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Pinscape expansion board preview


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#81 NobodyYouKnow

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 01:44 PM

Swisslizard - that is an awesome idea. I'll have to give that a try. I had suspected that a 12v solenoid of any flavor would react more slowly and with less "thump" than a 24v equivalent.Once I get my boards and get them built, I'm going to have to give this a try. Of course, it will be the PWM approach.



#82 mk47

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 10:28 AM

attachment.php?attachmentid=164674&d=145

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=164675&d=145

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=164676&d=145



#83 NobodyYouKnow

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Posted 13 January 2016 - 04:48 AM

mk47 - I can't get the attachments to open. Can you confirm it works for you? Thanks!



#84 mk47

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 03:36 PM

I don't know what happens here. It's allowed to reference external images in the editor when entering a comment. But after one or two days the domain is striped from the links.

 

I posted the images in a German forum, see http://www.flipperma...36&postcount=79

 

The pcb design from November 2015 contained some small bugs but the images proove that they're fixable and that the software and the general approach works.

 

The next step will be to apply the fixes to the pcb layout and to create a new revision.



#85 vampirolatino2

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 03:56 PM

awesome, but you need to be a member to look at the pictures :(

 

btw, looking forward for the revision pcb



#86 mk47

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 04:38 PM

I see :-(

 

I just created an image gallery here at vpforums. But the moderator approval is till pending ...



#87 BorgDog

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 05:12 PM

I see :-(

 

I just created an image gallery here at vpforums. But the moderator approval is till pending ...

you could use the VPF Image Host at the top of the page.



#88 mjr

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 11:33 PM

Just wanted to post a little update, since it's been a while.  Apologies for the delay.  I got sidetracked for several weeks hunting down some nasty bugs in the mbed USB library code.  Some changes I've been working on in the controller software started making my USB connection incredibly unreliable.  That took me down a rabbit hole into the bowels of the mbed library's USB hardware interface.  After studying the code for quite a while, I figured out what was going on and was able to fix it.  The bad news is that this little adventure set me back by several weeks on the hardware project.   The good news is that I think I was completely successful squashing the bugs;  the USB connection should be rock-solid from now on.  

 

(It turns out that the library bugs I found have been there all along.  What's more, they affect *everyone* using mbed for KL25Z USB projects.  It's kind of amazing that no one ever noticed until now.  But the nature of the bugs was that they'd only strike randomly, and fairly infrequently in most apps, so I guess everyone has just been blaming the Windows drivers.  That's always a plausible excuse since we're all accustomed to a certain level of flakiness from Windows in general.  But in this case Windows was doing everything right.  The bugs were very clear and fixable on the device side.  Windows was uncharacteristically blameless. :))

 

Anyway, regarding the hardware:  I've now built my prototypes of all three boards, and I've tested almost every function.  There is one serious bug in the board layout that affects the TLC5940 PWM chips (same bug on the main interface board and the MOSFET power board), but after working around that, those are working nicely.  I've already fixed up my EAGLE layout to correct those, but haven't ordered new boards yet pending further testing to make sure there are no other such changes required.  The chime board uses no TLC5940 chips and seems to be fully working.  All of the other functions I've tested on the interface board are working - button inputs, power state sensing and TV-on relay, knocker time limiter, and of course the outputs.  

 

I still have to test the plunger interface functions, and I want to do some more testing of the MOSFET board with high-current devices to make sure everything looks stable.  I especially need to do some torture testing with inductive loads to make sure that all of the data signals remain clean in the presence of electrical noise.  I had some issues with that when I was building early ad hoc versions of similar circuitry for my cab, so I want to make sure I've dealt properly with those issues this time through.


My messy test setup. 

 

threeboardsbeingtestedsmall.jpg


Edited by mjr, 16 January 2016 - 11:52 PM.


#89 GeCh

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 08:41 PM

In french forums some members encountered problems with USB and the ledwiz emulation.. solved by buying a reel ledwiz...

What is the bug turnaround? 

Is the eagle file from the first post updated?



#90 mjr

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 04:33 AM

In french forums some members encountered problems with USB and the ledwiz emulation.. solved by buying a reel ledwiz...

 

Sorry, haven't heard anything about that, so I have no idea what that's about, but it sure doesn't sound related to anything I've encountered.  If you have any details feel free to fill me in.



#91 GeCh

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 12:07 PM

It seems that everything seems good until USB connection doesn't seems to respond. A reset of the kl25z solves that.

Some other people have a red led on cabinet start, the reset solves the problem. It seems that a hub USB is the solution. 

Usb3 doesn't seems to work well.

The use of Chinese solenoid (plugged via a relai board) seems to interfer with the kl25z and makes it loose connection

I never have those issues on my workstation but had a few on the new cab I build.. the ledwiz seems fine but looses connection while playing.

I also struggled with the launch ball.. I had too much light which  make the captor not stable. Solved by reducing the high source.



#92 mjr

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 07:13 PM

It seems that everything seems good until USB connection doesn't seems to respond. A reset of the kl25z solves that.

 

That could indeed be caused by the same bugs I just fixed.  Random disconnects were the main symptom.  I saw this *extremely* rarely, though - mean time between failures was probably something like 20 hours of continuous operation, although that's based on a relatively small sample size.  If you were seeing these frequently enough to be troublesome, my best guess it that you ran into something else entirely.

 

 

Usb3 doesn't seems to work well.

 

The original mbed USB library didn't work at all with USB 3.  I fixed it a long time ago so that it worked reliably with the USB 3 chip set on my PC, and many other people have reported successful use with USB 3.  I even use it exclusively with USB 3 ports on my own cab.  However, the problem I fixed was very specific - a particular protocol timing/sequencing quirk that happened on my hardware and tripped up the mbed USB code.  I can easily imagine that there exist other host USB chip sets with different quirks that cause different failure modes that I haven't encountered on my own setup.  But I wouldn't just assume that anything you're running into is a USB 3 problem per se.  The problem I ran into was incorrectly ascribed to USB 3 for a long time by a lot of people, but it wasn't truly a USB 3 problem.  It was actually an Intel Haswell chip set problem, and that chip set happened to implement USB 3, so people wrongly assumed it was USB 3 that was responsible.  It might be the same sort of thing in your case with a different quirky chip set.

 

Unfortunately, if it is indeed a problem with your specific motherboard, it's impossible for me to debug it without having your specific type of motherboard on hand to test with.  I could give you advice about debugging it on your end if you're up for the job, but of course that's a significant investment of your time to learn the low-level details of USB and the mbed library code.  In broad outline, what you have to do is go into the Windows Message Analyzer and watch the USB traffic on the port to find out what's failing, then track it to the point of failure and find out what the mbed code is doing wrong at the critical point with the offending message packet.

 

 

The use of Chinese solenoid (plugged via a relai board) seems to interfer with the kl25z and makes it loose connection

 

That's almost certainly due to electrical noise from the solenoid, or possibly even the relay board.  Relays are themselves inductors and can cause significant electrical noise.  *Any* problem you're seeing that you can trace to an external device like that means that you have too much electrical noise coming from the device and propagating into the logic circuitry (in your KL25Z, LedWiz, or PC motherboard).

 

To eliminate those sorts of problems when attaching high-current devices like solenoids, there are two things you *must* do.

 

The first is that you absolutely need a flyback diode on anything inductive (solenoids, motors, contactors, and relays).  Use a 1N4007 diode or something similar.  Attach it close to the device's power terminals.

 

The second is to make sure your booster circuitry is thoroughly decoupled from any logic circuitry with capacitors.  The standard recommendation is a combination of a small ceramic capacitor (100nF is the usual recommendation) plus a large electrolytic (100uF to 1000uF), in parallel between power and ground near the logic circuit power supply.  Your PC motherboard probably already has a ton of decoupling capacitors, so it's probably pretty immune.  The KL25Z gets its power from USB, so it's usually pretty well isolated on its own, but as soon as you start connecting booster circuits to GPIO ports, the USB side of the isolation is lost because you're connecting another path to power through the GPIO ports.  

 

The problem is probably the solenoid rather than the relay board, but there's an easy way to find out.  Just disconnect the solenoid and keep the relay board in place.  If the problem persists, it's the relay board.  (It could be the solenoid *too* in that case, but you at least have to fix the relay board.)  If the problem disappears with the solenoid unplugged, it must just be the solenoid.  Whichever device is causing the problem will need additional protection to prevent it from injecting electrical noise into the rest of the circuitry - diodes and/or capacitors as above.

 

Another outside possibility is that you just need a bigger power supply.  If your power supply is overtaxed by the inrush current surge when the solenoid and/or relays turn on, you could be getting voltage dips right at the power supply level.  That can cause problems for the logic circuitry by changing the voltage levels for "on" and "off" in the digital circuitry.  Most PC power supplies are so powerful and have such big capacitors built in that this doesn't seem like a likely problem, but if you're using a small PSU it might be something to look at.


Edited by mjr, 18 January 2016 - 07:26 PM.


#93 NobodyYouKnow

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 01:16 AM

Hey MJR.

I have a couple of questions arising from my review of the schematic for the KL25Z board. First, can you confirm the orientation of the symbols for C1, C6 and C10? It looks like they are backwards. No big issue for C1 and C6 since they are non-polar, but lethal for the electrolytic cap at C10. Second - looking at the "Operating Mode Truth Table" for the TLC5940s operating in "Grayscale PWM Mode", I think Pin 27 (VPRG) needs to be held low vice at Vcc. The current board configuration forces "Dot Correction Data Input Mode" mode, which I believe is not the intended mode of operation. Am I on track, or am I missing something? The cap polarity issue can be handled without a new PCB. The TLC5940 issue is another matter. (This may be related to the bug you mentioned above).

I am looking forward to your latest Eagle layout files!

Thanks!

Pat

 

(edit) mk47's photos are coming through. It looks like he is describing the TLC5940 mode issue in his first photo. I am somewhat gratified that my old logic skillz are still there. :otvclap:


Edited by NobodyYouKnow, 19 January 2016 - 01:20 AM.


#94 mjr

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 05:28 AM

I have a couple of questions arising from my review of the schematic for the KL25Z board. First, can you confirm the orientation of the symbols for C1, C6 and C10? It looks like they are backwards. No big issue for C1 and C6 since they are non-polar, but lethal for the electrolytic cap at C10. Second - looking at the "Operating Mode Truth Table" for the TLC5940s operating in "Grayscale PWM Mode", I think Pin 27 (VPRG) needs to be held low vice at Vcc. The current board configuration forces "Dot Correction Data Input Mode" mode, which I believe is not the intended mode of operation. Am I on track, or am I missing something? The cap polarity issue can be handled without a new PCB. The TLC5940 issue is another matter. (This may be related to the bug you mentioned above).

 

You're right about all of those.  The VPROG connection is the main bug I mention earlier; DCPROG likewise needs to be connected to ground rather than Vcc, since the current setup doesn't have provisions for programming the dot correction registers and thus must use the defaults in the EEPROM instead.  I'm looking at running the DCPROG and VPROG inputs to GPIO outputs on the KL25Z to allow for optional DC programming in the software, but I really doubt it'll be necessary for this application, so it might be better to keep it simple and just wire them both directly to ground.  In any case, it's wrong the way it is with both wired to Vcc.

 

And yes, those caps are backwards.  As you said, at least those are easy to work around when assembling the board - you just need to know to install C10 backwards from the polarization shown on the silkscreen.  But I'll certainly fix the labeling for the final version (already fixed my working copy, actually).

 

Thanks for the careful look at the board - it's very helpful to have extra eyes on this.  If you run into anything else, please let me know.  I'm pretty confident at this point that those are the only serious bugs, since everything seems to be working in my assembled boards after working around those, but there could always be something subtle I haven't exercised yet.


Edited by mjr, 19 January 2016 - 05:30 AM.


#95 NobodyYouKnow

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 05:44 PM

I do have a request on the PCB layout, if this is possible. If you move JP2 and JP3 .25mm toward K1, that will allow room for shrouded headers on both JP1 and JP2. I suggest this direction since JP1 is already against the exclusion zone on the left. Connection to JP3 is already tough due to clearance with K1 and the KL25Z. I'll probably use single wire connectors there. I did a paper mockup with a scale schematic and found that the KL25Z board sits right on the edge of the interior of the header shroud, and just clears the wire header. I understand using shrouded headers is kind of a "happy-to-glad" request. It is just that the clearance works everywhere but there.

 

I noticed JP5-2 is unconnected to anything, where 4, 6, 8, 10 are tied to ground. The same applies to its cross-cable mate JP1-2 on the Chime board (and by extension JP2-2 on the Chime board, for cascaded boards). This means there is no shielding at all on the ribbon cable between between Serial Data (pin 1) and Serial Clock (pin 3). I think the ribbon cable can be short enough that it will not significantly induce spurious external signals. Note JP6 and JP2 / JP3 on the MOSFET board do not have that consideration. If you need an open pin for "future enhancements", I would choose pin 10 since it does not lie between any two signals on the cables.

 

Just my $.25 worth.

 

Thanks!



#96 mjr

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 06:04 PM

I do have a request on the PCB layout, if this is possible. If you move JP2 and JP3 .25mm toward K1, that will allow room for shrouded headers on both JP1 and JP2. 

 

Markus (mk47) pointed out the same thing when he built his prototypes, so it turns out I've already done that in my working copy. :)  Markus was able to get the shrouded headers to fit with a little creative plastic whittling, but there's room on the board to move them a little to make the standard shrouded parts fit cleanly.  I did that on all three boards.

 

 

I noticed JP5-2 is unconnected to anything, where 4, 6, 8, 10 are tied to ground. The same applies to its cross-cable mate JP1-2 on the Chime board (and by extension JP2-2 on the Chime board, for cascaded boards). This means there is no shielding at all on the ribbon cable between between Serial Data (pin 1) and Serial Clock (pin 3). I think the ribbon cable can be short enough that it will not significantly induce spurious external signals. Note JP6 and JP2 / JP3 on the MOSFET board do not have that consideration. If you need an open pin for "future enhancements", I would choose pin 10 since it does not lie between any two signals on the cables.

 

The open pins were actually intentional - they're there to make it harmless to plug in the cable backwards.  If you rotate it 180 degrees, the empty pins trade places with power pins.  That way the power line won't get cross-plugged into anything that it might damage even if you get the cable backwards.  Of course, that'll be impossible if you use the shrouded headers, since they're keyed, but I wasn't counting on that.

 

The 74HC595 chips seemed insensitive to interference in my breadboard testing.  The TLC5940's are a huge pain in that regard - it seems like all of their data inputs are on a hair trigger - but I never saw any flakiness in the 595's.  And it seems to be happy on the PCB implementation as well so far.  It would be pretty easy to do a little solder bridge between pins 2 and 4 to ground line 2 if anyone does have trouble with noise.


Edited by mjr, 19 January 2016 - 06:05 PM.


#97 mjr

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 12:26 AM

I've posted the latest versions of the EAGLE files.  Usual place:

 

http://mjrnet.org/pi...sion-board.html

 

I'm getting pretty satisfied that everything's working.  I spent a few days chasing down an electrical noise problem, but that turned out to be a problem in the test setup rather than the boards.  So I think these designs are approaching the point where I can fabricate a batch for distribution.

 

Take a look and let me know if you spot any errors or have any suggestions for improvements.

 

I've created a spreadsheet to track those interested in a group order, so if you're interested, you can PM me or post here.  Let me know which boards you're interested in and how many.  Based on the last batch, they should run about $2.75 per board, plus postage.  At first glance it looks like the worst case is the Priority Mail small flat-rate box at $6.80, but I think they're small and light enough that I can put them in a padded envelope and send them first class for about $4.50 for up to 5 or 6 boards.

 

I'll be shipping to the US only.  I think Markus (mk47) will be setting up something similar in Europe.  That'll also have the advantage that he's going to do slightly customized versions with the silkscreen marked for a couple of substituted parts that are easier to find in Europe.



#98 roar

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 12:54 AM

I've posted the latest versions of the EAGLE files.  Usual place:

 

http://mjrnet.org/pi...sion-board.html

 

I'm getting pretty satisfied that everything's working.  I spent a few days chasing down an electrical noise problem, but that turned out to be a problem in the test setup rather than the boards.  So I think these designs are approaching the point where I can fabricate a batch for distribution.

 

Take a look and let me know if you spot any errors or have any suggestions for improvements.

 

I've created a spreadsheet to track those interested in a group order, so if you're interested, you can PM me or post here.  Let me know which boards you're interested in and how many.  Based on the last batch, they should run about $2.75 per board, plus postage.  At first glance it looks like the worst case is the Priority Mail small flat-rate box at $6.80, but I think they're small and light enough that I can put them in a padded envelope and send them first class for about $4.50 for up to 5 or 6 boards.

 

I'll be shipping to the US only.  I think Markus (mk47) will be setting up something similar in Europe.  That'll also have the advantage that he's going to do slightly customized versions with the silkscreen marked for a couple of substituted parts that are easier to find in Europe.

 

I will order a batch for folks in Canada if anyone else is interested, I believe mjr had mentioned that some of the services have minimum orders so I could be looking at 10 of each board, if that is the case I'll have 9 of each board to sell.



#99 vampirolatino2

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 02:19 AM

one of each board for me. and yes it can be shipped in those bubbled envelopes, china does it all the time and it always arrive complete... from that far lol.

 

thank mjr!!


or thinking better ... I have a lot's of spare parts, that I can manage to do a few boards complete with parts for sale.... if anyone is interested!



#100 boiydiego

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 10:31 AM

what does it cost the 3 boards ??


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