126 replies to this topic

[wiesshund]

Ok so the cabinet layer is what seems to do it. If i add any layer all is good. Yes i get random little pink areas, but the cabinet layer just wipes out the playfield.  Any ideas based on those results. Thanks for any insight.

Delete floor001

 

It has no physical effect on the table

it is just to have something show behind the transparent holes around the drop targets etc

just a visual gimmick not important

See if that does anything

 

If not

 

Next things of 0 importance are the ramps
All the ramps in cab layer can be deleted, looks only

 

The reason for the pink is simply that no materials have been imported

 

But at least we are getting somewhere

 

Now the only thing special about the floor001 is it sits below the table bottom at a negative elevation
Nothing else really special about it, but perhaps that causes the issue.

 

At least we have it down to one very simple layer
and we can then have the devs look at how the offending item is handled

and what might be done about it

[loganchihuahua]

Ok. Progress. Deleting the floor001 brought the Playfield back!  Which is amazing. 

i tried it on twister. Deleted the floor on that one, and also on Congo. Not the same result. Playfield is missing on Twister still and pink in mini playfield on congo is missing.

 

However, maybe we can learn something from floor001 on Alien? It seems to be interpreting its z axis higher than the playfield and maybe that is happening for congo and twister and others on different materials?

Edited by loganchihuahua, 13 October 2021 - 01:22 AM.

[wiesshund]

Off hand, it seems to be an issue with something at a negative Z axis

 

So it you take the real LTD Alien Warrior table
and just delete floor001 from layer cabinet and then launch it, does it look and play fine?

 

If so, then maybe we got something to show the devs to look at

[loganchihuahua]

That is correct. If i take a default Alien Warrior table and remove floor001 I can play the table normally just like on the Nvida Rig.  How do we report this?

[loganchihuahua]

Ok i also just removed off layer 10, PinCab Bottom on the Twister Table and now that one is totally fine.

 

 

Ok one more update. You don't actually have to delete Floor001 off of Alien or Pincab Bottom off layer 10 of the twister table. All you have to do is uncheck Top Visible and the playfield will return. In order to get that option on Pincab Bottom on Twister you have to remove it from VR CAB collection then you can uncheck Top Visible.  

 

 

Congo.  I was able to find some walls on Layers 4 and 7 that once i unchecked Top Visible and Sides visible the pink went away and now Congo is completely fixed. 

 

So it has something to do with Floors and walls having Top visible and sides visible. 

 

Update - I got Cactus canyon partially fixed. Wall 23 in layer 1. If you take off top visible and sides visible part of the pink disappears. The last bit of pink is removed if you uncheck visible on the subway attached to this wall.

 

Working on Medieval now. This one is hard. The doors are missing where the trolls come out. They are just black spaces. This one is a bit harder to figure out.

 

 

 

Still don't know why this is happening on series 6000 amd video cards though.

Edited by loganchihuahua, 13 October 2021 - 06:19 AM.

[wiesshund]

Ok i also just removed off layer 10, PinCab Bottom on the Twister Table and now that one is totally fine.

 

 

Ok one more update. You don't actually have to delete Floor001 off of Alien or Pincab Bottom off layer 10 of the twister table. All you have to do is uncheck Top Visible and the playfield will return. In order to get that option on Pincab Bottom on Twister you have to remove it from VR CAB collection then you can uncheck Top Visible.  

 

 

Congo.  I was able to find some walls on Layers 4 and 7 that once i unchecked Top Visible and Sides visible the pink went away and now Congo is completely fixed. 

 

So it has something to do with Floors and walls having Top visible and sides visible. 

 

Update - I got Cactus canyon partially fixed. Wall 23 in layer 1. If you take off top visible and sides visible part of the pink disappears. The last bit of pink is removed if you uncheck visible on the subway attached to this wall.

 

Working on Medieval now. This one is hard. The doors are missing where the trolls come out. They are just black spaces. This one is a bit harder to figure out.

 

 

 

Still don't know why this is happening on series 6000 amd video cards though.

It sounds like some kind of depth issue, when some objects are either above or below the playfield?

 

@Toxie @Fuzzel
When you guys have time, check what we cahve come up with so far.

[fuzzel]

I still believe it's a driver issue. The tables seem to work without problems on Nvidia cards. The rendering pipeline is the same for both cards. Only the initialization can be a bit different. It's quite hard to test changes if you don't have the hardware that causes the issues.

[loganchihuahua]

I would tend to agree. I have no problems with nvidia. My other nvidia cards work fine.  I just have this nice 6700xt now i am trying to use lol and not waste the money i speant on it. Not sure how to get amd to help with this. I reported it in a bug report but i kind of doubt they looked at it. If its not a mainstream game i think its hard to get their attention. Especially on virtual pinball which requires some knowledge to get it even running. Not sure what to do. They would have to install it, find the rom and table etc and somehow i dont think they will do that. 
 

Its bizarre that deselecting top visible and sides visible on certain walls and floors fixes the issue somewhat. It does seem like the amd driver is misinterpreting the z axis on certain objects. @Fuzzel

Edited by loganchihuahua, 13 October 2021 - 07:02 AM.

[wiesshund]

I would tend to agree. I have no problems with nvidia. My other nvidia cards work fine.  I just have this nice 6700xt now i am trying to use lol and not waste the money i speant on it. Not sure how to get amd to help with this. I reported it in a bug report but i kind of doubt they looked at it. If its not a mainstream game i think its hard to get their attention. Especially on virtual pinball which requires some knowledge to get it even running. Not sure what to do. They would have to install it, find the rom and table etc and somehow i dont think they will do that. 
 

Its bizarre that deselecting top visible and sides visible on certain walls and floors fixes the issue somewhat. It does seem like the amd driver is misinterpreting the z axis on certain objects. @Fuzzel

Well, it seems that it has to do with a textured surface being below the Z axis of the playfield

 

Plastics cause you no issue, they are walls with visible top and sides and transparencies and reflections etc, Alien Warrior is anyways.
And those give you no issues.

It is one simple object, a wall with no special properties or effects, that sits under the playfield, simply so that when you have the table on a cab
and look where targets and switches go through what would be a hole on the real thing, you can actually see the object go through the playfield (cause the texture is transparent there) and there is something below it rather than just black void, so you see kind of a dim cab bottom.

 

This means that possibly some other tables that have negative Z plane objects may work bad also
like a table with a lower playfield etc.

 

Do me a favor?

 

Make an empty table

 

now make a wall, and make it roughly the size of the playfield

and then set its position so the top is say -50 and the bottom - anything greater than 50

 

dont give it a texture or a material yet

set top and bottom visible

see if playfield turns black on launch

 

if it does not, give it a material, say plastic opaque

launch and test again

 

if still ok, give it a texture and retest.

 

What i am looking to see that is

Is it just the fact that the object itself is visible?

 

Or does either the material or texture trigger the problem

 

You might also test if the size of the object has any bearing on the problem.
If wall is made just a little square does entire playfield still vanish?

 

But this is a good thing really

We have a cause, even if we do not know the exact details yet, we know what causes it.

 

And while a tedious bit of trial and error, we know how to fix a table for you, on a per table basis.

 

It is worth noting that many tables use little walls that you never see, that may be flagged as top visible simply because they are not seen and the author does not think about them.
These are most often used as elevation points and may sit below the playfield
You use these to lower things like targets, drop targets, rollover switches, gates, and kickers and even lamps, when you want them to sit a bit lower than the Z plane of the playfield itself.

 

Useful for when you do not a wire switch looking so damned tall
or you want a kicker to actually sit a bit below something for a more realistic hole effect, or having gates sit at the right level, or getting lamps to go down to a lower playfield

or Up also.

So there are some tables where one of those kinds of elevation walls might trigger the problem

[loganchihuahua]

I'll spend some time on this, and report back.  Noticed another table that i fixed with a floor visible. The latest creature from the black lagoon.  The hole where the monster comes out was blocked out with a black box that corresponded to a floor that i had to uncheck the top visible. Good grief. 

[wiesshund]

I'll spend some time on this, and report back.  Noticed another table that i fixed with a floor visible. The latest creature from the black lagoon.  The hole where the monster comes out was blocked out with a black box that corresponded to a floor that i had to uncheck the top visible. Good grief. 

is it only walls? 

if a ramp is at the same negative height does ramp cause same issue?

[godgives]

I hope someone can fix this

[Dexjee]

thank you loganchihuahua and wiesshund for all the progress on this topic

 

I can confirm loganchihuahua findings in post #65 - tried it on the mentioned tables as well and the texture problems are gone.

[loganchihuahua]

You are very welcome Dexjee. I want to thank Wiesshund for all the ideas when he doesn't even have a 6000 series!  

 

I have more good news.I have been playing with this a long time, but I figured out Medieval.  So Wiesshund, this bug may may also have to do with reflections in a negative z space.  So in layer 7 of Skitso's Medieval.  There are two lift gates that are currently black holes on the render. If you change the negative -104 to -40 on  the liftr or liftl  you will start to see the texture, but it is elevated over the hole. So that isn't good.  If you choose to not make visible the rtroll or ltroll that are inside, then  part of the lift gate shows up but not all of it, and then the trolls don't show up. 

 

However, if you turn off reflections on rtroll, ltroll liftR and liftL, Then table is fixed. So something about reflections in a negative Z space. If you take off reflections it works. This is a different cause then on Alien etc..

Dexjee try turning off reflections on those 4 items in layer 7 and see if the table is fixed for you.

 

Wiesshund thoughts?

Edited by loganchihuahua, 16 October 2021 - 12:04 AM.

[loganchihuahua]

I found another one.  Baywatch.  There is an undertable subway. You need to uncheck visible. Man.  It just keeps coming.  

 

By the way. Anyone know how to make the Sega Rom display on a pindmd. Its all squished. Never been able to fix that.

Edited by loganchihuahua, 16 October 2021 - 02:16 AM.

[wiesshund]

I found another one.  Baywatch.  There is an undertable subway. You need to uncheck visible. Man.  It just keeps coming.  

 

By the way. Anyone know how to make the Sega Rom display on a [Pin2DMD uses stolen and/or infringes IP. PinDMD is the genuine product ] non XL. Its all squished. Never been able to fix that.  

I think that is because the sega displays used an odd aspect ratio in their DMDs

Does not fit a standard DMD, i think freezy's attempts to refit it best as possible?

 

On the table thing, we gonna have to wait for Toxie and Fuzzel to look at what we discovered
from what i understand, both of them are slammed with real life right now, and unlike me, they are probably not in a room with 10 computers in it, one of which might happen to be doing something pinball related
(and might also wind up sitting ignored for the next 18 hours too, all things depending)

[loganchihuahua]

No worries. At least we found fixes so those with a 6000 series can enjoy the tables.  Hopefully people can also apply these fixes. I hope what we have discovered can lead to a better solution than unchecking visible and reflection boxes on random objects. LOL  Thanks so much.  If anything i am very more versed in the constructs of a table thanks to this. 

[wiesshund]

No worries. At least we found fixes so those with a 6000 series can enjoy the tables.  Hopefully people can also apply these fixes. I hope what we have discovered can lead to a better solution than unchecking visible and reflection boxes on random objects. LOL  Thanks so much.  If anything i am very more versed in the constructs of a table thanks to this. 

 

well because we now know what object on a given table causes the issue, how the object is placed and its properties
that should give them something to look at as to how the vertical handling of objects and textures goes

 

maybe they could try some things and have you test the exe.

Maybe AMD went and decided to enhance the depth buffer differently or something.

 

Since if is DX9, i am not sure if this might help or not, forcing shader caching
since the option is no longer in the driver control panel

 

Open Regedit.exe, go to

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class{4d36e968-e325-11ce-bfc1-08002be10318}\0000\UMD

, then change "ShaderCache" from "30 00" or "31 00" to "32 00".

(30 00 = off / 31 00 = AMD Optimized / 32 00 = Always On).

Save and Reboot.

[loganchihuahua]

 

 

Well this is interesting. This does not exist as an entry.  Perhaps they removed it entirely for this card series. Its not an available entry in the registry under UMD.

Edited by loganchihuahua, 16 October 2021 - 05:18 AM.

[wiesshund]

 

 

 

Well this is interesting. This does not exist as an entry.  Perhaps they removed it entirely for this card series. Its not an available entry in the registry under UMD.

 

 

You may have to add it as an entry, as it may very well not be there