1353 replies to this topic

[Drybonz]

The .net framework errors are B2S server, I believe... there's a experimental new B2S buried in the LE VPM thread at the other site.

 

*edit*  I would gladly link directly to the correct post if it weren't for site rules.  Instead we can play childish guessing games... good luck finding it... I think you all know the thread I'm talking about by now.

Edited by Drybonz, 26 November 2016 - 09:22 PM.

[blackvulcan3]

Hey all, just loaded up three tables on 10.2 for the first time.

 

All three tables are rotated to the right 90 degrees. (i.e the top of the playfield is on the RHS of the cab and the bottom of the playfield is on the left)

 

All my 10.1, 9.9 & 9.2 tables line up correctly on my cab.

 

Is there a new setting that I can't find on 10.2 that alters the cab aspect?

 

I tried the check box under the video resolution section in preferences. No luck.

 

Where else effects rotation?

 

EDIT (Obviously my desktop is set to 270 degrees rotation for the cab & one x-files is definitely not a DT table the other have no reference but appear to be FS tables also)

Edited by blackvulcan3, 27 November 2016 - 05:47 AM.

[Drybonz]

Nothing should have changed from your 10.1 settings if you were dropping the files in the same directory as your 10.1 and overwriting them.  Did you use some other method or change directories?

[blackvulcan3]

New directory. I have set up a new one for 10.2 after seeing a few glitches with some tables I am fond of moving from 10.1 to 10.2.

 

Standard install. 10.1 tables still work perfectly.

[Drybonz]

Ah... you should check your 10.1 install and see if you can find the setting you haven't reproduced in the new one.  It's probably the "always use FS" checkbox in video or I think there is one in the default VPM setup.  

[blackvulcan3]

It'll be something simple Drybonz. Just can't get my head round it right now. Frustrating.

 

EDIT - I just deleted the second install and updated what I had. That seems to have solved everything bar x-files which I solved by tinkering with the table settings as both DT and FS were set to 0 for rotation. The other fixed themselves on updating my old files. Live and learn.

Edited by blackvulcan3, 27 November 2016 - 09:39 AM.

[toxie]

I sent Fuzzel a PM, but for all others, this is what I would like to achieve in VPX:

 

This is made in Blender, but not rendered: it is a displacement map for fake refraction, and on top of that a fake glossy texture I made. This is the node setup in Blender:

My node setup is just to show the effect, in VPX this should work with a primitive and a displacement map.

 

If you do not have the fake refraction by a displacement map, the shot looks like a ghost ramp:

 

So if this is possible in VPX, it would make a big difference in visuals! Hope I am not ranting...

 

Back in action, and slowly catching up, so lets start with this one:

As Fuzzel mentioned, this is not so much dependent on displacement mapping, but rather doing some correct refraction. For this we would have to insert yet another pass into the rendering pipeline to fake refraction (you will never get the same quality as with ray tracing like in Blender, btw).

[fuzzel]

Yes.I did some tests on this and it's not that easy to add I thought. The biggest problem is if you have multiple transparent elements stacked over each other and if you just want one to be refraction mapped then it looks totally wrong because the depth sorting isn't correct anymore. To solve this we must render the dynamic elements twice and then you really need a fast high end card

[flupper1]

 

 

 

Back in action, and slowly catching up, so lets start with this one:

As Fuzzel mentioned, this is not so much dependent on displacement mapping, but rather doing some correct refraction. For this we would have to insert yet another pass into the rendering pipeline to fake refraction (you will never get the same quality as with ray tracing like in Blender, btw).

 

Correct refraction seems like a (fps) expensive solution, since it needs at least some vector calculations for applying the fresnel equations. I also rendered my example above with blender by using a refractive node, then it takes more than a minute to render. Luckily, the human eye (at least my eyes) cannot obviously see which are true refractions and which are faked somehow. That is how I found people using displacement mapping (even in 2D) with a simple B&W texture (for instance like I did above, with the facing parameter in Blender defining color, black = facing, white = parallel to view), to fake refraction. Since it is only 2D pixel shifting, based on a static displacement texture, I hoped it would be possible to include it in VPX. And by using precalculated displacement maps and prerendered reflection maps (like above), you would get an approximation of the raytraced view, without a heavy performance penalty.

 

 

Yes.I did some tests on this and it's not that easy to add I thought. The biggest problem is if you have multiple transparent elements stacked over each other and if you just want one to be refraction mapped then it looks totally wrong because the depth sorting isn't correct anymore. To solve this we must render the dynamic elements twice and then you really need a fast high end card

Not easily giving up hope from my end, some "what if's" (without rendering all dynamic elements twice of course and just to hopefully trigger a way around the issues):

- Refracting not all at once, but per object: What if you need to specify in the editor every object which is to be refracted (default=no, a checkbox in the object properties). After rendering that object normally with lighting (hope it works like this), a refraction pass is executed for just that object. So not a refraction after everything else, just per dynamic object done. Not sure if this works the same for static objects or you need to do it once for all static objects.

- Splitting the depth bias ranges: What if you would have all normal objects (which can be refracted), need to be below a certain depth bias? Everything above that depth bias threshold, will be rendered on top of the refraction.

- Making the refraction object/texture only one per table: What if you would need to make one big primitive which has one big refraction texture, which does all the refraction? This could make it impossible to have refraction on refraction.

I do not know how the rendering pipeline exactly works, so all above is guesswork from my end. Just hope this triggers a brainwave for a possible solution/workaround. 

[toxie]

i like your enthusiasm on the topic, but these are some real pro-hacks that only the most hardcore users would be able to use for their tables.

 

also, precalculating a map would bypass the day->night slider and the possibility to tweak the camera/view.

 

the refraction vector calcs, btw, shouldn't be very expensive to-do, so the only difficult/expensive part is that one would need to do better sorting for all transparent objects and then the lookup into the already rendered image.

 

and, finally, in real life pinball tables, the amount of refraction on plastic ramps is really really subtle usually.

[dark]

I've been trying to mimic this effect in my texture bakes by baking reflected/refracted table elements, but at the end of the day it's pretty fake.  I've studied how plastics distort in some detail and basically any flat surface plastic will have little to no distortion, but bent areas such as the areas of ramp where floor and walls meet or the lips on the ramp are what will cause the distortion because those areas are in fact 'bending' light.  I think the depiction that flupper has rendered is fairly realistic.  When I first read about this concept I was immediately excited at the prospect but experience has taught me to have a healthy level of scepticism.  I asked if an effect like this could be made possible back in early vpx beta days (refraction in general not the normal map hack idea).  I imagine this would be challenging to implement, but if it's possible I'd like to second flupper's request for this.

[fuzzel]

Well the fake way by using a normal map with an additional factor is easy to implement, the only problem is that you have to render all dynamic elements twice that are above or partly above that refraction mapped element and the cost is rather high compared to the gained effect.

[flupper1]

I was hoping that there would be a way/trick around rendering stuff twice, but if that is not possible, the cost is quite high for this effect. Just to show the effect refraction has I highlighted areas heavily influenced by refraction in these shots of Diner:

In my perception this is significant for the realism of the transparent ramps. 

[toxie]

some day we will have much faster ray tracing, maybe even HW accelerated like the PowerVR architecture already features, and then we can pimp VP more easily to feature such effects without all the performance penalty. 

[Drybonz]

then we can pimp VP more easily  

 

Now you are talking!   

[BorgDog]

Feature request/idea.

 

Basically an option to run VPX in "play mode" where when launched it just gives you the list of downloaded tables and when selected plays them, and when exited back to that list.  There would be an option to select "edit mode" where it would then open the table in the editor as it does now. and you could select either mode as a default, non-authors/editors would not need to ever see the editor if they didn't want to, or if you just wanted to play tables for a while would save a few steps switching tables.   

 

I think that would be easy enough to implement and would be a nice user friendly feature. Not everyone needs/wants pinballx or some other fancy front end.

 

Just a thought.

[fuzzel]

Hm I'm not a big fan of such a feature. The main purpose of VP is to build and play a table and not to support yet another pinball selection front-end even if it's just a simple one.

Edited by fuzzel, 29 November 2016 - 02:18 PM.

[toxie]

Me, too. Also nowadays all user-tweakable options are even in one single spot, so its not unlikely that users will tweak some setting there.

[BorgDog]

OK, was just an idea.  I think for most people out there the main purpose of VP is to play tables, very small proportion actually building, but yes tweaking likely done by most.  Just thought it might be more user friendly for new people, not really a front end, just having the File, Open dialog and then auto play.  

 

How about this, on the File Open window have a button that says Open and Play?.. yes I'm seriously lazy 

[Thalamus]

I don't want it - so, 3 vs 1 by now. Get yourself a frontend ... problem solved, even for you ;-)