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VP10 table testing - available right here!


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#1161 freneticamnesic

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 05:13 PM

lol



#1162 fuzzel

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 06:24 PM

What did you do that the flippers are THAT great to control?

Nothing really. Edit menu - "Set Default Physics". And set the flipper strength to 2200.
pure magic :)

#1163 hmueck

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 07:11 PM

lol


What did you expect? :pardon:

 

I'm no JimmyFingers... ;)


VPX0beta tables: 29cff786951ed9c1a70fc1fa47f5e3c1.png 0cecd68ffa2537a7262337834a05bbbe.png Finish them if you like!

#1164 hmueck

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 07:38 PM

Evil Fight by Playmatic 1980

fc446bb970ae33ea69e50709226d99ae.jpg

http://www.mediafire...Fight_1.0rc.rar

A lot of room for improvement here, but i couldn't be bothered. As always, my stuff is public domain. Do with it what you want.

 

 

VP8 table by destruk

ROM: http://www.vpforums....ds&showfile=548

Wheel: http://www.vpforums....&showfile=11100

UVP: http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=5357


VPX0beta tables: 29cff786951ed9c1a70fc1fa47f5e3c1.png 0cecd68ffa2537a7262337834a05bbbe.png Finish them if you like!

#1165 jimmyfingers

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 07:54 PM

What did you expect? :pardon:

 

I'm no JimmyFingers... ;)

 

Hah!  My ears are burning and now I'm curious though about the winky face :)

 

It's been mentioned a little bit throughout the various VP10 threads but the main culprit for the "grab and go" or "stop dead in your tracks" ball and flipper interaction via the in-lane is a friction issue between how it's set on the collidable in-lane objects and the flipper itself.  Most flipper settings have had the friction up between .6 and .8 which helps it grip and allow for some straighter shots when the ball has some speed through the in-lane and you will see slightly better back-hand angles too.  It is still good to have rubbers and flipper friction settings at least around .5 but that does still depend a little on what the table is at and people seem to be going with the lower than what was originally specified table friction values of .08. - 1.   

 

The tables that show the most problem around the flippers will have low to extremely low friction on the in-lane collidable objects (and sometimes 0, which should never be the setting for friction on any element in VP as it's counter-intuitive to the real world physics we're trying to model plus VP seems to do some extra strange things when friction is set at an absolute 0).  Why this happens is that if the collidable left or right in-lane wall is only at say 0 or .0015 or other settings that are left overs from VP9, it's essentially having no effect on the ball and when the ball comes through the in-lanes with some significant spin, resting and rolling on the in-lane does absolutely nothing to dissipate and manipulate the spin to what should be the direction of the ball roll (at least after a certain amount of time of contact).  So what ends up happening is that a ball with lot's of back spin coming through the in-lanes in this low friction scenario keeps all of it's back spin, hits the much higher friction rubber / flipper and jumps back or stops (some of this effect can and does happen in real machines and I had it happen to me this weekend several times).  The other effect is a ball with lot's of forward spin, again keeps the forward spin, hits the high friction flipper, and "bites" / "digs" in and grabs the surface via the spin to produce more rolling speed, so flies over top of the flipper.

 

In PMv5 everthing except for flippers was set at .3 for friction (hardcoded) so that the scenarios and difficulty / time consumption of creating and converting VP9 tables would not need to be undertaken.  Now that it's not hardcoded, a lot of these settings are being overlooked and weird collisions / interactions occurring.  A metal in-lane object should be fine enough at about .15 give or take a bit to largely get rid of the exaggerated effects described, combined with a flipper having a friction from around .6 or so and is still a recommended setting range.

 

Things work without any issue around that area in the latest VP10 Star Trek table because the in-lane is at .3 friction (a safe setting in a way that it mirrors exactly what PMv5 set for everything) but also has a lower than what really should be setting for the flipper at .25, making the two so similar that no interaction difference occurs between the two mediums.  A metal in-lane most definitely has less friction than the rubber of a flipper, however, because of the aspects described above, even if equal to the flipper won't produce any of the effects that could start to get to the more unrealistic levels of  "grab and go" or "stop dead in your tracks".  But, keeping the frictions for the two types of materials basically the same, is not going to accurately model the real world behaviour.  Most of the undesirable results have come from the friction not being correctly set at all on the in-lanes (large discrepancies with the flippers), as I say keeping values from VP9 without being modified and those were set in thousandths of units (i.e. typically around .0015 to .0040).  So that is the main culprit of all of this situation on other tables and to get a more decent balance of the legitimate situation of these behaviours but not overkill, reasonable starting point settings are around .125 to .2 for metal / plastic inlanes and about .5 to .8 for flipper friction both depending somewhat on the table friction.

 

It is true that a .3 friction for everything would seemingly be "safe" and a first step for a VP10 table in being that it is the same as PMv5 was, however, it's not taking advantage of the full way the physics interactions of various objects and the pinball should behave in the spirit of mimicking real life.  Even in PMv5 days, flippers were set higher in friction because - well because it was modifiable for starters - but also as the rubber on them would be one of the highest friction items on the entire table next to other rubber objects.  They were routinely at .6-.8 without getting these "grab and go" or "stop dead in your tracks" (because of the forced .3 on any in-lane objects / walls) so it's not really a fault of the flipper friction and if you're too low you are going to sacrifice some other aspects about ball angles / straight shots when the pinball has some speed.

 

My suggestion is stick within the recommended ranges I put forth and you'll get the best of both worlds.


Edited by jimmyfingers, 25 June 2015 - 08:27 PM.


#1166 hmueck

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 08:47 PM

What did you expect? :pardon:
 
I'm no JimmyFingers... ;)

Hah!  My ears are burning and now I'm curious though about the winky face :)

It means that you are a physics god and i'm the opposite of that. As your post clearly shows. :)
And i like winky faces. ;)
VPX0beta tables: 29cff786951ed9c1a70fc1fa47f5e3c1.png 0cecd68ffa2537a7262337834a05bbbe.png Finish them if you like!

#1167 jimmyfingers

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 08:52 PM

 

 

What did you expect? :pardon:
 
I'm no JimmyFingers... ;)

Hah!  My ears are burning and now I'm curious though about the winky face :)

It means that you are a physics god and i'm the opposite of that. As your post clearly shows. :)
And i like winky faces. ;)

 

Hey man thanks for the complement but you're not the opposite by a long stretch.  Taking the time to modify and choosing at least the PMv5 "friendly" .3 friction setting for the table objects / in-lanes of your Star Trek table puts you still in a high class of physics / physics settings awareness :)



#1168 hmueck

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 08:57 PM

but you're not the opposite by a long stretch.


No, it's true. You probably didn't read my previous post: all i did was: EDIT menu - "set default physics".
;)
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#1169 jimmyfingers

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 09:06 PM

 

but you're not the opposite by a long stretch.


No, it's true. You probably didn't read my previous post: all i did was: EDIT menu - "set default physics".
;)

 

Hah, then I've learned something too!  I did see that you said that you set the default physics via that option, but I never knew that that sets every object on the table vs. just the general table settings (slope min / max, table fricton, gravity, etc.) - I don't / haven't used it.  I'll have to check it out again as I typically just setup collections for similar objects and define physics settings on those in a somewhat global sense that way (metals, rubber posts, rubber "bands", etc.) but that option is good to still consider and could still help out especially if people don't want to get quite as granular as I do.  

 

You converted Star Trek from a regular VP9 table too, right?  Not a PMv5 one?



#1170 hmueck

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 10:03 PM

You converted Star Trek from a regular VP9 table too, right?  Not a PMv5 one?


Yes, i used the original from JPSalas, no nightmod, physmod,...


About the "set default physics": you have to select all table elements, then it resets all settings. I just draw a border around the table to select everything.
VPX0beta tables: 29cff786951ed9c1a70fc1fa47f5e3c1.png 0cecd68ffa2537a7262337834a05bbbe.png Finish them if you like!

#1171 hauntfreaks

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 11:54 PM

oops wrong thread


Edited by hauntfreaks, 01 July 2015 - 01:13 AM.

 26794541816_30ca1cca80_o.gif 43109635392_fc11af1a57_o.gif


#1172 hmueck

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 12:31 AM

Atleta by Inder 1991. Happy testing...

cea18b4e20452d5ad942b6df989d23f4.jpg
http://www.mediafire...tleta_1.0rc.rar
VPX0beta tables: 29cff786951ed9c1a70fc1fa47f5e3c1.png 0cecd68ffa2537a7262337834a05bbbe.png Finish them if you like!

#1173 toxie

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 08:54 AM

Thanks! I somehow like these Inder tables a lot.. They have a very specific gameplay and "feeling"..



#1174 Xendo

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 03:02 PM

With beta 2094 on Kingpin I am getting serious lag when the ball is in the outhole... if ballsave is active the ball is unplayable until the ball in the outhole clears or something.



#1175 toxie

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 04:17 PM

is the legacy flag set for the kicker in the outhole? if not, please do so.



#1176 Xendo

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 05:01 PM

is the legacy flag set for the kicker in the outhole? if not, please do so.

 

That seems to have done the trick.  Thanks!



#1177 hmueck

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 05:57 PM

And to make sure you're all not getting spoiled, here's an example of a very bad VP10 conversion. No updated anything:

28f5ae26fd510d568de3a6102d52db90.jpg
Attached File  BlackBelt_build01.rar   700.26KB   195 downloads
You might think it looks nice in the small screenshot, but beware... ;)
VPX0beta tables: 29cff786951ed9c1a70fc1fa47f5e3c1.png 0cecd68ffa2537a7262337834a05bbbe.png Finish them if you like!

#1178 toxie

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 06:33 AM

One more thing (just because it came up recently) regarding the primitives:

 

If you only need these for the 'looks' of the table, so no physical interaction required with the ball, make sure to have the 'toy' flag enabled in the primitive options.

Just disabling the 'collidable' is good already, but will still cause quiet some computational overhead internally, as the script is allowed to change this one any time, whereas the 'toy' flag will disable the physics completely and is not changeable in the script.



#1179 lodger

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 11:45 AM

Hauntfreaks, just wanted to provide some feedback on Evel Knevel- overall plays really nicely. the "lights off" doesnt have much contrast with lights on,it might be helpful to increase the intensity of the lights and add more contrast to the unlit lights (i.e. the super lights can be hard to tell what is/isnt lit). I also get a problem sometimes where if hit at a certain angle, the ball will bounce endlessly between the slingshots..I'm not sure if changing slingshot force might be helpful here. thanks for making this awesome table!


berzerk2_0logo.png

http://www.vpforums....&showfile=11819

Version 2.0- Released 2/27/16


#1180 hauntfreaks

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Posted 03 July 2015 - 07:44 AM

Hauntfreaks, just wanted to provide some feedback on Evel Knevel- overall plays really nicely. the "lights off" doesnt have much contrast with lights on,it might be helpful to increase the intensity of the lights and add more contrast to the unlit lights (i.e. the super lights can be hard to tell what is/isnt lit). I also get a problem sometimes where if hit at a certain angle, the ball will bounce endlessly between the slingshots..I'm not sure if changing slingshot force might be helpful here. thanks for making this awesome table!

 

Evel Knievel Updated (same link)

- Playfield lights,  I had passthrough checked, now unchecked and working correctly

- Slingshots had identical force values, I notice on other tables if the ball would volly and i lowered or raised one of the sling force values it would stop, now seems to be fixed... 

- also played with some of the other lighting (trying to learn more techniques) 

 

Lodger thanks for your testing results


Edited by hauntfreaks, 03 July 2015 - 07:51 AM.

 26794541816_30ca1cca80_o.gif 43109635392_fc11af1a57_o.gif