126 replies to this topic

[fuzzel]

If I read through all this here I'm pretty sure that's a driver issue. Just a bit of background information for you all:

As you know VP uses DX9 for rendering. One big problem of DX9 is that you can't access the depth buffer. But we need the depth buffer information from the static rendering phase to update the z information of the dynamic rendering phase. 

Even if DX9 doesn't support depth buffer access Nvidia and AMD added GPU hacks to circumvent this problem (see here https://aras-p.info/...D9GPUHacks.html). VP uses the INTZ method to read/write the depth buffer as a texture.

The INTZ method seems to work well for Intel and AMD cards and we use an extra NVidia library to get the same for Nvidia cards.

Now it looks like that AMD has dropped the support of this INTZ GPU hack or there is a bug in the driver. I read somewhere that the game GTA4 uses the same INTZ hack. Would be interesting to check if this works on newer RX-cards.

Anyway I searched the net but couldn't find any new information about these hacks and the new RX-cards. But even if I find some information it's not possible for me to check the new behavior because I don't have such new hardware.

[Dexjee]

Dexjee try turning off reflections on those 4 items in layer 7 and see if the table is fixed for you.

works! MM trolls are looking good again. Thanks!

 

@loganchihuahua: any chance you can take a look at Spiderman VPW? I played around with anything that looked like a playfield object but I could not get it to appear again.

[wiesshund]

If I read through all this here I'm pretty sure that's a driver issue. Just a bit of background information for you all:

As you know VP uses DX9 for rendering. One big problem of DX9 is that you can't access the depth buffer. But we need the depth buffer information from the static rendering phase to update the z information of the dynamic rendering phase. 

Even if DX9 doesn't support depth buffer access Nvidia and AMD added GPU hacks to circumvent this problem (see here https://aras-p.info/...D9GPUHacks.html). VP uses the INTZ method to read/write the depth buffer as a texture.

The INTZ method seems to work well for Intel and AMD cards and we use an extra NVidia library to get the same for Nvidia cards.

Now it looks like that AMD has dropped the support of this INTZ GPU hack or there is a bug in the driver. I read somewhere that the game GTA4 uses the same INTZ hack. Would be interesting to check if this works on newer RX-cards.

Anyway I searched the net but couldn't find any new information about these hacks and the new RX-cards. But even if I find some information it's not possible for me to check the new behavior because I don't have such new hardware.

 

Ok, how could we get a dialog open with AMD?

going through the user channels is going to be the reverse of productive i think

but there must be communication channels for software developers?

 

i cant find dick except for some white papers on it

 

Anyone here have a radeon 5000 series?
do these show the same issue?

 

I can not see AMD purposely dropping that, as an ass load of DX9/DX10 game engines made use of that, games that are still heavily played
and i cant see AMD saying fuck it, let's let nVidia play what we cant, so that everyone rolls off to buy nVidia.

 

If we could get a dialog open, they may very well not need to look at VPX itself, if they checked their drivers and found depth as texture was forgotten or turned off  or something really simple

[loganchihuahua]

 

Dexjee try turning off reflections on those 4 items in layer 7 and see if the table is fixed for you.

works! MM trolls are looking good again. Thanks!

 

@loganchihuahua: any chance you can take a look at Spiderman VPW? I played around with anything that looked like a playfield object but I could not get it to appear again.

 

For spiderman.  Select Layer 11. Manually click on the Pincab Bottom. Right click on it and unlock. Right click on it and Add Remove collection. Remove from VRCAb.  Then you can edit it. Uncheck visible.  Table will work then.

 

If I read through all this here I'm pretty sure that's a driver issue. Just a bit of background information for you all:

As you know VP uses DX9 for rendering. One big problem of DX9 is that you can't access the depth buffer. But we need the depth buffer information from the static rendering phase to update the z information of the dynamic rendering phase. 

Even if DX9 doesn't support depth buffer access Nvidia and AMD added GPU hacks to circumvent this problem (see here https://aras-p.info/...D9GPUHacks.html). VP uses the INTZ method to read/write the depth buffer as a texture.

The INTZ method seems to work well for Intel and AMD cards and we use an extra NVidia library to get the same for Nvidia cards.

Now it looks like that AMD has dropped the support of this INTZ GPU hack or there is a bug in the driver. I read somewhere that the game GTA4 uses the same INTZ hack. Would be interesting to check if this works on newer RX-cards.

Anyway I searched the net but couldn't find any new information about these hacks and the new RX-cards. But even if I find some information it's not possible for me to check the new behavior because I don't have such new hardware.

 

Ok, how could we get a dialog open with AMD?

going through the user channels is going to be the reverse of productive i think

but there must be communication channels for software developers?

 

i cant find dick except for some white papers on it

 

Anyone here have a radeon 5000 series?
do these show the same issue?

 

I can not see AMD purposely dropping that, as an ass load of DX9/DX10 game engines made use of that, games that are still heavily played
and i cant see AMD saying fuck it, let's let nVidia play what we cant, so that everyone rolls off to buy nVidia.

 

If we could get a dialog open, they may very well not need to look at VPX itself, if they checked their drivers and found depth as texture was forgotten or turned off  or something really simple

 

I will try and submit another bug summarizing this. Dexjee if you can too, the more that report the bugs to AMD maybe they will address.

[godgives]

The fix for medieval work great. I was wondering if people would look into these two tables. Tales from the crypto and the walking dead. Walking dead table is completely black.

[wiesshund]

The fix for medieval work great. I was wondering if people would look into these two tables. Tales from the crypto and the walking dead. Walking dead table is completely black.

 

Wondering if people who?

He gave you all the info you need above to investigate most any table.
 

Not fair to ask him to do all the work, he just wants to play his cab

[Dexjee]

For spiderman.  Select Layer 11. Manually click on the Pincab Bottom. Right click on it and unlock. Right click on it and Add Remove collection. Remove from VRCAb.  Then you can edit it. Uncheck visible.  Table will work then.

thanks - that works! I tried to remove the whole vrcab group but that didn't work out. how did you find out the invisible playfield was related to the "Pincab Bottom" object?

 

I will try and submit another bug summarizing this. Dexjee if you can too, the more that report the bugs to AMD maybe they will address.

sure, I can try that again. my last bug report on their public forum was completely ignored. But I did not have the background information about the INTZ GPU hack at the time.

[loganchihuahua]

The fix for medieval work great. I was wondering if people would look into these two tables. Tales from the crypto and the walking dead. Walking dead table is completely black.

God gives.  Please fill out a bug report with the above info from Fuzzle. I linked this forum and the link he provided about the hacks and then mentioned the INtz GPU hack. I figure the more of us with this problem that report it the more likely they will respond. 

 

As for Walking Dead,.  Search for Primitive302 and uncheck visible.  Please though report the bug. Thanks. 

 

For spiderman.  Select Layer 11. Manually click on the Pincab Bottom. Right click on it and unlock. Right click on it and Add Remove collection. Remove from VRCAb.  Then you can edit it. Uncheck visible.  Table will work then.

thanks - that works! I tried to remove the whole vrcab group but that didn't work out. how did you find out the invisible playfield was related to the "Pincab Bottom" object?

 

 

 

I will try and submit another bug summarizing this. Dexjee if you can too, the more that report the bugs to AMD maybe they will address.

sure, I can try that again. my last bug report on their public forum was completely ignored. But I did not have the background information about the INTZ GPU hack at the time.

 

Dexjee, your welcome. I saw that the pincab bottom was tied to the vrcab group and most likely thought it could be the culprit.  So i disconnected it from the group to see its properties and tried it. I suppose you could rejoin it to the group now and lock it again after unchecking visible. Alot of it is trial and error. Like medieval took a long time. Thanks for filling out another report. I filled out one before too without the new info, so i figured a new one could help with the correct info.

Edited by loganchihuahua, 19 October 2021 - 10:53 PM.

[wiesshund]

Logan

If you hold SHIFT and click a given object

you should be able to select it, with out the rest of the group and be able to edit it only
with out having to remove from group

@Fuzzel

Does this doc provide any useful info?

 

Advanced-DX9-Capabilities-for-ATI-Radeon-Cards_v2.pdf (netdna-cdn.com)

 

What about RESZ ?

 

 

Multisampled Depth Buffer Resolve:

RESZ Description: Allows the resolve of a multisampled depth buffer into a depth stencil texture.

This capability is often useful for post-process effects and other rendering operations requiring access to depth.

The resolve operation copies the depth value from the first sample only into the resolved depth stencil texture.

The RESZ interface also works with non-multisampled depth buffers to preserve orthogonality between multisampled and non-multisampled rendering.

In this case the resolve is effectively a simply copy from the source depth buffer to the specified destination depth texture format will be performed.

The RESZ interface is a good alternative to use for cards that don’t support INTZ

[loganchihuahua]

 

Logan

If you hold SHIFT and click a given object

you should be able to select it, with out the rest of the group and be able to edit it only
with out having to remove from group

@Fuzzel

Does this doc provide any useful info?

 

Advanced-DX9-Capabilities-for-ATI-Radeon-Cards_v2.pdf (netdna-cdn.com)

 

What about RESZ ?

 

 

Multisampled Depth Buffer Resolve:

RESZ Description: Allows the resolve of a multisampled depth buffer into a depth stencil texture.

This capability is often useful for post-process effects and other rendering operations requiring access to depth.

The resolve operation copies the depth value from the first sample only into the resolved depth stencil texture.

The RESZ interface also works with non-multisampled depth buffers to preserve orthogonality between multisampled and non-multisampled rendering.

In this case the resolve is effectively a simply copy from the source depth buffer to the specified destination depth texture format will be performed.

The RESZ interface is a good alternative to use for cards that don’t support INTZ

 

Thank you for this. Hopefully this could help things.  Also thank you for the Shift trick. Saves a lot of work and also edits to the table which i am trying to minimize.

[willo77]

Is there any update on this? Just built a cab with a 6700 XT and see exactly this issues?

Edited by willo77, 02 January 2022 - 06:43 PM.

[Dexjee]

for anyone wondering about the new VPW IJ release:

the same workaround as spiderman applies. Check layer 9 and look for "PinCab_Bottom". Uncheck "visible".

Save the table and enjoy a visible playfield

 

regarding the overall problem: as this is related to DX9 and we already have VPVR which is based on GL, is it possible to create a version of VPVR without the VR part?

In VPVR the problem does not exist - i guess because it does not use DX.

[wiesshund]

for anyone wondering about the new VPW IJ release:

the same workaround as spiderman applies. Check layer 9 and look for "PinCab_Bottom". Uncheck "visible".

Save the table and enjoy a visible playfield

 

regarding the overall problem: as this is related to DX9 and we already have VPVR which is based on GL, is it possible to create a version of VPVR without the VR part?

In VPVR the problem does not exist - i guess because it does not use DX.

 

It is the DX depth buffer

And the new hardware is probably, driver wise, not super concerned with DX8 or 9 compliances in full.
GL or Vulkan probably dont have the issue, but i dont know how easy it would be for Toxie and Fuzzel to change the renderer.
I am guessing that if it were real simple, they would have moved to DX11 a while ago

[wiesshund]

Any traction on this?

[wiesshund]

If I read through all this here I'm pretty sure that's a driver issue. Just a bit of background information for you all:

As you know VP uses DX9 for rendering. One big problem of DX9 is that you can't access the depth buffer. But we need the depth buffer information from the static rendering phase to update the z information of the dynamic rendering phase. 

Even if DX9 doesn't support depth buffer access Nvidia and AMD added GPU hacks to circumvent this problem (see here https://aras-p.info/...D9GPUHacks.html). VP uses the INTZ method to read/write the depth buffer as a texture.

The INTZ method seems to work well for Intel and AMD cards and we use an extra NVidia library to get the same for Nvidia cards.

Now it looks like that AMD has dropped the support of this INTZ GPU hack or there is a bug in the driver. I read somewhere that the game GTA4 uses the same INTZ hack. Would be interesting to check if this works on newer RX-cards.

Anyway I searched the net but couldn't find any new information about these hacks and the new RX-cards. But even if I find some information it's not possible for me to check the new behavior because I don't have such new hardware.

 

GTA4 on RX6700
i cant see a depth buffer issue?

 

[ludespeedny]

Could anyone help me out with Whitewater 1.1 showing a pink texture by the lost mine, as well as LOTR Valinor edition table texture missing, as well as IJ VPW mod 1.1.

 

Thanks for any help!

 

*edit: FIXED IJ and LOTR by the posts above, disable pincab_bottom visible. Whitewater still has issues.

 

p.s. I am a vpx newbie, but coming from future pinball. I have a 6800xt if it helps.

 

Edited by ludespeedny, 05 February 2022 - 08:14 PM.

[ludespeedny]

I also get black in front of the castle on MM here: https://www.vpforums...0#commentsStart

Anyone know how to fix this?

[ludespeedny]

For Cuphead Pro, there is a leaf switch 1 and 2, disable visible on those fixes the issues w/ Mug and Cup targets.

[ludespeedny]

Whitewater fix: layer 7 - wall 14 - side/top uncheck visible

[ludespeedny]

For MM - Bigus mod, fix: Layer_1 - Ramp 1 - Uncheck Visible