1103 replies to this topic

[roar]

 

Well... it looks like my "interference" may very well be the leaf switches... I noticed when I pushed the buttons in ever so lightly so that the leaf switch barely made contact I'd get the erratic behavior... then for whatever reason I pushed on the outer portion of the leaf switch with my finger to make the contact manually rather than using the button and it works reliably with a firm push... so on go the micro switches... too bad really, I was going with leaf switches on the flipper buttons for the 'authentic feel'... but I spent some time trying to dial in the leaf switches and it just isn't worth it... I still get the erratic behavior with really light touches.

 

Well that's too bad - I prefer the feel of the leaf switches as well.  Hopefully we can figure out a way to get them working.

 

Are they new equipment or did you get them used?  If they're used, you might just need to clean the contacts to remove oxidation.

 

The next version of the software might help with this, too.  The debouncing algorithm is better at handling noisy make/break events.

 

If all else fails, you might look into some pinball opto interrupter switches.  The later Williams/Bally machines use these for their flipper buttons. They feel almost exactly like leaf switches, but they have much cleaner electrical characteristics (and longer life, which is probably the main reason the pinball makers converted to them).  I think those would give you a much more pleasing feel than microswitches, plus they'd fit better mechanically.

 

The leaf switches are brand new... I spent a bunch of time this afternoon trying to align them just right. I thought I had things sorted when they were out of the test rig, but as soon as I put them back in the test rig the symptoms came back... which makes me wonder if the solenoids firing right beside them may be causing some vibration that may be causing my problem. Things were looking really good outside the test rig, quite frustrating. You mentioned a software update that may help, any thoughts on when that may be ready to test? I'd be happy to give it a go. I did switch to micro switches and I didn't enjoy the experience. I also went make to pulling the plug on the solenoids and the problem does go away altogether... so now I'm thinking vibrations again.

[Stephanas]

Hi mjr,

First of all, I'm really admiring the incredible work you do for all of us and I would like to thank you for it.

I've got two requests about the pinscape and it's expansion board.

I would like to know how to make Zebsboard's digital plunger kit work with your pinscape and pinscape expansion board.

And could you show me high def pictures of your three finished boards so I could feel... more confident, when making them and soldering all these composents ?

Edited by Stephanas, 13 April 2016 - 09:49 PM.

[mjr]

I would like to know how to make Zebsboard's digital plunger kit work with your pinscape and pinscape expansion board.

 

I'm not sure what you mean - "work with" in what sense?  Co-existence in the same system?  As far as I know there should be no inherent conflict, but if you're having problems I can try to help you look into it.  "Work with" in the sense of connecting them together somehow?  I don't know how you'd do that, but if you have something in mind, tell me more and I'll see if I can help.

 

 

And could you show me high def pictures of your three finished boards so I could feel... more confident, when making them and soldering all these composents ?

 

I'll definitely include photos in the build guide when I get to that.

[TerryRed]

I just started following this project, and I'm quite impressed mjr. I have an arcade and virtual pinball combo cabinet that you can see the details about here:

 

http://www.vpforums....=34005&p=335202

 

I currently have all of my 28 led buttons and sticks (and 6 small rgb led strips with 3 IR controllers) connected to my CPU PSU (750W), via molex at 12 VDC

 

 

I'm basically looking at trying to add controlled lighting and minimal feedback at first for as cheaply as possible to keep me from becoming single:

 

-5 rgb led strips to act as flashers (sides and back of playfield screen, speaker panels)

-2 strobes

-2 flipper solenoids connected to zebs opto flipper board (this allows the flipper solenoids to work directly with the buttons for ALL games (PFX2, TPA, etc)

-3 solenoids for bumpers, etc...

-use leftover outputs to control leds for my 28 buttons / joysticks for MAME

 

This is what I want to start with, while having future additions (motors, more solenoids, etc) still possible.

 

I want to be able to use this with VP and FP.

 

Future Pinball functionality through LED-Wiz is a priority for me.

 

===================================================

 

These are my questions I hope you can answer:

 

-With this pinscape / expansion board, am I bascially getting an all in one solution that doesn't need anything else except for :    a power supply, and output devices (solenoids, leds,etc) and maybe diodes for the solenoids, or whatever else to control power needed for those devices?

 

-Will this completely function as an LED-Wiz for Future Pinball (and anything else)? This is very important to me.

 

-I have a spare ATX PSU that is at least 350W, maybe up to 500W, would that be sufficient for mostly everything I need.

 

-could I use leftover ports to work with LED-blinky for MAME, etc to control the 28 LEDs for my arcade buttons and sticks (and would they have to act as a 2nd led wiz?)

 

====================================================

 

I've been an electronics tech for 20 years and have done more soldering and repair than one could imagine. (through-hole, surface mount, and BGA) So creating these boards would be easy for me as long as I have the parts and PCB layouts that show me everything I need to know. Sadly where I live, there are NO parts stores, so I need to get everything online!

 

I'm not an electronics engineer, so designing this kind of stuff is something I'm not good at. However, you do speak my language. Your skill and knowledge mjr is quite impressive. 

 

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank-you.

Edited by TerryRed, 21 April 2016 - 07:11 PM.

[mjr]

These are my questions I hope you can answer:

 

-With this pinscape / expansion board, am I bascially getting an all in one solution that doesn't need anything else except for: a power supply, and output devices (solenoids, leds,etc) and maybe diodes for the solenoids?

 

Right, that's pretty much what you need.  There are of course all of the parts that go into building the boards, but it's all very self-contained.  The Mouser shopping carts referenced on the project page should give you a good estimate for the total price.   Apart from the boards and components that go into building them, you just need the power supply (or supplies - you might need multiple voltages for a mix of devices), and the devices you want to connect.  There's also the plunger option if you want it, but that can be omitted entirely or added on any time later.

 

 

-Will this completely function as an LED-Wiz for Future Pinball (and anything else)? This is very important to me.

 

Yes, the software emulates an LedWiz for compatibility with non-DOF software.  I think it's 100% compatible.  The one caveat is that the LedWiz is inherently limited to 32 output ports, whereas the expansion boards can go higher than that.  That means that non-DOF software that's using the LedWiz interface can only access the first 32 ports.  If you're going to hook up more than 32 devices, you'll just want to make sure that the first 32 ports are assigned to the devices that you want all software to be able to access.

 

 

-I have a spare ATX PSU that is at least 350W, maybe up to 500W, would that be sufficient for mostly everything I need.

 

That'll work fine - that's plenty of power for everything in a typical cab.  The only snag is that ATX supplies only have 5V and 12V outputs, so you might need to add one or more additional power supplies if you need other voltages.  E.g., many contactors require 24V, and real pinball coils (e.g., knockers) need 30-50V.   If you're only going to use 12V and 5V devices, though, that ATX PSU should be all you need.

 

 

-could I use leftover ports to work with LED-blinky to control the 25 LEDs for my arcade buttons and sticks (and would they have to act as a 2nd led wiz?)

 

Probably not directly, because of that 32-port LedWiz limit.  The device software can only emulate one LedWiz at a time - it doesn't have a way to pretend to be two separate LedWiz's on a single KL25Z.

 

However, if you could come up with some DOF-based software that does the same thing as Led-Blinky, you can make this work.  Using DOF lets you access up to 128 ports on the boards, which would give you lots of spare ports for the other LEDs.

 

Another possibility is that you could build two copies of the main board, and use two KL25Zs.  The second KL25Z can emulate a second LedWiz, so you could dedicate that one to being the LedBlinky controller.  How big (in terms of amps or milliamps) are the LEDs you're talking about?  If they're small LEDs in the 20-30mA ballpark, the second main board would give you 32 ports with enough power to drive them (the 16 flasher/strobe ports can each handle 1.5A, and the 16 "flipper button" ports can handle up to about 60mA each).

 

Or you could just dedicate a real LedWiz for the button lights, since the price wouldn't be too different from building a second copy of the main board.  The boards coexist happily with real LedWiz's.

[BorgDog]

On the pinball knocker coils I picked up some Gottlieb system 1 knockers that originally ran on 25V and work great at 24V so that can save you from having more power supplies if you already are putting in 24V for contactors. I also picked up a couple used flipper mechs from the same era that I'm going to add as well.  Knockers at least (MA-12) can be still found new at places like Marco Speciaties and PBResource.

[roar]

After waiting more than 60 days for parts to arrive from China I finally got some but not the ones I was hoping for. I got my strobes and my heat sinks but no rgbs, still waiting on those.

I picked up strobes that are 12V but when I measure the pins on the main board I see only one pin has 3.3V on it and I can't seem to find any voltage on the other 3 pins.

First question is why does the strobe output have 4 pins and second question can I get 12V sent there. For now I just moved it over to the power board and it works there but I'm curious to know if I've made a mistake or just bought the wrong strobes.

[mjr]

After waiting more than 60 days for parts to arrive from China I finally got some but not the ones I was hoping for. I got my strobes and my heat sinks but no rgbs, still waiting on those.

I picked up strobes that are 12V but when I measure the pins on the main board I see only one pin has 3.3V on it and I can't seem to find any voltage on the other 3 pins.

First question is why does the strobe output have 4 pins and second question can I get 12V sent there. For now I just moved it over to the power board and it works there but I'm curious to know if I've made a mistake or just bought the wrong strobes.

 

The labeling is pretty confusing for the strobe now that I look at it.  The strobe is actually the pin closest to the "STROBE" label on the 2-pin connector (JP9), not the 4-pin connector (JP12).  

 

That little arrow makes it look like the word STROBE is supposed to be pointing to the JP12 pin, but the arrow and the STROBE label aren't actually connected.  The arrow is separate - it's part of the JP12 cluster, and it just means "this is pin 1 of this header".  Almost all of the headers throughout the board have an arrow like this to tell you where pin 1 is, in case you're trying to match it up with the schematics and you're not sure how the pin numbering corresponds.

 

Here's a diagram showing how the label is intended to be grouped - hopefully this will make it clear which pin you're really after.

 

 

 

As for the voltage, you're fine with 12V.  The strobe works like all of the outputs:  you connect the negative side of the device to the STROBE pin on the board, and you connect the positive side to the +12V on your power supply, as in the diagram below.

 

Also connect the negative terminals of all of your feedback device power supplies together and to the "GND" on the "2ND PSU" connector on the Pinscape board.  That's the trick that lets you mix different voltages for different devices.  The Pinscape board doesn't care about the voltages in each device because it's always connected to the negative side of every device, which are all at "zero volts".  That way you can have a +5V power supply for your LEDs, a +12V supply for the strobe and your motors, a +24V supply for your contactors, a +35V or +40V supply for your knocker coil, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, that 4-pin connector "JP12" is the "Expansion" connector.  The name is a little redundant - it's an expansion connector for the expansion board.  It doesn't have any specific purpose right now; it's there for future use.  It simply gives you direct connections to four extra GPIO ports that aren't used for anything else with the expansion boards.  You can use them for button inputs if you needed a few more buttons, for example (the setup program even knows about the header and lets you map button wires there).  The real motivation behind the extra connector was to allow for a data channel to additional peripherals, in case anyone thinks up clever add-ons in the future.

Edited by mjr, 29 May 2016 - 03:29 AM.

[roar]

Thanks mjr, that's obvious now that you say... you'd think I'd catch on to this by now eh?

 

I'm not sure what you're using for your strobes, but I've got this little black box running between mine with a pcb in it and some components. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to cut that out of the equation and go straight to the lights or if DOF depends on that for the strobing effect it offers where the lights don't stay on solid, they just flash when I supply power and a signal to them using your DOF test tool.

[mjr]

Thanks mjr, that's obvious now that you say... you'd think I'd catch on to this by now eh?

 

I'm not sure what you're using for your strobes, but I've got this little black box running between mine with a pcb in it and some components. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to cut that out of the equation and go straight to the lights or if DOF depends on that for the strobing effect it offers where the lights don't stay on solid, they just flash when I supply power and a signal to them using your DOF test tool.

 

I think I've got the same kind, more or less.  You'll probably want to remove the black box so that DOF can control the timing of the light effects.  

 

The DOF config tool formerly had an option that let you tell it whether you had the black box installed or not, but it looks like that's gone now.  So I guess the new assumption is that everyone chops off the box.  The box's function is just to make the lights flash at a fixed rate when you apply power.  Taking off the box makes the LEDs stay on without flashing as long as power is supplied.  That's good because it lets DOF control the exact duration of the flashes.  The standard DOF config does in fact take advantage of this to flash the lights according to the game play - sometimes it uses long flashes, sometimes short flashes.  With the box attached it doesn't have control over the duration or frequency like that.

 

I was a little concerned when I first removed the box that the LEDs might not be designed for continuous operation, in terms of heat dissipation, but I tested that and they seem to stay nice and cool even if you leave them on for long stretches.

Edited by mjr, 29 May 2016 - 09:43 PM.

[roar]

 

Thanks mjr, that's obvious now that you say... you'd think I'd catch on to this by now eh?

 

I'm not sure what you're using for your strobes, but I've got this little black box running between mine with a pcb in it and some components. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to cut that out of the equation and go straight to the lights or if DOF depends on that for the strobing effect it offers where the lights don't stay on solid, they just flash when I supply power and a signal to them using your DOF test tool.

 

I think I've got the same kind, more or less.  You'll probably want to remove the black box so that DOF can control the timing of the light effects.  

 

The DOF config tool formerly had an option that let you tell it whether you had the black box installed or not, but it looks like that's gone now.  So I guess the new assumption is that everyone chops off the box.  The box's function is just to make the lights flash at a fixed rate when you apply power.  Taking off the box makes the LEDs stay on without flashing as long as power is supplied.  That's good because it lets DOF control the exact duration of the flashes.  The standard DOF config does in fact take advantage of this to flash the lights according to the game play - sometimes it uses long flashes, sometimes short flashes.  With the box attached it doesn't have control over the duration or frequency like that.

 

I was a little concerned when I first removed the box that the LEDs might not be designed for continuous operation, in terms of heat dissipation, but I tested that and they seem to stay nice and cool even if you leave them on for long stretches.

 

 

Thanks mjr, everything you said were the thoughts running through my head but with fears of there being a diode on that board or something to regulate the power and then me blowing up the strobes I waited 60 days for was not terribly appealing They only cost $11, Canadian no less! So it was a money thing, it was at time thing. I finally started my cabinet build this week and I'm really excited to get everything moved over to the "real" thing. A long road to go there yet, but it should be fun.

 

I'm having trouble sourcing a reasonably priced motor and gear box at the moment. All the links to those motors people were using seem to be gone. Aliexpress has to have something but I'm not confident on what I need, I'd love to run a 12V one so I don't need yet another power supply in this thing, any thoughts on a motor mjr?

Thanks again for your help.

[mjr]

Thanks mjr, everything you said were the thoughts running through my head but with fears of there being a diode on that board or something to regulate the power and then me blowing up the strobes I waited 60 days for was not terribly appealing

 

I completely understand!  I had the same concerns about power regulation, but with the ones I have, at least, the necessary resistors seem to be integrated into the LED panels.  Hopefully they're all built the same way.  If you have an ammeter you could probably try connecting it inline with the power just to make sure the power draw looks reasonable - I think it shouldn't be more than about 500mA per panel.  But I think it's a good bet that these are all the same design.

 

 

I'm having trouble sourcing a reasonably priced motor and gear box at the moment. All the links to those motors people were using seem to be gone. Aliexpress has to have something but I'm not confident on what I need, I'd love to run a 12V one so I don't need yet another power supply in this thing, any thoughts on a motor mjr?

 

Are you looking for a gear motor, shaker or fan?  For the gear motors, some people like the cheap robotics motors that you can get from Chinese sellers on eBay - those were in the $12 range last I looked.  I use one of the replacement VM wiper motors that several people recommend.  Those are pricier, I think about $35.  They're also pretty big and heavy, and draw a ton of power (mine runs at about 4A steady state - a lot, but still well within the safe range for the power board).  The robotics motors are probably easier to deal with since they're so much smaller, but some people say their sound is kind of whiny.  Personally I find the wiper motor to be okay, but it's a bit expensive for the little bit of sound effect it adds.

 

Search for this part number on eBay for the VW motor:  251955119191955113A

 

For the shaker motor, I'm afraid all of my parts are among those outdated references you can't find anywhere any more.  The only advice I have is to check out Surplus Center.  They have lots of small DC motors that at least in the right ballpark, and they usually have very good prices.  Look for a 12VDC motor with relatively low RPMs, in the 3000 range.  High torque is important as well, but low RPMs should serve as a good proxy for that.  The shaker motor design I used is here:

 

http://www.vpforums....=13#entry143713
 

It's a great design, but of course that particular motor is impossible to find now.  I don't actually think it's essential to find a dual-shaft motor like darkfall's design calls for, although it does help to balance out the forces and stress on the bearings.  If you can find an inexpensive single-shaft model that otherwise looks the right specs, I'd give that a try.  If it's cheap you can just replace it if it wears out prematurely.

 

If you're adding a fan, most people use a fan designed for cars or boats, since those will run on 12VDC.  I built a custom job based on the Whirlwind fan - I happened across a pinside article in which someone sleuthed out the original OEM part that Williams used (manufacturer Thorgren, model #6C2504C1, 6" diameter, four-blade fan that fits a 1/4" motor shaft; it was originally a part designed for microwave ovens! )  I found one on eBay and stuck it on one of those common 12VDC motors.  I'm rather pleased with it because of subtle homage to Whirlwind, but it's a bit more work, since you have to come up with your mounting stand for the motor and your own housing.  (The again, the housing was a big part of the fun for me - I created a 3D-printed plastic housing to fit the theme of my cabinet artwork and integrate with all the other stuff making up the "topper".)

[roar]

Thanks for all that mjr. I've been going back and forth on the gear motor. $35 US + shipping to Canada likely is a lot for a toy that I believe is seldom used. The shaker motor is more what I'm looking for. I'll probably try a motor or two from China and see what I can come up with. On the fan side I really like randr's implementation of the fan through the coin door, but I've also seen people put fan's in the speaker cut outs... I'm thinking about that too. Not sure I want anything on top of my cabinet.

[mjr]

Thanks for all that mjr. I've been going back and forth on the gear motor. $35 US + shipping to Canada likely is a lot for a toy that I believe is seldom used. The shaker motor is more what I'm looking for. I'll probably try a motor or two from China and see what I can come up with. On the fan side I really like randr's implementation of the fan through the coin door, but I've also seen people put fan's in the speaker cut outs... I'm thinking about that too. Not sure I want anything on top of my cabinet.

 

The gear motor actually gets a lot more use than you'd think - it seems like most tables from the alphanumeric era on have something motorized on the playfield.  But even so, I find it to be the least compelling of all of my feedback devices.  The only thing it does is make noise, and the noise it makes doesn't really demand a separate physical source - this one's really okay with digital audio, in my opinion.  All of the other feedback devices have either a light-show aspect (like the flashers and strobe) that the regular video monitor can't approach in terms of brightness, a tactile effect (contactors, shaker, fan), and/or a sound effect that digital audio doesn't do justice (knocker, contactors, bells, chimes).  The gear motor is the only one where there's no tactile effect to it at all and you don't even want the sound to be all that strident.  But as I always point out when I mention all of this, I am utterly alone in my ambivalence on gear motors - everyone else loves their gear motors.

 

But the shaker is a must.  If I had a budget for only one toy, that's the one I'd put in.  The effect is dramatic and truly adds to the game.

 

And I really like the fan even though it's such a silly novelty item.  I have a great appreciation for tactile effects - they make such a difference in raising the experience above ordinary video game play.

[Les73gTx]

here is a current link for the motor I used for my shaker .... I believe it is the same motor that stern currently uses ... I know it is what they have used in the past.

 

http://www.ebay.com/...sd=141416152500

[mjr]

here is a current link for the motor I used for my shaker .... I believe it is the same motor that stern currently uses ... I know it is what they have used in the past.

 

That looks like it'll work great with Darkfall's design.  

 

Since the eBay link will inevitably break at some point, for the sake of future readers coming across this thread, the motor referenced is: manufacturer Johnson, model HC970.

[Les73gTx]

this is a link to my Shaker motor build ... I over built it a bit but it has been going strong for about a year now .... I like my counter weight setup as I can add more weight very easily and was very inexpensive to make.

 

I had a thread here someplace on the build of the shaker, but it has seemed to have gone missing. I can't find it now anyways 

 

https://www.dropbox....OSq3iIs2-a?dl=0

[roar]

Thanks so much for this info. Time to build a shaker motor.

Edit: Just reviewed your build pictures. A lot of stuff in there I don't have the parts to handle, like the taping of the bolt to add the counter weights. Looks like it is time to do some more tool shopping I've got an email out to the email seller asking if he'd ship to Canada, we will see what he says.

Edited by roar, 31 May 2016 - 01:08 PM.

[Les73gTx]

The Bolts were something I had left over from a automotive project and also have the nuts that match. The large hole for the shaft is 1/4 inch drill bit and it fits sung. The small hole in the end gets tapped for a machine thread "jam" bolt, this can be anything really but I believe it was 1/8 inch drill bit used and then tapped. You need to use a thread lock on this "jam" set screw and I even put some thread lock on the shaft hole also. I am able to add weight by just threading on the nut all the way down ... use thread lock here also if you add the nut for added weight. The feel is very authentic to Earthshaker and the newer Sterns like Mustang and Star Trek

[hauntfreaks]

I've been following this thread...  and recently got the suggested motor for the shaker.... thank for all the info

so i'm wonder what gear motor / wiper motor is the DIY community using now??