87 replies to this topic

[bigus1]

Keep your hair on mate.There's no shit piling around me. And who the fuck are you anyway? Who made you the Defender of the Faith? We want this and we want that, who the fuck is "we"? I don't give a rat's arse what you think about me. I know that I don't hold a candle to JP, and I've asked folks to tone it down, but you don't seem to understand English. You lose the plot when your credibility is in question. Total rebuild is a pretty vague description. All I've been able to decipher from published info is that a table was built upon a vpx conversion of someone else's vp9 table, and that someone doesn't rate a mention on your credits. How does that differ from what you're bleating-on about. I acknowledged the submitter from the outset, but I now realize the table is also a vp9 conversion, and gave credit accordingly in my last post. Cue the hissy fit.

[balisaan]

 

 

Physics changes and lighting changes are personal mods that you do to your own tables

So what was the latest TOM release all about?  I have stacks of tables with minor tweaks, like the rest of you, that I wouldn't even think of releasing. I can tell the difference between significant and trivial changes, or things that anyone can do and things that few seem to have discovered.

When I see problems reported on 'original' releases and nothing gets done, I class that as 'left unfixed' - it's what I'm talking about when I use that term, and often what alerts me to a problem in the first place. I love fixing because it's a challenge and a mystery. A problem that I see with group projects is that often no single member or the submitter has all the required skills to update/repair the tables, so once the group disbands, that's the end of that table's evolution.

I see myself as providing a service when I do a fix. Who doesn't want a properly working Indiana Jones? The authors are gone, so who else is going to fix it? Who wants to have a crack at these complex tables? Same with BDK. And all the others that I've released as the only fully working versions. I sound full of myself at this point, but that's the reality. I'm not taking, I'm giving. "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" sounds fitting.

 

I fired-up Defender and, when I hit escape and saw the table info, I saw that gtxjoe is the original author. Folks aren't really helping my cause by feeding me misinformation or part info. I guess I can't rely on trust is the lesson here. So Thanks gtxjoe for your fine work on Defender. And Tom, lead by example and fix the credits on Ice Fever and show me how it's done. I'm really unsure of the 'proper' procedure. I'm still ignorant about what's required concerning table history.

 

Thanks to all that have chimed-in to offer support, but please don't get too heavy-handed with the praise. It really makes me squirm. I still have much to learn.

 

The last TOM release involved a physics tweak, partial rebuild, and a complete table mechanism sound replacement set, as I recall, recorded from a real example with professional equipment, replacing a bunch of "used on every table" set of sounds that aren't really the most accurate sounds.

 

The Table Info pane tends to not get filled in as much as it should. Many authors use it, but some don't. A lot of them also put it in the script as comments near the top. In the latter case, and if they're using Table Info then it goes there too, they provide a full list of credits of who's worked on the table, or who's work they worked with. They then put this information in the Download Info page when they upload the table.

 

I maintain: The reason some of these people seem to be demanding a very high standard from you is that they want to make sure you're doing all the crediting you're supposed to, since you started your table modding career exceptionally badly on that front, and many authors do it without needing community help figuring out who to credit. And, generally speaking, you probably don't need to do things like credit the Ball Rolling Sound routine (it's in every table), although drilling that deep to credit everyone involved might actually do a lot to help reduce the heat.

 

Look at where you downloaded the table, see who's credited on the download page, and credit everyone who was credited in that release, starting with the person who actually uploaded and working your way down. Look in the script, and if anyone is mentioned there but not mentioned in the download page, and credit them too, just to be sure. Credit in the download page, credit in the top of the table script, and credit in the Table Info.

 

Thats a very nice idea LynninDenver thank you.  However it sounds like a lot of work and potentially if one author is accidentally missed out among the many they may take it personally and throw their toys out of the cot.  Respectfully and I don't mean to sound like a dick, aside from the authors involved does anyone ever make a point to read the credits?  Perhaps as with award acceptance speeches when some may say...'thanks to all involved, you know who you are.'  Would that suffice?

[rothbauerw]

So what was the latest TOM release all about?

I'm not sure you want to go here. It's not even a close comparison to what you do to a table.

 

Let's see, where do we start:

 

• Fleep spent 100's of hours recording new sounds from real TOM and other similar era machines, scripting SSF and randomization, mastering and remastering sounds.  There were also several real machine owners the recorded sounds and video of gameplay (CalleV for one).
• Skitso redid all the lighting, updating textures, and adjusting LUT's
• Bord built a primitive playfield.
• I personally spend a couple hundred hours rebuilding the physics from scratch (engaging with the community to gather feedback on making flipper physics more realistic, working with real table owners to simulate behaviors specific to the table, making sure various shots feed the flippers or ramps properly, redoing the captive balls for more realistic physics, adding physics to handle the trap door, and overall gameplay difficulty rivals a real machine), completely rebuilding the trunk mechanics to eliminate bugs in the animation, animating and adjusting ball movements related the magnets, shooter lane, and ramps, building physical subways and troughs, adding in FSS/VR support, and supporting the other collaborators on any bugs or other enhancements made to the table.
• 3rdAxis for LUT support, testing, mod creation (tiger saw, blades, etc) and a ton of other work I can't remember at the moment (sorry 3rdaxis ... there was just so much we all did and can't remember everything, but I'm sure it's in the change log).
• And much more...

In the end, almost everything on the table was new except for the models.  I would guess significantly more time was invested on this than in the original table creation.  The original table authors are included in the credits.

[LynnInDenver]

Thats a very nice idea LynninDenver thank you.  However it sounds like a lot of work and potentially if one author is accidentally missed out among the many they may take it personally and throw their toys out of the cot.  Respectfully and I don't mean to sound like a dick, aside from the authors involved does anyone ever make a point to read the credits?  Perhaps as with award acceptance speeches when some may say...'thanks to all involved, you know who you are.'  Would that suffice?

Generally, the full credits as provided in the previous table should be enough. "Based on this table by X, y, and z, as converted from this VP9 by k". I'm really just letting Bigus know that some of the people who have been calling him out would probably be comforted faster by overdoing it a tad in the process.

 

Keep your hair on mate.There's no shit piling around me. And who the fuck are you anyway? Who made you the Defender of the Faith? We want this and we want that, who the fuck is "we"? I don't give a rat's arse what you think about me. I know that I don't hold a candle to JP, and I've asked folks to tone it down, but you don't seem to understand English. You lose the plot when your credibility is in question. Total rebuild is a pretty vague description. All I've been able to decipher from published info is that a table was built upon a vpx conversion of someone else's vp9 table, and that someone doesn't rate a mention on your credits. How does that differ from what you're bleating-on about. I acknowledged the submitter from the outset, but I now realize the table is also a vp9 conversion, and gave credit accordingly in my last post. Cue the hissy fit.

And here's where we get into why it's still an actual issue. I've just been pointing out the standard you're being held to, and WHY it might seem like you're being held to a higher standard than everyone else. You've set an expectation that you're not crediting previous authors (let's be honest, you were REALLY BAD in your first half-dozen releases), so the demand from one segment is on the face higher in terms of "please credit these people properly". And as we're trying to point out that this isn't something that you can actually slack on right now (because they're watching), and you're starting to take it personally again.

 

So, let me lay it out a bit plainer. Credit as the table you're modifying is credited. If someone complains about the credits being incomplete, look at what's missed, add it in, and move on. Make efforts to make sure the credits are complete in the future. If you're unsure, go ahead and make a note of it in the credits that you're not sure you've gotten everyone.

[balisaan]

Just on the subject of credits, if I may offer an alternative perspective and something for all to think about.  Our friend Armyaviation being so upset over this incident highlights my point exactly in that seeking happiness via external validation is never recommended!  Not only is one setting themselves up to be at the mercy of the environment but also controlled because seeking external validation and praise is at it's core expecting the external environment to provide and unfulfilled expectations can be painful.  Combine that with our own internal web mesh states and interpretations it's potentially one hell of a recipe for mental disaster and unhappiness as Armyaviation is currently experiencing.  Remember that we can only control our own slice of the pie not the rest of it, protocols and systems will only go so far and like in the case of telling someone to be sorry it only means something if it's genuine.    Since these VP tables are freeware and essentially donations, personally speaking when I make a donation I want nothing in return and I stress the word nothing.  The joy is in the giving itself and when it comes to time and effort we ourselves know if we did a good job or not.  For example Karate Kid II, that scene where Daniel made the plaque display for Mr Miyagi's medals, Mr Miyagi was thankful but questioned Daniel as to why?  Sorry I cant remember the exact script off the top of my head but the gist was  Daniel said to show them off and to prove Mr Miyagi was brave etc (ie seek external validation from the external environment) and Mr Miyagi replied thanks but one knows in their heart if they did a good job or not, they don't need a medal or trophy to tell them.  In this case trophy/medals being credit.  Respect and peace to all, thanks.

[ItchyRobot]

Really all I'm doing is trying to make my collection of tables look like real tables that I might expect to see in real rooms.

Do you play in Desktop view? If so, how about making some YouTube videos showing how you tweak the lighting and such for us newbs that can't figure it out? Your ID4 release was great for me since the original release had a bunch of game breaking lights in desktop mode... your fixed those for me, but I wish I could do it myself... I tried and failed.

There are a bunch of people around here and on YouTube that are great at tweaking other peoples tables, but are not sharing the love/info with us laymen/idiots. Make some YouTube tutorials guys! =)

For example, this dude on YouTube mods his table to look amazing in desktop mode... adds new background, adds lighted/blinking backglass to the right side, enhance DMD to the left... very cool looking. I assume he could release this as a MOD on these sites, but may get ridiculed by the pinball police. I really wish you guys would focus more on teaching the community on how to recreate your tweaks and enhancements =(

[Armyaviation]

Balisaan and Bigus1 are sooo right. I am a horribly unhappy person that does this for my own pride. You guys give back to the community way more than I ever could and I am so mad about it. Keep on producing great tables, you too balisaan.

Funny, all this back talk from people that have never even made a table.....maybe Ill just follow your lead and stop building tables and just be a staunch critic

Edited by Armyaviation, 29 May 2020 - 03:29 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

And this is why we have processes and procedures here at VPForums. If there is an issue with an upload or credits, please report the file to me, and I will deal with it. Mob rules do not apply here.

 

To answer the original question ... "Why would you let this guy mod your tables?"

 

I would let him, hell ENCOURAGE him, because this is a group effort community which seems to have lost its way. We are supposed to encourage modding, as it usually yields new authors.

 

The concept behind VPF is, and always has been, to work TOGETHER to recreate pinball's PAST. SO many people have been involved in making the tables people call 'theirs', you can't even count anymore. No one owns ANY of this.

 

I let this topic go, perhaps too long, as I was curious to see if people could resolve this in a friendly and respectful way, without it degenerating into nothing more than infighting. The experiment appears to be a failure.

 

If this is ANYONE'S fault, it's mine. I approved it, after all. I just take people at their word . Perhaps I assume too much, but with the COVID crisis, I haven't had a lot of time to scour the internet to see who worked on it previously. I've been doing everything solo for the past two months. Of course, if I take too long to approve, that's a problem, too. I just can't win. :/

 

The very last thing I have to say is, I'm sick and tired of people who refuse to give back to this community, after using its resources to create new tables, coming here and causing grief. It's disrespectful to me and everyone who's previously worked on it and shared it here, JP in particular, in most cases, as he's SPECIFICALLY requested, as a matter of terms to MOD, they be uploaded here. I also see a lot of MODs of tables I worked on, or provided resources for, not being shared here, as well. So, truthfully, the other sites are LOADED with unauthorized MODs and tables that shouldn't be released in the first place. Go police the sites you frequent, if you're really this bored. There's plenty to do.

 

JP Salas and I have been discussing this privately, and I'll be posting the new upload guidelines very soon. We're taking the politics out of our hobby. This isn't fun for anyone.

 

Thank you.