357 replies to this topic

[Knorr]

Well, my reflexes are pretty slow!

But yeah -- on my gtx750ti I had everything maxed out graphics wise because your table looks so beautiful. I couldn't for the life of me hit that Red shot! Not a design flaw in your and Clark's recreation, of course, Knorr. It's perfect! But my five year old machine and slow refresh rate Costco TV wouldn't let me nail that jackpot (or the upper ramp in Tommy, for another example) without guess-flipping way early. With GTX-joe code, it's much easier for me. Feels natural.

No problem but I would be happy to have such feedback in the dedicated table thread. Try that orange sign hint and report me back at the rs thread

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[Ben Logan]

Of course, Knorr. Will do. Thank you for the beautiful gift of Road Show. One of the all time great VPX tables.

[gtxjoe]

It's not my fix - I just shared it in this thread.  This approach has been used by table authors for a long time, probably as long as flipper lag has been discussed...  

[toxie]

But i wonder how they handled the more freaky stuff like video modes then? Or end of wizard mode like in TOTAN?

Bonus count, etc i understand (all balls in trough), but what about the other things?

[toxie]

I think i got a reasonable solution now, but curious to hear from you guys if it could fail somewhere/for some machines..

 

The idea is that one has a timer (currently running at 100) that switches one of the flipper switches on each call.

Then the corresponding flipper solenoid callback will NOT flip the actual VP-flipper, but rather just set a variable to some number (for example 10), but do the DOF/Sound stuff as usual.

 

The keyup/down routines will use this variable to see if the VP-flipper can actually be flipped (variable > 0), and then directly flip the VP-flipper (same as the code brought up by gtxjoe).

 

In addition, the mentioned timer will decrease this variable on each call (as long as the variable is > 0), so that it will be disabled after X runs if the flipper circuit/solenoid is disabled by the ROM.

 

 

Now my concern is: Would some machines/ROMs avoid firing the solenoid at some point, as its triggered all the time (to avoid heating up of the coil, etc)??

Cause then this scheme would fail again.

Edited by toxie, 14 October 2016 - 11:07 PM.

[nFozzy]

Yes, Twilight Zone cuts off the solenoid after about 10 minutes of use

 

Also other things that have to be considered:

VIdeo modes

lane change

Autoplungers that launch the ball when you hit both buttons

status report

HSTD name entry

[toxie]

True. Seems it was already too late for my brain yesterday evening.  :/

[Brer Frog]

 

 

Higher frequency display makes a huge difference.  I can play on my 144hz monitor, then compare to my old 60hz monitor and everything is laggy and choppy... not extreme, but when you compare the two you can really tell the difference.  I would not be able to go back to any kind of gaming on a 60hz monitor.  The monitor makes more of a difference than we generally admit.

 

What size and make & model monitor are you using?

 

 

I am using a 27" 144hz computer gaming monitor (you can see my setup here if you like:  http://www.vpforums....0&hl=+desk +cab).  Because I'm using a gaming monitor designed for high speed 3D pc games (think Call of Duty, etc) the performance is good... but that is where it gets tricky for everyone  with a cab that needs a large TV monitor.  There are different things to consider.  I can connect my monitor via DVI or Display Port which support higher refresh rate... many TV's (mostly the cheaper ones unfortunately) only have HDMI connections, which cap off refresh at 60.  Many TV's get around this by having a bit of a 120hz "hack".  When you are shopping for a TV you want to distinguish between 120hz and "true 120hz", and you also want to consider how it will connect to your graphics card (DVI, HDMI... do any TV's have Display Port?  I don't know).   Here's an article I just found while I was looking around on this subject (please, do not try this stuff if you don't know what you are doing)  http://www.blurbuste...120hz-pc-to-tv/

 

 

I realize this is a bit off-topic but have a question on the Acer monitor.

The specs look good however it has a TN panel which from what understand usually does not have great off axis viewing. In your setup you are pretty much looking at the monitor straight on. Have you ever tried looking at it from something like a 45 degree angle to see how well the picture quality holds up?
 

Edited by Brer Frog, 15 October 2016 - 08:42 AM.

[Drybonz]

It's not bad.  If you have the money for an IPS go for that, it will be better but they cost more.

[nFozzy]

Since the idea seems relevant again, I did some more work on my Terminator 2 script which bypasses the flipper solenoids

https://www.dropbox....WIP-5a.vpx?dl=0

 

I left a pair of lights in DT mode so you can get an idea of what the script is doing. Green light means the flippers are disconnected from the script, red means the flippers are behaving normally (rom controlled).

 

There's some flaws - like the status report pops up a lot during normal play. A more complicated script might be able to fix this, I was able to keep it simple because T2 only has a one-way lane change. Hey, at least the status report works.

 

The flippers definitely feel snappier, but it still feels like a dead end to me. The only way I could see it is if the game could know when the flippers / bumpers / whatever are working before it checks the callbacks, through scanning the memory for specific addresses or something. Otherwise scripts like this are a little too ridiculous to be reasonable on a larger scale.

Edited by nFozzy, 15 October 2016 - 10:58 AM.

[Thalamus]

This probably shows how little I know about VP. But, would it be possible to add flippers that send signals to the rom but are hidden from the table ?

[toxie]

@nFozzy: Looking good! Do you think we could encapsulate this into some sane interface so that other tables could use easily it when adding that to the core.vbs? Or are there potentially too many issues on other tables?

I'd love to have more tables using this (even if its optionally)! Its just sooo many ms of lag in the worst case (which happens pretty often, and also the variation in the amount of ms is bad for aiming), plus it might be even more when B2S is involved in addition.

 

@Thalamus: Yes, but what do you want to achieve with this?

Edited by toxie, 15 October 2016 - 09:30 PM.

[nFozzy]

For games with upper flippers, yeah probably. The hard part would be tracking the changelanes, but fortunately the upper flipper switches don't affect changelanes.

 

For everything else, If there was a script that could track the changelanes consistently, then it might be possible to it through core.vbs. I'll try to track the T2 changelane. T2 has the benefit of being a really responsive system unlike a lot of 80s changelanes, and also it's not bi-directional or used in lots of light routines like more modern changelanes. So getting a script that works for everything could be a real challenge.

[Thalamus]

Well, I wasn't just asking to add more flippers. More like changes to the main code so we would have one pair that never sent info to the VPM, and these were used for controlling the ball.

Then other pair would be hidden and pass lane changes, video modes and other interaction, with a slight delay,

 

Don't know if this makes any sense.

[toxie]

@Thalamus: The hard part here is to distinguish what is what.

Nevertheless the idea is also not that bad: Have two flipper sets, one invisible, one visible. This will solve most issues on most tables then, i guess, except for the case when there are balls still on the table but the flippers are deactivated (spitting out still-locked balls after the game and deactivating flippers during gameplay like in TOTAN wizard mode).

 

Opinions on that one?

 

@nFozzy: So the changelanes are the only thing you see problems with? Maybe thats good enough for most users? We could have that maybe as a global/local switch to choose from.

 

 

EDIT: as for the first comment: the last issue could be worked around by using my first suggestion (correcting wrong flips of the (invisible) flippers with the real solenoid result afterwards). so i think this could be really a solution overall that works close to perfect and is not -that- complicated!

Edited by toxie, 16 October 2016 - 12:39 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

The invisible flippers could just be tiny little flippers under the apron. Just need them for ROM functionality.

Perhaps monitor them, and if the ROM controlled flippers can't flip, shut the VP flippers off, then enable them again when a ball hits the shooter lane?

Just throwing ideas out there.

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[toxie]

actually the other way round: the invisible flippers would be the ones doing the ball physics, and the visible ones doing the VPM interaction.. (at least thats how i understood it)

[Noah Fentz]

I think the issue is the delay to the flippers is caused by VPM, so you'd want non-VPM flippers doing all the work. The VPM flippers are just there to communicate what's going on to the ROM processes. I'd hide those altogether and never have them interact with the ball.

The only thing left at that point would be disabling the flippers at the appropriate time, and speeding them up, of course.

The ball collision script could be useful in disabling the flippers, since it tracks balls in play, If I recall correctly.

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[Ben Logan]

Thalamus - Sounds like you've contributed a possible jumping off point toward a solution. Awesome!

[Thalamus]

Since the idea seems relevant again, I did some more work on my Terminator 2 script which bypasses the flipper solenoids

https://www.dropbox....WIP-5a.vpx?dl=0

 

Love this version. When I miss the target - it feels like its my fault. ( Qwerty keyboard and desktop mode @ 60 Hhz )

 

@Ben Logan : Well, it still early stages. I'm just happy and kind of surprised that what I suggested might be doable :-)

 

And, yes - Noah understood me correctly. If they need to poll the "hidden" flippers, well, it should not be to often. Who cares if they don't notice immediately and turn off because of a drained ball.

 

... I see a problem - Monster Bash and Addams Family where the rom tells when to flip :-( Well, its the other way around, not going from a button to rom - but, the other way around.

Edited by Thalamus, 16 October 2016 - 10:45 PM.