2087 replies to this topic

[Tropi]

Don't get me wrong, the new version is running stable (as far as I could test) in the same quality as the DX7 version does.
I'm focussing on smoother VP parts not on graphic overlays as I can't improve them more than as the orginal is.
In order to squeeze more quality out of the new version I tried several different graphic setting. I'm not the most experienced one in graphic settings, so my tests most probably need to fail.
Therefore I'm looking for a good combination of VP and nVidia setting to start further tweaks from.
I saw some improvements with enabling AA, but as reported earlier in this thread also for me it resulted in flickering. This is mainly what I try to get rid actually. Vsync seems to somehow play a role here, but I haven't figured out meaningful settings here.

Edited by Tropi, 01 March 2014 - 01:36 PM.

[Argo]

@Tropi: if you just set FXAA from ncp you don't have flickering.

[gtxjoe]

Defender table - http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=8791

win7x64 gtx660

 

All items below can be fixed at table level.  Main concern is item 1- the image decal has a minimum clearance for items placed on top of it.  This should addressed or documented somewhere in the table editor to avoid confusion/frustration for authors 

 

1) Image decal (wood texture on side rails) used on surface 53h(height of 53.2) is showing on top of Plastics (ramp) with height of 55.  (Screw has sufficient height to be displayed - Edit:  The screws won't have sufficient height, if I raise the plastic height, hmmm, I think I will not use the decal for this purpose any longer.  I think I recall that someone suggested use of ramps for this...)

Fix:  Set plastics elements (plasticsOff and plasticsOn) height to 58.  

Decals probably behave this way so they are not masked by light inserts placed below, but this causes side effect of objects above decals need to be at minimum height above the decal.  Maybe in the Decal Options window add a comment that decals have a minimum height of X if it is final implementation

 

 

2) Black light insert issue like other tables.  

Fix:  Set pf and pf_on image transparency to black fixes light insert issue.  

 

3) Fixing black insert issue causes side effect, because the playfield contains pure black also, this causes background of table to show through

Fix:  Make a copy of the pf.png image.  It is currently used for table image and PFGI light off image.  Need to make these independent.  Export pf.png.  Make copy called pfbase.png.  Import pfbase.png (transparency set to neon green).  Change Table image to pfbase.png

Edited by gtxjoe, 01 March 2014 - 02:21 PM.

[DJRobX]

The halos in TAF VP 9.2 Gold FS mod seem to be stuck overly bright.

 

Table:

http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=8638

 

DX7:

 

 

DX9:

 

 

Rocky & Bullwinkle still has flickering elements in the upper left, and a blinking pinball.    Updated spreadsheet to include these.

Edited by DJRobX, 01 March 2014 - 03:50 PM.

[Arcade4]

Dracula GI8 is perfect now

 

small bug in class of 1812

 

http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=6409

 

9.2 181292.png

dx9 1812dx9.png

 

the ball is half cut into the hole

I have noticed that on most every game with a kickout hole. 

The ball gets cut in half just like you pictured.

Totally forgot to mention it.

[jimmyfingers]

3) Fixing black insert issue causes side effect, because the playfield contains pure black also, this causes background of table to show through

Fix:  Make a copy of the pf.png image.  It is currently used for table image and PFGI light off image.  Need to make these independent.  Export pf.png.  Make copy called pfbase.png.  Import pfbase.png (transparency set to neon green).  Change Table image to pfbase.png

If pure black shows through on the PF image now, after setting the transparency manually to pure black in the image manager, than it would have before as well when all pure blacks in images (bound to lights at least) would have been transparent via the old DX7 "bug" / "feabture". The "real" way you want to fix this and really should have been done originally, is at the PF / PFGI graphics program stage and to ensure nothing is pure black in the image except for the black mask overlay for the inserts.  I had this problem at the very beginning of discovering and using this technique as VP was not going to distinguish between pure black areas you want to be transparent and the ones that inadvertently are.   Easiest way to fix this is keep your black mask layer above your main PF graphics and apply a "Levels" Adjustment Layer in between and above to the PF images and increase the output level from the default 0-255 to 2-255 which will ensure that no pure black exists in the image.

Dracula GI8 is perfect now

 

small bug in class of 1812

 

http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=6409

 

9.2 181292.png

dx9 1812dx9.png

 

the ball is half cut into the hole

This is likely happening because you have some form of AA enabled now (traditional AA is still flickering at the moment but I believe even with FXAA the ball cut in half problem will be present and was in the previous DX7 versions).  It appears from your screen captures that you have some type of AA enabled as the bumper base is clearly more smooth around the edges in the DX9 picture than that of the DX7 comparison.

 

For everyone having ball cut in half issues from the kickers, check your AA / FXAA settings from the program itself and / or the table (override) settings as well as the nVidia control panel forced global or program specific configurations (I imagine the ATI one as well but I'm not sure if the same problems happen with ATI as I do not have any to test with and use nVidia in all my systems).  

Edited by jimmyfingers, 01 March 2014 - 05:21 PM.

[DJRobX]

This is likely happening because you have some form of AA enabled now (traditional AA is still flickering at the moment but I believe even with FXAA the ball cut in half problem will be present and was in the previous DX7 versions).  It appears from your screen captures that you have some type of AA enabled as the bumper base is clearly more smooth around the edges in the DX9 picture than that of the DX7 comparison.

 

For everyone having ball cut in half issues from the kickers, check your AA / FXAA settings from the program itself and / or the table (override) settings as well as the nVidia control panel forced global or program specific configurations (I imagine the ATI one as well but I'm not sure if the same problems happen with ATI as I do not have any to test with and use nVidia in all my systems).  

 

 

I have the same problems with balls being cut in half on a lot of tables, and all of the *AA stuff is off.   Elvira and the Party Monsters is a good example.  It's fine in the DX7 build. 

Edited by DJRobX, 01 March 2014 - 05:36 PM.

[htamas]

 

I have the same problems with balls being cut in half on a lot of tables, and all of the *AA stuff is off.   Elvira and the Party Monsters is a good example.  It's fine in the DX7 build. 

 

Same here.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, in Nitro Ground Shaker the ball is not just cut in half but completely disappears when it drops into a kicker hole.

[jimmyfingers]

 

This is likely happening because you have some form of AA enabled now (traditional AA is still flickering at the moment but I believe even with FXAA the ball cut in half problem will be present and was in the previous DX7 versions).  It appears from your screen captures that you have some type of AA enabled as the bumper base is clearly more smooth around the edges in the DX9 picture than that of the DX7 comparison.

 

For everyone having ball cut in half issues from the kickers, check your AA / FXAA settings from the program itself and / or the table (override) settings as well as the nVidia control panel forced global or program specific configurations (I imagine the ATI one as well but I'm not sure if the same problems happen with ATI as I do not have any to test with and use nVidia in all my systems).  

 

 

I have the same problems with balls being cut in half on a lot of tables, and all of the *AA stuff is off.   Elvira and the Party Monsters is a good example.  It's fine in the DX7 build. 

 

What exact version of Elvira and the Party Montetrs are you using - I will grab it and check it out. In the case that no AA is at all invoked, then maybe it's possible that the rendering changes to the VP9 DX9 have triggered something similar as to what previously happened with DX7 versions when AA was employed.  There is a work-around on those tables (if it follows the same as the DX7 work-around).  Place the kickers on a height of something between 8h and 15h.  Because all the VP playing I have done is with AA on, I have had to adjust this on a number of tables and confirm / address on any of my mods.  I have found that 8h is as low as you can go (DX7 at least) and have the problem resolve.  It changes the look of the ball height slightly in FS mode but is a reasonable trade-off for what was previously allowing AA to run and fix the cut in half aspect.

[gtxjoe]

JF - Thanks for the photoshop tip, on subsequent tables I was doing a color replacement of 0,0,0 to 2,2,2 except where I wanted transparency.  The adjustment layer approach is better.  Correct - my first table I didn't know any better...

 

No issues to report on:

Scared Stiff

Back to the Future

Medieval Madness

Abra Ca Dabra

Addams Family

 

Space shuttle rosve 1.3 cab release  

(link to 1.1 as 1.3 is elsewere:  http://www.vpforums....&showfile=7589)

Side walls on gate are visible.  Maybe a legacy bug though, as the VP9 9.2.1 seems to have the issue, just not as pronounced. see pic

Edited by gtxjoe, 01 March 2014 - 07:56 PM.

[kiwi]

ATI user, I confirm that the ball is cut in half.

 

Max

[DJRobX]

What exact version of Elvira and the Party Montetrs are you using - I will grab it and check it out.

 

 

http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9003 - the daytime version 

 

-- Rob 

[Horrible]

It looks like there has been great progress made here. Once it is generally felt that a version is ready for release for people to use in ernest, would it be possible for someone who understands what they are doing (as opposed to those like myself) to produce either screen dumps or a full video guide similar to this:
http://www.vpforums....e=2#entry251682 to show recommended set ups for NVIDIA and or ATI card users?

Edited by Horrible, 01 March 2014 - 06:14 PM.

[Slydog43]

well ball is still cut off in Class of 1812 FS with DX9-test7 and no FXAA or AA turned on.  (I'm actually happy about that since I really like to have FXAA turned on since the flippers look so smooth with it).

 

Any ideas on a fix for the table or do you think it needs changes to VP (VP 9.21 does NOT have this behavior).

[ClarkKent]

I noticed a problem with certain complex dB2S backglasses like the animated one for AFM (http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=8938) for JPs latest beta4 or the animated one for MM.

 

With these complex backglasses the ball stutters a lot with the new DX9 version. This does not happen with the old DX7 releases. If using another backglass without any animations (lights only) the ball stutter is gone.

 

Can you investigate? I really want to use the animated backglasses!

[jimmyfingers]

Confirmed the ball cut-off and it can be resolved as purported with setting the kicker in question to either "KickerHidden" or "KickerInvisible" and placing on a surface of 5-10 in height (I use 8h which seems to work with most tables but on a quick default table overhead view I could go smaller and down to 5 so it will depend a bit on the view settings).  

 

So, that's all you need to do to fix it at a table level.  Most tables will have a couple *h objects so find one like 15h or 25h, copy it in place (make sure it's not in view on the table), rename it to 8h, and adjust the height from what it was to 8 ("Top Height").  Then make sure the desired kicker "surface" field is set to this new 8h and that the kicker "Display" field near the top is either of the to modes mentioned.  

[kiwi]

Space shuttle rosve 1.3 cab release  

(link to 1.1 as 1.3 is elsewere:  http://www.vpforums....&showfile=7589)

Side walls on gate are visible.  Maybe a legacy bug though, as the VP9 9.2.1 seems to have the issue, just not as pronounced. see pic

 

 

 

 

Table feedback:  

In both situations (VP921-DX9), is resolved by changing the color of the gate with pure green RGB (0,255,0), the same color of the transparency of the gate image.

 

Max

[slashbot]

I got the same issue small lines apear with terminator2
Its due its windowed maybe some knows howto fix it?
See screenshots


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[mukuste]

 

Could someone paste a screen shot of their nvidia 3d settings and VP9 DX9 video settings they use?
Thanks

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk

Yes, good idea. I would be interested in too.

First of all thanks a lot to all of you guys for the great improvements which you have brought to VP during the last months.
I don't want to be ignorant, but I was under the impression the look of the tables would improve significantly with DX9, but as fas as I can recognize it is "just" a port to the newer DX verison. I assume what I'm looking for is more the AA part to get all those ramps, rails and flippers less stepped.
Most probably my setting are far away from optimum, but all combinations I tried so far resulted in being even more worse or crashes or error messages.
A hint for a good combination of VP setting and NVidia settings would very much appreciated.

 

Unfortunately such magic doesn't happen by itself, we'll have to work on providing new features to improve the graphical quality, and table authors will have to learn how to work with them. DX9 just gives us the technological base on which to build these new features.

 

However, if all you're looking for is better antialiasing to reduce the jaggies: the FXAA in VP itself still seems to be buggy for many people, but you can force FXAA on in the NVidia control panel (if you have an NVidia card; I'm sure ATI has something equivalent) and it seems to work very well for many people.

 

 

 

Defender table - http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=8791

win7x64 gtx660

 

All items below can be fixed at table level.  Main concern is item 1- the image decal has a minimum clearance for items placed on top of it.  This should addressed or documented somewhere in the table editor to avoid confusion/frustration for authors 

 

1) Image decal (wood texture on side rails) used on surface 53h(height of 53.2) is showing on top of Plastics (ramp) with height of 55.  (Screw has sufficient height to be displayed - Edit:  The screws won't have sufficient height, if I raise the plastic height, hmmm, I think I will not use the decal for this purpose any longer.  I think I recall that someone suggested use of ramps for this...)

Fix:  Set plastics elements (plasticsOff and plasticsOn) height to 58.  

Decals probably behave this way so they are not masked by light inserts placed below, but this causes side effect of objects above decals need to be at minimum height above the decal.  Maybe in the Decal Options window add a comment that decals have a minimum height of X if it is final implementation

 

 

2) Black light insert issue like other tables.  

Fix:  Set pf and pf_on image transparency to black fixes light insert issue.  

 

3) Fixing black insert issue causes side effect, because the playfield contains pure black also, this causes background of table to show through

Fix:  Make a copy of the pf.png image.  It is currently used for table image and PFGI light off image.  Need to make these independent.  Export pf.png.  Make copy called pfbase.png.  Import pfbase.png (transparency set to neon green).  Change Table image to pfbase.png

 

1) Sorry about this, I forgot to adjust the decal depth bias values after the depth buffer fix. The clearance needed should be much lower in the next release, I hope this fixes your issue.

 

2/3) Yes, that's the proper fix. I'm surprised you didn't get these background shining through problems in earlier VP versions, but JF already explained you how to fix it. Another approach instead of using 2/2/2 as a non-transparent black is to use a true alpha channel in your texture and set the transparency color to something unused.

 

 

 

The halos in TAF VP 9.2 Gold FS mod seem to be stuck overly bright.

 

Table:

http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=8638

 

Rocky & Bullwinkle still has flickering elements in the upper left, and a blinking pinball.    Updated spreadsheet to include these.

 

TAF: I don't know, might it be an ordering issue? Will check when I have time.

R&B: As far as I remember, that table had AA/FXAA forced on in its per-table settings. I don't know why we actually have these as per-table settings, but you'll want to set these to -1 to pick up the global defaults.

Same fix (per-table AA) applies to Champion Pub!

 

 

 

 

Dracula GI8 is perfect now

 

small bug in class of 1812

 

http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=6409

 

9.2 181292.png

dx9 1812dx9.png

 

the ball is half cut into the hole

I have noticed that on most every game with a kickout hole. 

The ball gets cut in half just like you pictured.

Totally forgot to mention it.

 

 

That's a known issue (well, to me at least ), and it happens universally regardless of video card and settings. I think I mentioned something to that effect in the release where I fixed kickers from all-out terrible (showing through other table elements) to only mildly terrible (cutting balls in half), but it was several releases back, so I don't blame anyone for missing it. I know why it happens but I still haven't worked out how best to fix it. But it will be fixed at some point, so I recommend not using any workarounds at this point unless you really need your table to be perfect in the DX9 renderer RIGHT NOW.

Edited by mukuste, 01 March 2014 - 08:11 PM.

[htamas]

Confirmed the ball cut-off and it can be resolved as purported with setting the kicker in question to either "KickerHidden" or "KickerInvisible" and placing on a surface of 5-10 in height (I use 8h which seems to work with most tables but on a quick default table overhead view I could go smaller and down to 5 so it will depend a bit on the view settings).  

 

So, that's all you need to do to fix it at a table level.  Most tables will have a couple *h objects so find one like 15h or 25h, copy it in place (make sure it's not in view on the table), rename it to 8h, and adjust the height from what it was to 8 ("Top Height").  Then make sure the desired kicker "surface" field is set to this new 8h and that the kicker "Display" field near the top is either of the to modes mentioned.  

 

Color me clueless, but I have a hard time following this

I tried to fix Nitro Ground Shaker but don't know how to do what you described. There is no height adjustment I could see for kicker objects and in that table there was no *h object either.

I guess even if this is a possible way, it cannot be the solution going forward since most people will not know how to fix the kicker problem and it is unlikely that all table authors will update their tables to keep them compatible with the DX9 player. So hopefully there will be a way to correct this in VP instead of having to modify all tables that have a kicker cup.