114 replies to this topic

[Greywolf]

FP comments:
1. ROM support can go and suck eggs. All I've ever seen it do is attract the "gimme" crowd. That was one thing I was glad was not implemented.
2. The polygon count seems to me to have been a reasonable limit to insure that it could run on a low-end (but capable) graphics card. Of course, it would be good if the program could determine the capability of the card at run time and automatically downgrade the poly count of imported models on the fly.
3. Lighting was, technically, not "taken away". It was never meant to have been there from what I could tell. That said, it would be nice if that control were there in a panel, and officially sanctioned.
4. Better Physics would have been nice.
5. The expiry date thing makes sense if you have an active project. If you know you're not going to have an active project, then you take it out.
6. There should be two or three ball-models: 33.2mm, 27.5mm, and 19.1mm. Plus a working cue ball. All colourable/texturable.


VP comments (Noah's probably heard all of these, but):
1. Lighting effects in VP are a major PITA -- for a Gottlieb table that tilts, for things like lane inserts, you have to use drop-walls.
2. Getting a Backglass to look really good -- especially an EM backglass, including the random flashing lights behind, e.g., the game title -- is a major PITA. You have to use reels, and personally, I hate having to use reels for images as it taints the physical view portability of the table.
3. Resource libraries. Whether I individually import sounds and images into a table or I start with a meta-table with everything already imported and prune out what isn't used [I REALLY like the "Delete Unused" feature in FP, by the way -- VP could take a lesson from that as well], if I ever have to UPDATE anything, I have to go into ALL 35 (currently, if they were ported to VP) tables and update them individually. The ability to have resource libraries into which to link at runtime, yeah, slows the table load down a bit, but it sure makes maintenance a lot easier. Also means that I don't have to redistribute tables if the generic images change -- just the libraries. It also shrinks down the actual size of the tables a bit -- it's the difference between a 14MB table (partial import, partial link) and a 35MB table (everything imported).
4. I do like being able to use ogg as a sound format.
5. Music Channels (FP) are cool -- I can put in the flipper hum fairly easily.

So there's still a lot of pro and con, here.

[destruk]

lol...if you're seen the gopinball forums, the gimme croud is already there so there isn't anyone left to attract. Avatar anyone? With or without roms, it's what everyone wants to play and they will go wherever they can to get what they want - which fits with the definition. So call the kettle black.

[Rawd]

From your comments Greywolf, can I assume that you are contemplating a return to VP authoring?

[Liteuser]

I'll check out the new version when I get a chance. Thanks for the info.

[Itchigo]

Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

Holding a huge flipper in the air: "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!!!!"

Again sorry.

I don't really have anything against fp, in fact I think it's a shame that we'll likely lose some great authors of fp to vp. There are some unbelievable looking tables in fp. Ashame to think that this wont continue with the same effort with the restrictions.

[SILVERBALL]

Sure it can continue .. just use the 1.9 version with calendar date cahneg if you want the lighting effect employed.No offense, but FP and VP tables are both nice with Pros/Cons. I love the visuals of FP but the rom support in VP. I cannot stand the graphical look (plastics and rails) that VP offers. To each their own. Their is a big upturn in FP table creation regardless if it is 1.9 or 1.9.1 version ... and that is a good thing for all fans of Pinball ;-)

[destruk]

I'm very happy we don't have rom beggars here. Otherwise this wouldn't be such the great place it is.

[anthias]

its interesting to see people complain about the polygon count for toys. Because in my evaluation of the various engines for my MMO project, every single one of them, including the ones you pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for licences to use, has a polygon count limit. why? because your hardware is physically limited. if you only want one pc in the entire world to be able to run your games, then you can arrange for that limited to disappear. but that kind of defeats the purpose.

While FP is not such a dynamic moving 3d environment, it IS a 3d environment. It's not as prone to poly count performance slugs as an immersive 3d world, but still susceptable. A limit to the number of polies in a model is essential to maintain a guarantee of performance. simple as that. If you fill your table with high poly toys, you WILL reach a point when your HARDWARE tells you in no uncertain terms that is not going to take it anymore.

we are still ten years away from any more than about 0.25% of the home pcs out there being able to cope with an unlimited poly count. Mine may one day - I have dedicated ATI graphics on board (Yes DEDICATED - with its own ram) and two PCIE slots, all three able to crossfire together. 2 $700 graphics cards in such a configuration and I could remove the poly limits from my MMO and from FP - but nobody else will be able to play them!

[MAT]

I could not understand ... bitchin' ...

Future Pinball is free and will continue to be
free to download and use.

Again Thanks Chris we are in 2011 and I just update my 6 players pinball and had fun with the kids ... The highscore is a bit tricky but it works fine for the rest ;-)

Edited by MAT, 02 January 2011 - 12:54 AM.

[TheMcD]

Y'know, I wouldn't just trust Chris' word alone that the software will remain free. I've trusted developers a few times too many - they do like to lie when it helps them, and getting money helps them a bloody lot.

Just sayin'.

The McD

Edited by TheMcD, 02 January 2011 - 01:04 AM.

[magnox]

But the thing is, the polygon limit should be decided by the developer (i.e. us) and not arbitrarily imposed by the software engine. I see no reason why I should not be able to develop a table that runs on my high-end hardware. Of course, if I want to share said creation with the rest of the world then I would think about limiting the poly count, optimising the code etc. etc. FP is hardly Crysis now, is it ? Historically, virtual pinball peops have generally had.... how shall I put this... less than cutting edge hardware, and I can appreciate that one might attempt to make software useable by everyone. However, an artificial limit takes the control away from the table author - I reckon in a couple of years' time every cheapie netbook will be able to run FP at silly frame rates and a hard-wired object limit will look a bit daft. It is now an old engine, imposing illogical controls on the end-user and, if it stays the way it is, will not keep pace with hardware improvements.

That said, there is some amazing work being done in FP at the moment. In the same way that VP authors have overcome graphical limitations, the FP authors are starting to overcome the engine's limitations. Both packages are now being used in a way that I guess neither Randy nor Black ever foresaw. FP development is a year (or two) behind VP in some respects and VP has a major advantage for future development in that it is open source. I'll eat the desk I'm typing on if FP is ever open-source, but that doesn't stop me liking what it can do.

And, whilst I have the utmost respect for Destruk, I think it's a bit unfair to call the the GoPinball members the 'gimme' crowd. Recreating any SS machine in FP is not a trivial undertaking and I doubt we'll see Avatar or any of the new Stern platform releases anytime soon. Have a look at the forum and you'll see it's people pushing the boundaries, throwing ideas around and (occasionally!) a table gets built - it's not a pinball release factory. It's also very community based - there really is no one person who can do everything on an FP table to make it top quality - all the recreated tables are team efforts and I'm sure anyone who wants to see what is going on would be welcome.

Yes, the physics are sometimes awful. I've seen that ball hit the bumpers and been thrown straight back up the table which is physically impossible. I've also seen new pops built from kickers, magnets from drop walls.. someone will figure out a way to tame the odd bit of dreadful kinetics that FP sometimes throws at you.

VP is a battle against the visuals, FP is a battle against the physics engine but, right now, I'm enjoying the latter. (I still wish it supported VPM though!)

[Docwiz]

It's time like these that I wish I had lots of money so I could invest it in some coders to work on a new open source Future Pinball. I mean something very similar but open source and
something that uses rom images.

Maybe it would be possible for something like this to happen if people pulled their resources together, but I don't know if everyone would be up to that.

[Sabbat]

This would be a really good time for the slamit editor to come out.

[lettuce]

This would be a really good time for the slamit editor to come out.

Is that project still active ? Thought it was dead in the water, as there's been no mention of it for quite some time

[TheNalex]

And, whilst I have the utmost respect for Destruk, I think it's a bit unfair to call the the GoPinball members the 'gimme' crowd. Recreating any SS machine in FP is not a trivial undertaking and I doubt we'll see Avatar or any of the new Stern platform releases anytime soon. Have a look at the forum and you'll see it's people pushing the boundaries, throwing ideas around and (occasionally!) a table gets built - it's not a pinball release factory. It's also very community based - there really is no one person who can do everything on an FP table to make it top quality - all the recreated tables are team efforts and I'm sure anyone who wants to see what is going on would be welcome.

Thank you for summerizing my thoughts
You totally got the idea behind gopinball!

[Rawd]

This would be a really good time for the slamit editor to come out.

Is that project still active ? Thought it was dead in the water, as there's been no mention of it for quite some time

I'm willing to bet that it will never happen. I hope to be proven wrong.

[Greywolf]

@Magnox: Perhaps there should be warnings. What would be REALLY cool -- and this could actually be handled in the FPM Editor code, or a 3rd party post-analysis tool -- is if it would count the polygons and give a warning as to what would be needed to handle it.

[rehab]

I do not really understand the discussion about the update. People are very quick to demand this or that, but it is a free software and it is like it is. Nobody must play Future Piball if he does not like it. I myself love Future Pinball even though there are in fact some things that could be better, but I say thank you to Chris for giving us such a nice program as a gift.

Well said. Totally agree.

[Gravy]

I havent been bothered downloading the new version yet but if the internal filename is indeed 2009 as someone else stated then perhaps Black had intended on releasing this a year ago but never got around to it. If that is the case, the removal of the lighting adjustment settings in the registry might have actually been done before Rawd announced his find publically, and Greywolf's revelation shows that the loophole was going to be closed at some point.

If this is the case, then perhaps Black didnt remove it out of spite and simply hadnt been concerned with keeping the hidden settings in there. Its possible that he didnt even know the settings had been publically revealed and perhaps still doesnt.

Why he felt the need to remove the hidden feature though is another question. Perhaps Anthias is on the right track with that answer with regards to it possiblly affecting gameplay physics??

What is apparant though is that since this version no longer expires, my guess is that Black will no longer be updating the engine unless his interest is sparked again at some point in the future (pun???)

So... thanks to Black for keeping his promise of a new release and for all his work in the past. It wasnt what some of the community was hoping for but I think to have expected anything more was grabbing at straws given his level of interest in the project.

Me.... Im off to the beach again for a swim.

[Rawd]

I havent been bothered downloading the new version yet but if the internal filename is indeed 2009 as someone else stated then perhaps Black had intended on releasing this a year ago but never got around to it. If that is the case, the removal of the lighting adjustment settings in the registry might have actually been done before Rawd announced his find publically, and Greywolf's revelation shows that the loophole was going to be closed at some point.

If this is the case, then perhaps Black didnt remove it out of spite and simply hadnt been concerned with keeping the hidden settings in there. Its possible that he didnt even know the settings had been publically revealed and perhaps still doesnt.

Why he felt the need to remove the hidden feature though is another question. Perhaps Anthias is on the right track with that answer with regards to it possiblly affecting gameplay physics??

What is apparant though is that since this version no longer expires, my guess is that Black will no longer be updating the engine unless his interest is sparked again at some point in the future (pun???)

So... thanks to Black for keeping his promise of a new release and for all his work in the past. It wasnt what some of the community was hoping for but I think to have expected anything more was grabbing at straws given his level of interest in the project.

Me.... Im off to the beach again for a swim.

Good post Gravy. It's strange how we have to try to decipher Blacks intentions and motivations. Would love to hear from the man himself on these subjects.

I am going for a swim tomorrow as well, although not outside as it is -23 Celsius