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VP10 is here (beta)

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#961 Shockman

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 12:07 PM

Good question. I don't know how FP handles the shadows, but I don't think that VP looks flat because it doesn't show shadows at the moment. Shadows are planed of course but real time shadows have big impact to the performance. But maybe we add a different shadow map handling to VP. I haven't thought about that in detail though.

 

If not a different one we are better off without it. VP shadows were OK for their time, but flippers never had them, and dropped walls had their shadow remain. That would just not cut it anymore.

 

There are workarounds until VP software or system hardware has a good handle on it. To have old VP style shadows they could be drawn onto the resource graphic. To have better working shadows drop walls could be used, as they would rarely be active more than one at a time. Maybe using black and some modulation with lights will work.


Edited by Shockman, 21 February 2015 - 12:43 PM.


#962 fuzzel

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 02:27 PM

Exactly. On the other side shadow maps could be an option. You can use dynamic shadow maps but we have to think about it how that could be added to VP. At the moment there is enough work left to do so better fixing/tweaking things first and then adding new features to VP

#963 DedRok_V

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 03:14 PM

Latest rev, even on my crappy system, I can now repeatedly open the table without problem or crashing. Kudos on the ball fix too.

 

Although, I get star triggers staying down.

 

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#964 Slydog43

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 03:22 PM

Papa smurf table rollover stars are working fine for me.  I even threw many balls over the rollovers in debug mode and everything seems fine, strange.



#965 kiwi

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 03:34 PM

The undo does not update the form of TriggerWire in the editor after scaling it.

 

Thanks

 

Max



#966 fuzzel

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 04:06 PM

thanks Kiwi! Issue is fixed but please use the bug tracker next time ;)



#967 kiwi

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 04:41 PM

thanks Kiwi! Issue is fixed but please use the bug tracker next time ;)

Ok, I'll do it next time.

 

Max



#968 dark

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 05:03 PM

Well if dynamic shadows are too harsh on performance what about just having a tool to fake them like flasher object for shadows, 'shadow object'.  People would already do this if shades of grey/black + transparency would work with flasher object.  I know it's come up before in discussions regarding creating cast shadows.



#969 Shockman

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 06:22 PM

I have had two crashes since the fix. Funny thing is they came up after less edits and runs. But sometimes I seem to be able to edit and run as much as I need. I liked the old crashes better because I was warned to save then click close, now when it crashes it crashes.

 

The game running behind the editor window is worse though, but it has always happened a little bit, going back to before VP9. It's just the norm now and I am surprised when the game screen pops up.

 

The problem with the left flipper using the gamepad remains.

 

I want to read others confirming problems before I would enter it into a bug tracker.

 

An individual shadow making object would be fine with me.



#970 pincade

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 06:26 PM

I agree with ClarkKent, first impression of the new vp10 was a sense of flattening because of the lack of shadows. This impression is really amplified in bright Em table where shadows made the difference compared to future pinball that is born without shadows

#971 jimmyfingers

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 08:30 PM

Don't forget about the - new for VP10 - ambient occlusion in the general and table specific settings (plus adjustment for the effect level under lighting options).  It creates some decent shadowing of objects and the flippers and posts can look nicely enhanced with it.  It is somewhat demanding on performance and I believe at this moment it only works with nVidia video cards.  However, it can work at the same time as FXAA if you enable FXAA through the nVidia control panel instead of VP10s options.  With the other VP AA option, that looks even nicer than FXAA, AO can work as well but might push performance past a steady / vsyncable rate of 60 FPS.  
 
On my development system (Windows 7 32-bit 4 GB RAM, with 5 year old Intel Core i5 760 and nVidia GTX 560 Ti OC) I get around 112 FPS for Monster Bash WIP15 in DT / Desktop mode at 1080p with control panel FXAA enabled, AO in VP enabled and even using "Max prerendered frames" at 1 in VP preferences, which is more demanding than at 2 but better for flipper interaction / timing.  With the same setup but VP's 4xAntiAliasing instead of nVidia control panel FXAA enabled (now off), I get around 53 FPS.   In FS / Full Screen mode with all the same configurations, I get around 84 for DT and 32 for FS (reasonably shy of being able to vsync at a steady 60).  With my mini-cabinet, which is more current and has an nVidia GTX 760 OC, I get considerably better but run at 1440p in an HV mode so comparisons are not as straight forward.
 
Setting vsync on should be the standard now for VP10 with the physics decoupled from the FPS since the PhysMOD extension of VP.  As long as the computer configuration is capable of getting at least slightly over 60 FPS consistently, then vsync should smooth everything out nicely and be set for every table.  One important note though, is that with a locked in 60 FPS to a 60 Hz monitor you will get only one frame every 16.7 ms so it is important to turn down the VP preference of "Max prerendered frames" to 1 instead of 2.  It takes a little bit more performance but as long as vsync is used, you only need enough FPS to reach and stay at 60 (or 120 / 144 if you use some higher end computer monitors - only a handful of T.V.s can actually truly accept a 120hz signal at this point without frame skipping).  If "Max prerendered frames" is left at 2 then you have 2 full frames / 33.3 ms before what has happened in the VP program even begin to makes it to your eyes, plus have to add your display's input lag (which can be pretty high on T.V.s compared to computer monitors - the latter being used more for DT / mini-cabs) and then still have to add your controller's IO input lag on top of that (what you are reacting to will be older / already occurred and then your reaction / input has further delay depending on your keyboard / mouse / joystick handling).  Flipper accuracy can be severely affected by all these aspects of lag / delay plus the more subtle nuances of flipper tricks can become completely unavailable more so from the controller input lag side but also from reacting to "old" video information as to the current state / location of the ball can and does have an affect too.
 
The link below is from a post where I wrote about USB input lag / polling issues in Windows and some measures to improve the lag and as a simultaneous result the number of sample / points in time where inputs can occur.   The difference of 125 vs.1000 Hz for standard USB devices / drivers is time slices of 1 ms vs. 8 ms for a 125 Hz   (creating a smoother curve and more detailed points in time in which a button press / flipper switch command will register and as a result yield more varied leading to more realistic results).
 

Edited by jimmyfingers, 21 February 2015 - 08:38 PM.


#972 onemanproject

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 12:32 AM

It is not an issue, but in the editor the "rubber" should have a slingshot (point) option. The "wall" had a slingshot option - this is not necassary i think. Fuzzel and toxie what do you mean about this.



#973 Shockman

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 03:54 AM

In the new VP10 build way it is the rubber that does the slingshot animation and a wall that sets it's size and triggers it, does the job, and starts the rubber animation, the wall in that case does not animate. Old fashion wall slings still work too.

 

So it is the rubber not holding the sling trigger that makes the wall having it necessary.

 

If the rubber had it it would have to do it, not trigger something that does not exist unless it is built by the table builder. If it was easy to automatically animate a rubber they would have made it do it. I think they said they were going to try to make objects dynamic in VP11. 

 

It has a ring of illogic but it works fine. Old fashion for legacy, and a new nicer looking method. 



#974 Sindbad

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 09:06 PM

Hmmm... I'm not sure whether it already was discussed, so sorry if I ask a second time...

 

I miss the option "Sphere Map 3D Mesh" in the primitives options dialog. Is this option removed in VP10?



#975 bolt

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 10:10 PM

Wow, what for a fantastic Vector table. Looks beautiful and the gameplay is very good.

Thank you very much Sindbad.


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#976 fuzzel

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 10:30 PM

Hmmm... I'm not sure whether it already was discussed, so sorry if I ask a second time...
 
I miss the option "Sphere Map 3D Mesh" in the primitives options dialog. Is this option removed in VP10?

Yes there is no sphere mapping option anymore. If you need to simulate a reflective metal element than simply create a metal material and apply it to the element.

#977 Shockman

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 10:40 PM

The Vector WIP is nice. I especially like the drop targets. I am going to have to do that.



#978 fuzzel

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 02:18 PM

rev1730 is up:

 

- UI improvement: Search/Select Element dialog improved to show type of element and if supported the used image names
- fix undo handling for triggers
- camera mode: only react on key down
- set missing materials and adjust drawing order on the default table
- delete unused resources
 



#979 chepas

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 02:22 PM

- delete unused resources

 

ohhh yess!............no

 

:tapping:  You deleted your unused resources? I thought that was an option for unused table resources, sounds - images . /cry

 

Keep forgetting to mention it but the dimensions manager for BSD isn't right. It's the same width as other B/W machines 20.5".


Edited by chepas, 23 February 2015 - 02:31 PM.

Bump maps are the new auto-tune :BDH:
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#980 Chef Balsay

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 07:23 PM

Latest rev, even on my crappy system, I can now repeatedly open the table without problem or crashing. Kudos on the ball fix too.

 

Although, I get star triggers staying down.

 

papa.jpg

 

Good game Ded!!


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