95 replies to this topic

[faralos]

actually I prefer honesty rather than just a 'that's great  keep at it' type of response

but to me the most insulting thing anyone can do is posting the first post on a just released table

 with a saying like this,"it's a great pin, BUT could you do this and that to it for me? so I can play it on MY system?

NO! Flat out no   hell no even! I make these pins for me first then I think of the rest of the community!

Sorry if that offends some of you here but if I spend weeks even months on a pin then release it

 then to be told, "Hey the graphics suck or I want it to be FS not 4:3 so do it NOW

you know what goes through my mind? It ain't pretty let me tell you that!

But to be told (in a nice way) that maybe the pin ain't playing good or the ball flow could stand improvement

that is something different (it's called Constructive Criticism) but not to be told to make it this way or that

 I'll make it however the heck I feel and if you don't like it than don't download or play it

but try not to insult us table builders just for the fact the pin ain't up to YOUR standards

 actually if you hate them so much try building or modding one of them

 then maybe you will get a feel for what we go through on a daily basis when we are working on them

Edited by faralos, 14 December 2012 - 07:41 PM.

[hmueck]

One of the first things one needs to learn about the VP community, concerning authors, is most only want "atta boy" comments, they don't really want suggestions or critiquing, no matter how many times they say they want them. Trust me, just say "looks great" if you want to comment on their work.

Finding bugs is fine. Suggestions - sure. Nitpicking - no thank you. I personally don't like the "wow this look so great" or other exaggerated comments like that. They always seem dishonest to me.
A simple "thanks" is most welcome.

Why did you point out this "behaviour of authors from your point of view"? Do you want to say they have a god complex? Do you want to say they are whining little children?

 

[Bob5453]

 
Why did you point out this "behaviour of authors from your point of view"? Do you want to say they have a god complex? Do you want to say they are whining little children?
  

I've been here since 2001, so it's just an observation.

[EalaDubhSidhe]

If they're anything like me, they don't want 'praise' so much as 'active personal interest'. Yes, 'thank you' and 'looks great' are nice, but they don't convey much about the work you've actually put in beyond a cursory level; it's far more satisfying to get a comment back that suggests the player is really paying attention to all the techniques and creativity you're actually employing.

[kruge99]

If they're anything like me, they don't want 'praise' so much as 'active personal interest'. Yes, 'thank you' and 'looks great' are nice, but they don't convey much about the work you've actually put in beyond a cursory level; it's far more satisfying to get a comment back that suggests the player is really paying attention to all the techniques and creativity you're actually employing.

 

My earlier comments were strictly directed at the down-loaders, implying they could pick up the slack. Using Faralos' numbers 50,000 to 100 means there's an awful lot of folks out there that *could* potentially, in some way, contribute something, anything, but choose not to, for whatever reason. 

 

I'm not looking for any pats on the back, I'm just an amateur Virtual Pinball re-creator trying to inspire even the most insignificant down-loader out there to give ANYTHING back to this community that doesn't really exist, besides what people might think, otherwise.

 

 

Best Regards,

Todd.

[Roo]

Regarding the FS vs desktop discussion -- something people should keep in mind is that you don't actually need a full cabinet to enjoy FS tables.

 

Now, I did just order a VirtuaPin, but I have been messing around with VP for the last month or so on a normal widescreen PC monitor laid down on a desk (with some towels propping up the far end).  Just with that alone it's the best virtual pinball experience I've ever had because you can see so well!  All of the issues pinball games usually have trying to represent pinball on a regular TV or monitor go away and it just feels real.  No camera angles that are really low and make you feel like a little kid; no camera panning or zooming; no super zoomed-out views that make it hard to see detail.  It actually makes it hard to go back to other pinball titles I enjoy such as Pinball FX2 on Xbox 360.  And that's with a cheap TFT monitor that doesn't have great viewing angles -- it's still awesome.

 

Not everyone has the ability/resources to build/buy a full cab, I get that.  I feel lucky that I'm able to get one.  But I think more people that just play on the desktop should try FS tables, even without a cab.  Even with a keyboard or standard gaming controller it'd be fine.  Add something like that Pinball Wizard controller and you'd have a pretty decent setup.

 

I have seen a few people discuss setups like this; here's one of them.  I also liked this video where the guy used a laptop as the backglass.

 

I'm not trying to say regular desktop is wrong/bad.  I'm just trying to share my enthusiasm for FS and encourage more people to try it.

 

Oh, and the T2 Chrome Edition does look awesome!  But there are many others I've enjoyed already as well.  Thanks to all the authors.

 

Regarding the OP, some of the night mods (Twilight Zone, Simpsons Pinball Party, Tales of the Arabian Nights) are pretty cool because they really show off the lighting, so you might want to check those out.

[hmueck]

Regarding the OP, some of the night mods (Twilight Zone, Simpsons Pinball Party, Tales of the Arabian Nights) are pretty cool because they really show off the lighting, so you might want to check those out.

 

Add The Flintstones and Sorcerer to that list. Plus many unclewilly tables.

[Aurich]

Not everyone has the ability/resources to build/buy a full cab, I get that.  I feel lucky that I'm able to get one.  But I think more people that just play on the desktop should try FS tables, even without a cab.  Even with a keyboard or standard gaming controller it'd be fine.  Add something like that Pinball Wizard controller and you'd have a pretty decent setup.

 

Super easy to build your own little controller too. This is just my test setup in a cardboard box for my cabinet, but with just slightly more effort it could have been made in a real box, and makes a huge difference over playing with a keyboard as far as experience goes:

 

 

[rob046]

Regarding the FS vs desktop discussion -- something people should keep in mind is that you don't actually need a full cabinet to enjoy FS tables.

 

Now, I did just order a VirtuaPin, but I have been messing around with VP for the last month or so on a normal widescreen PC monitor laid down on a desk (with some towels propping up the far end).  Just with that alone it's the best virtual pinball experience I've ever had because you can see so well!  All of the issues pinball games usually have trying to represent pinball on a regular TV or monitor go away and it just feels real.  No camera angles that are really low and make you feel like a little kid; no camera panning or zooming; no super zoomed-out views that make it hard to see detail.  It actually makes it hard to go back to other pinball titles I enjoy such as Pinball FX2 on Xbox 360.  And that's with a cheap TFT monitor that doesn't have great viewing angles -- it's still awesome.

 

Not everyone has the ability/resources to build/buy a full cab, I get that.  I feel lucky that I'm able to get one.  But I think more people that just play on the desktop should try FS tables, even without a cab.  Even with a keyboard or standard gaming controller it'd be fine.  Add something like that Pinball Wizard controller and you'd have a pretty decent setup.

 

I have seen a few people discuss setups like this; here's one of them.  I also liked this video where the guy used a laptop as the backglass.

 

I'm not trying to say regular desktop is wrong/bad.  I'm just trying to share my enthusiasm for FS and encourage more people to try it.

 

Oh, and the T2 Chrome Edition does look awesome!  But there are many others I've enjoyed already as well.  Thanks to all the authors.

 

Regarding the OP, some of the night mods (Twilight Zone, Simpsons Pinball Party, Tales of the Arabian Nights) are pretty cool because they really show off the lighting, so you might want to check those out.

 

I think pretty much everybody at least tries FS, since it only requires flipping a monitor on its side, but I think most desktop people feel that FS tables are designed for cabinet views, & the pre-distortion doesn't really work correctly if on a small desktop monitor.  For me, the reason you seem to like it is the reason why I don't like it.  I like a little angle on the tables that gives the feel of depth & looks more like a real machine would look (unless you are 8 ft tall).  I think everybody's brain can be different with this stuff.  FS just looks flat to me, but other people claim it looks fine to them, or it doesn't bother them because they value different things than I do while playing.  Point is, I don't think anybody is missing out on anything out of unwillingness to try it.  People just prefer 1 way or another, pretty much that simple.  But if/when the software/technology makes some more advancements, I will revisit & try again.  Maybe it will get to a point where I'll be able to buy into it.

Edited by rob046, 15 December 2012 - 08:51 PM.

[Roo]

I think everybody's brain can be different with this stuff.  FS just looks flat to me, but other people claim it looks fine to them, or it doesn't bother them because they value different things than I do while playing.  Point is, I don't think anybody is missing out on anything out of unwillingness to try it.  People just prefer 1 way or another, pretty much that simple.  But if/when the software/technology makes some more advancements, I will revisit & try again.  Maybe it will get to a point where I'll be able to buy into it.

 

 

I think that's fair, Rob.  We are dealing with trying to represent 3D reality on a 2D screen, after all -- there's bound to be a bit of a fudge factor that different people experience differently.  Probably similar to how some people experience motion sickness from certain first-person shooter type games, depending on the field of view settings and what not.

Personally, I love FS and actually think it improves my play a little.  I feel like I can line up some shots so much better -- especially shots off secondary flippers on the sides further up the table.  But by all means, use what you like best.  It's nice that both ways are well supported overall.  Thanks again to all the authors, especially the ones that go out of their way to support versions or options they don't use themselves.

 

Aurich, I like your cardboard box setup -- very creative.

[waspstar]

rob046, I respect your view and I get what you are saying about each one to their own liking but you come across as a desktop defender in all your posts in this thread,(nothing wrong with that) You like what you like but I fully agree with Roo. Your assumption that all who are playing desktop instead of FS do it because they prefer it is dead wrong. I am proof. For a long time I only played desktop because I was sure FS was for cabinet builders only, but after I understood it, (and that only happened after reading lots of posts on the subject, not all casual players that you defend and say are crucial to the community bother to do that) I will never go back to desktop unless some insane good table that I can not get in FS comes along. A lot of people probably feel as you, I am only saying that there is probably a lot out there that has yet to try FS or worse, someone  like me who do not even know they can rotate their monitor. (Boy did I feel stupid when I found out about that button on the back of the monitor). Sorry if I come across as a rude newbie, that is not my intention (being rude that is)  

[rob046]

rob046, I respect your view and I get what you are saying about each one to their own liking but you come across as a desktop defender in all your posts in this thread,(nothing wrong with that) You like what you like but I fully agree with Roo. Your assumption that all who are playing desktop instead of FS do it because they prefer it is dead wrong. I am proof. For a long time I only played desktop because I was sure FS was for cabinet builders only, but after I understood it, (and that only happened after reading lots of posts on the subject, not all casual players that you defend and say are crucial to the community bother to do that) I will never go back to desktop unless some insane good table that I can not get in FS comes along. A lot of people probably feel as you, I am only saying that there is probably a lot out there that has yet to try FS or worse, someone  like me who do not even know they can rotate their monitor. (Boy did I feel stupid when I found out about that button on the back of the monitor). Sorry if I come across as a rude newbie, that is not my intention (being rude that is)  

 

I think somebody can read all the posts they want, that shouldn't sway whether or not FS works with they eyes & brain or not.  So I'm not sure in what way reading posts helped you like FS tables.

You probably are 1 of the people I mentioned above, who value something different than I while playing.  & I know full well that I'm not the only one who sees a flat 2D distorted mess in FS mode.  But let me again say that I also play real pinball every day, so I do prefer the look of angled tables.  Maybe if I had never played real pinball before, then FS might be fine for me.  But I sadly can't get FS to feel anything like a real machine does, visually, not even in a full size cab (although its a little better that way). 

 

I've been told more than a dozen times over the years that if I just give FS a try I would love it, but they don't know that I've already spent more than enough time trying to convince myself that I like it.  It just doesn't happen for me.  Also, keep in mind that when I'm playing VP, I actually like having the experience of sitting down at my desk.  Again I have real pinball machines to give me that fix of standing up at a cab, so I don't really care about that.

 

It also helps that I put a lot of money into nice desktop setups, & so the experience is pretty damn good.  I have professional grade IPS panels which give a better display than HDTV's.  I get a performance boost too without additional screens, which is important to me as I love playing the most demanding tables maxed out & with full alpha slider.  I'm always playing at resolutions higher than anybody on a cab is playing, & I can go even higher yet if I want.  This becomes more & more useful as VP is able to support larger textures.  I put a ton of value in table resolution.  Lately I like to mention the ipad3, say Zen Pinball.  On ipad3 with my retina display, the resolution is even higher than it is in 1080p on my large HDTV.  I can actually read text at the back of tables far easier on my little ipad3 than at 1080p HDTV.

 

Same thing in VP.  While tables might generally appear smaller on desktop, things are still clearer.  Even when angled, thanks in part to maxing out anisotropic filtering.  I also think tables can just simply look better in desktop.

But yeah there are just some things that drive me nutty in FS, especially on a monitor.  I mean, the ball appears the same size at the top of a table as it does at the bottom!  That is nothing like how pinball appears in real life.  & for whoever is able to tolerate this & it doesn't bug them, then more power to you.

This is just what I see, my experience, to explain why I'm not a FS user.  Maybe that changes in the future, its just not quite there yet for my liking.

 

I will continue to defend desktop.  Even if I only played FS I would defend desktop.  I've stated earlier in the thread that it is vital to the hobby.  Anybody who wants FS VP to keep getting better, you need to root for desktop tables to keep coming out at the same pace & quality, you want both sides of the fence to be healthy.  Not only do some people simply prefer desktop, but there are some who might want FS but simply don't have the resources for a cabinet, & might not like rotating their monitor.  & many monitors don't even rotate at all.  A pin cab is an enormous commitment, financially & otherwise.  & just because somebody isn't playing FS certainly does not mean that they aren't as into the hobby as anyone else.  I've heard a few times lately people suggesting that, which is pretty ignorant.  As if FS users are somehow owed a little more than anybody else, because of the $$ they spent.  This hobby doesn't, shouldn't, & never has worked that way, & it would be bad news if it did.

 

& so I like the idea of equal quality tables being available to both sides of the fence.  & for a while there was a lot of people working hard to get everything converted to FS, & then continue to do that.  Now that things have pretty well caught up, it just seems that many FS releases aren't paying back the favor.  I understand in some cases, but just minutes ago I found a popular table for some reason not released for desktop.  I literally converted it in under a minute.  That... that gnaws at me a bit, I'm not gonna lie.  Maybe some FS builders just don't know how quick & easy it is to convert certain tables?  Maybe the don't even try to find out?  Even just a quick & dirty conversion its way better than nothing.

I do think FS & desktop can both keep chugging along very well, but only as long as most releases are making it to both sides.

 

Btw, you aren't being rude with your post.  I actually want people to not be afraid of posting stuff like that.  Even if it is something I personally don't like or might not respond well to, so what.  Nobody is getting hurt & all this is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.  I don't like when people take it too seriously, or assume that I'm taking it too seriously (all I can do is say that I'm not & hope people believe me:)).  I've had pretty big disagreements with people, then a week later all is forgotten & no grudges are held, as long as nobody goes way out of bounds or starts attacking on a personal level.  Sometimes the only way to get a gauge on what people are thinking on certain topics are to have a slightly heated thread.  & of course nobody has to participate if they don't like that sort of thing.  I usually don't like this sort of thing, but I have my 1 or 2 topics that I will go to bat for.  This being 1 of them.  Anyhow, thanks for the post & welcome to VPF!

[Tom1965]

This topic sure is a can of worms. The way I see it is that no matter which way you play, these tables are being preserved somehow, which is a good thing. I take offence to being labelled a "leacher" if I download more than I can give back to the community. I do not have the skills or the ability to make a table as of yet, one day I hope to. If I tell an author I enjoy their table or it plays well it is meant with honesty( I just couldn't get that pyramid right in Stargate). No smoke being blown here. I respect all of the authors for what they do , I know how valuable TIME is these days and the lack of it.

 

Tom

[FDSystems]

@ rob, Wapstar, Roo, Aurich.................

Once I tried to rotate my laptop to play T3;

Loved the table, I did not like the rotated laptop.

I' pretty sure that a huge majority of VP users, only play on PC &/or laptop & do not bother to post here, &/or even to read the forums

[waspstar]

Good post rob046. It was very interesting to read your reasons for choosing desktop. I understand the depth thing can be a problem but to me the gains outweighs the cons in FS. I have never played VP in less than max resolution so I don't know the effect of using only 1080. I also own a real White Water and nothing can compare to that of course ;-) Maybe the depth problem will be more of a issue when I get a virtual cabinet lined up next to it. I play with my 24" desktop monitor rotated to FS now(I have ordered the new virtuapin mini) but if I was playing on a smaller screen or a laptop, (like many probably do) desktop would be an option to consider. I agree totally that the ideal thing would be to have all tables in both desktop and FS, and make everyone happy, but a few (and there will never be more than a few because of the time it takes to make) tables like T2 Chrome who can not be converted to desktop is not hurting the community that much. More like an icing on the cake. It could be a bigger problem with other tables that you mention that can be converted in a flash.(I have no idea if it is many of them though) I find this kind of discussions healthy in a topic like this instead of complaints given to a designer right after they have released something.  We are all just enjoying the ride of the silver ball and want to be a part of the whole ride. So to any designers that read my humble ramblings. It is not aimed at anyone of you. And Tom1965 you are a gold member so you have payed to download. I would guess that this site could not be maintained if no money was coming in so you are deff doing your part in keeping the flame alive (that's how I justify my lack of computer skills anyway)  

 

And sorry to the orginal poster who only asked a simple question and got this train wreck instead

FDsystems, you could very well be right. I was just saying that it could also be the other way round for some people. This is not getting us anywhere is it? :-D 

[faralos]

I would not go so far as to call any downloader a leecher

what he means is the ones who just download all the time for years

then the only time we ever see a post from them is when they have a beef to bitch about

why not post every now and then just for the heck of it? ya' know keep your foot in and all that

      Now back to FS tables I PREFER 4:3 over the FS look mainly due to FS's flatness

the FS pins look to me like a cartoon drawn onto a monitor... no depth at all

 when I was picking up my Flash pin from Slydog 43 he owns a virtuapin cab

and showed me a few of the pins that sit in it and I still like the 4:3 look over any FS table

 but that is just MY opinion

different strokes for different folks and all that

 just like some people here swear by the FP pins and some love ONLY vp ones

ya' can't please everyone all the time so why bother? make what you feel like making

 others who like your pins will either rotate them so they fit their own systems

or (hopefully) tell us how WE can change them so they can enjoy them too