159 replies to this topic

[jpsalas]

Yes, the primitives in 10.6 have the same "elasticity falloff" as the rubbers, so they can be used instead of other objects. They can be used as rubbers or any other material.

 

I have already made a revision of these settings using the Elasticity Falloff to the walls which mostly were used in my tables for plastics, metals and wood. These kind of objects will have in 10.7 little elasticity falloff too. But I will not make these settings available until 10.7 is released, as there may be still changes in 10.7 that may need further adjustments, But for now the changes are minimal in these materials (plastic, metal wood). In the tables I'm updating now using 10.7 (mostly my original tables), I have returned to use walls to make the rubbers, as they are easier to mold the way I want, but they still have the same rubber settings. I think walls are much easier to use than rubber objects or primitives.

[batch]

Thanks JP, I just want to use the settings you planned to use with VP10.7

 

But I think most of VP users are still playing tables with VP10.6, so, as primitives have the "Elasticity Falloff" option, I want to try to use them instead of walls for this table

[wiesshund]

Yea, there are a good number of things out there telling people not to try the 10.7 beta, so i think we have a lot less people trying it, than we could

 

I mean yea, it is beta and has some issues still, but mostly pertaining to editing
as far as just playing tables, i have not really had many issues, and have had none as far as simply playing goes for quite a few revisions

[batch]

What I can do is finish this table with VP10.6 using primitives

 

Then I'll do a VP10.7 version using walls, so that we can see behaviour differences

 

But, for information, I'm very slow !

[wiesshund]

What I can do is finish this table with VP10.6 using primitives

 

Then I'll do a VP10.7 version using walls, so that we can see behaviour differences

 

But, for information, I'm very slow !

 

You should get same behavior
but faster easier assembly time, as walls are easier to do than prims
I think as far as graphics performance walls are faster also?
 

[batch]

Primitives are already done, I use those from my table "Nemesis" and just have to edit diameter for RubberPosts and length for RubberBands

 

What will be long is the rest of the table and playfield & plastics redraw

[kiwi]

Out of curiosity, have you tried to control the angular momentum (AngmomX, Y, Z) of the ball?  limiting this factor should reduce ball spinning.

 

I use the physics setting similar to the recommended one,

and with your ball speed control formula, modified with angular momentum,

I can limit the strange accelerations of the ball.

[jpsalas]

Hey Kiwi!

 

Could you post your angular momentum control code so I can try it? Thanks

[jpsalas]

I just saw that AngVelX/Y/Z and AngMomX/Y/Z were added to VPX 10.4 I don't try to change the default physics that's why I haven't noticed those values, or I simply forgot about them .

 

In my physics, the way I control the ball spin is by reducing the friction on all the objects, still the ball spins and the flippers grab the ball if it spins and you see the effect of the rubber on the ball, but it is not exaggerated. I don't feel the VPX physics need to be changed, to me it is all a matter of adjusting the parameters. This physics 3.0 is the result of my tests. I have updated the physics for the VPX beta 10.7 as the walls have now elasticity falloff, this way all I used to to with walls in 3.0, like metals, plastics and wood will have some falloff. For 10.7 I'll be able to use walls to make the physical rubbers that will collide with the ball, and the rubber objects will go back to being an ornament object, since this way I can separate the post rubber from the long part of the rubber. I'll make un update here of the physics 3.0 when 10.7 is released together with some tables. But notice that the tables will behave the same in 10.6 than in 10.7, only that it will be easier to make the physical rubbers using walls (as I used to do before )

[kiwi]

Now that you've found the parameters, maybe you don't need this, but nevertheless ...

Const maxmom = 300 'max ball momentum

Sub RollingTimer_Timer()
    Dim momfactorx, momfactory, momfactorz

        ' ball momentum control
        If BOT(b).AngMomX AND BOT(b).AngMomY AND BOT(b).AngMomZ <> 0 Then
            momfactorx = ABS(maxmom / BOT(b).AngMomX)
            momfactory = ABS(maxmom / BOT(b).AngMomY)
            momfactorz = ABS(maxmom / BOT(b).AngMomZ)
            If momfactorx < 1 Then
                BOT(b).AngMomX = BOT(b).AngMomX * momfactorx
                BOT(b).AngMomY = BOT(b).AngMomY * momfactorx
                BOT(b).AngMomZ = BOT(b).AngMomZ * momfactorx
            End If
            If momfactory < 1 Then
                BOT(b).AngMomX = BOT(b).AngMomX * momfactory
                BOT(b).AngMomY = BOT(b).AngMomY * momfactory
                BOT(b).AngMomZ = BOT(b).AngMomZ * momfactory
            End If
            If momfactorz < 1 Then
                BOT(b).AngMomX = BOT(b).AngMomX * momfactorz
                BOT(b).AngMomY = BOT(b).AngMomY * momfactorz
                BOT(b).AngMomZ = BOT(b).AngMomZ * momfactorz
            End If
        End If

 

These are tests I did with Baywatch, I saw that the AngMon can reach values even at 6 numbers,

Const maxmom = 300 'max ball momentum

with a limit lower than 300 the ramps start to be difficult to do, to use lower values you should reduce the friction of the table.

[wiesshund]

I just saw that AngVelX/Y/Z and AngMomX/Y/Z were added to VPX 10.4 I don't try to change the default physics that's why I haven't noticed those values, or I simply forgot about them .

 

In my physics, the way I control the ball spin is by reducing the friction on all the objects, still the ball spins and the flippers grab the ball if it spins and you see the effect of the rubber on the ball, but it is not exaggerated. I don't feel the VPX physics need to be changed, to me it is all a matter of adjusting the parameters. This physics 3.0 is the result of my tests. I have updated the physics for the VPX beta 10.7 as the walls have now elasticity falloff, this way all I used to to with walls in 3.0, like metals, plastics and wood will have some falloff. For 10.7 I'll be able to use walls to make the physical rubbers that will collide with the ball, and the rubber objects will go back to being an ornament object, since this way I can separate the post rubber from the long part of the rubber. I'll make un update here of the physics 3.0 when 10.7 is released together with some tables. But notice that the tables will behave the same in 10.6 than in 10.7, only that it will be easier to make the physical rubbers using walls (as I used to do before )

Side tracking but know what would be sweet?

 

Being able to select points on the rubbers and define the material between points
pick _rubberbands_long for the long span, pick _posts for the post area

That and having a configurable deflection animation based off the points would be nice too

[jpsalas]

Now that you've found the parameters, maybe you don't need this, but nevertheless ...

Const maxmom = 300 'max ball momentum

Sub RollingTimer_Timer()
    Dim momfactorx, momfactory, momfactorz

        ' ball momentum control
        If BOT(b).AngMomX AND BOT(b).AngMomY AND BOT(b).AngMomZ <> 0 Then
            momfactorx = ABS(maxmom / BOT(b).AngMomX)
            momfactory = ABS(maxmom / BOT(b).AngMomY)
            momfactorz = ABS(maxmom / BOT(b).AngMomZ)
            If momfactorx < 1 Then
                BOT(b).AngMomX = BOT(b).AngMomX * momfactorx
                BOT(b).AngMomY = BOT(b).AngMomY * momfactorx
                BOT(b).AngMomZ = BOT(b).AngMomZ * momfactorx
            End If
            If momfactory < 1 Then
                BOT(b).AngMomX = BOT(b).AngMomX * momfactory
                BOT(b).AngMomY = BOT(b).AngMomY * momfactory
                BOT(b).AngMomZ = BOT(b).AngMomZ * momfactory
            End If
            If momfactorz < 1 Then
                BOT(b).AngMomX = BOT(b).AngMomX * momfactorz
                BOT(b).AngMomY = BOT(b).AngMomY * momfactorz
                BOT(b).AngMomZ = BOT(b).AngMomZ * momfactorz
            End If
        End If

These are tests I did with Baywatch, I saw that the AngMon can reach values even at 6 numbers,

Const maxmom = 300 'max ball momentum

with a limit lower than 300 the ramps start to be difficult to do, to use lower values you should reduce the friction of the table.

 

Thanks Kiwi. I'll try that

 

 

 

 

Side tracking but know what would be sweet?

 

Being able to select points on the rubbers and define the material between points
pick _rubberbands_long for the long span, pick _posts for the post area

That and having a configurable deflection animation based off the points would be nice too

 

 

That should be ideal, but I guess it won't be for a while, But it should be nice to suggest it to toxie and fuzzel

[wiesshund]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Side tracking but know what would be sweet?

 

Being able to select points on the rubbers and define the material between points
pick _rubberbands_long for the long span, pick _posts for the post area

That and having a configurable deflection animation based off the points would be nice too

 

 

That should be ideal, but I guess it won't be for a while, But it should be nice to suggest it to toxie and fuzzel

 

 

Maybe, but you could probably explain it better?

[jpsalas]

 

Maybe, but you could probably explain it better?

 

 

This means to be able to adjust the properties of different parts of the rubbers, the ones that are long and the part of the rubbers around the posts. The rubbers around the posts are harder and thus they have less falloff, while the longer parts of the rubbers have greater falloff (this is they absorb more the balls strength and the ball's bounce back is not so strong as in the posts). This is what I adjust using walls around the rubbers, as the ball will hits the walls and bounce back according to their materials (or properties). In this 10.6 version of physics 3.0 I use different rubbers on each segment to get this behaviour, but in the latest 10.7 beta I use again walls, because they have gotten now a falloff property just like rubbers.

 

This should be similar of what we can do with walls, which we can configure a segment to be a slingshot or a normal wall. If we could do that to the points of rubbers we could get some animation when the ball hits that part of the rubber. 

[wiesshund]

 

 

Maybe, but you could probably explain it better?

 

 

This means to be able to adjust the properties of different parts of the rubbers, the ones that are long and the part of the rubbers around the posts. The rubbers around the posts are harder and thus they have less falloff, while the longer parts of the rubbers have greater falloff (this is they absorb more the balls strength and the ball's bounce back is not so strong as in the posts). This is what I adjust using walls around the rubbers, as the ball will hits the walls and bounce back according to their materials (or properties). In this 10.6 version of physics 3.0 I use different rubbers on each segment to get this behaviour, but in the latest 10.7 beta I use again walls, because they have gotten now a falloff property just like rubbers.

 

This should be similar of what we can do with walls, which we can configure a segment to be a slingshot or a normal wall. If we could do that to the points of rubbers we could get some animation when the ball hits that part of the rubber. 

 

 

I was thinking...

 

On slingshots
On a real table, if the ball hits it pretty close to the actuator, then it's a good solid kick

but if it hits above or below, because that part is going to pop out weaker, and also is going to pop out at an angle.
Would it make sense to make slingshots in 3 sections? assuming they wont chain fire (i suppose some kind of In Action check could be make?)

All 3 would of course reuse the same animating parts, but the center slingshot could kick harder and have less dispersion

with the upper and lower parts having less kick and more dispersion

 

 

just an idea that possibly makes no sense to bother with

[rob046]

VP is crashing for me when I go to import the VPP. Am I missing something about installation? Does more need done? I've tried 32 & 64 bit versions of 10.6 & 10.7

Edited by rob046, 20 March 2021 - 05:50 PM.

[jpsalas]

VP is crashing for me when I go to import the VPP. Am I missing something about installation? Does more need done? I've tried 32 & 64 bit versions of 10.6 & 10.7

 

Use the latest 10.6.1 for now, and only 32 bits.

[jpsalas]

UPDATE 3.01

 

3.0.1 Updated 31.03.2021

- Adjusted some materials for VPX 10.7, as walls have now elasticity falloff and they can be used for any kind of objects, being rubbers, metals, plastics or wood. This update only include the materials, the playfield and flipper physics, and a small demo table with some rubbers made with walls.

 

So this update is just a small adjustment to the materials to include the new elasticity falloff for the Wall object. This makes the rubbers parts much easier to make/build using walls than using rubber objects. The physics are the same, only that now any king of object will have an elasticity falloff. The only thing I have done is to reduce default the elasticity falloff, which was set before to the max. 

 

I feel VPX 10.7 is quite stable and I'll be uploading some tables updated for 10.7. The only big issue that I see for now with the current beta 10.7 is the use of OGG and MP3 files from inside of the VPX file which the volume is very high and not all the parameters from PlaySound seem to work. I used a workaround in my tables for this issue. The SSF problems with 10.7 are being worked on, and all in all I feel 10.7 can be used to test some tables

 

When 10.7 is released I'll update these tables to remove these workarounds for the volume and the songs not repeating. 

[toxie]

Thanks JP. I desperately hope to find some motivation and time to finish up these MP3/OGG changes.

[jpsalas]

Thanks JP. I desperately hope to find some motivation and time to finish up these MP3/OGG changes.

 

Just take your time. Tomorrow I'll upload the Serious Sam tables which now use OGG files for the music, as they sound much better and use less space. And by setting the volume in the script to 0.0065 they sound nice to me. The PlaySound "song", -1 does not repeat the song, so I have added a timer that plays the song again when it finish to play, so for now the tables will be playable. Later if you find a way to make those OGG and MP3 sound with the right volume and maybe with all those PlaySound parameters working, then I'll update the tables