However, I feel that the above is just "the right thing to do".
I didn't think this was about what "was right", but about people demanding stuff.
& I feel that fixing any major bugs or indifference's in a recreation is just being respectful to the original real table creators.
Same as above. I think this was more about people bugging "why isn't this fixed yet?" and not about continueing to improve a table one build.
Nevermind the "leechers". & in regards to that, some people have trouble finding time just to play tables, let alone learn the editor & work on them themselves.
Everybody in the world has roughly the same amount of time available to them. Nobody is forced to spent his time this or that way.
They aren't just lazy. & on top of that, knowing the inner workings of pinball machines, switches, lamps, code, & the editor. That is no small task.
It's not as big a task as e.g. getting a doctors title. I started with
VP in around May, and Stargate was build between Sept.,1st and Nov.,12th. And things like changing a table from desktop to
FS (or vice versa) or replacing graphics are even easier.
Just because it might of all come easily to you doesn't mean it will to everybody. It took me A LOT of time (years) to learn what I know about pinball & VP. More time than what many people have to spare.
Maybe so. And of course there's always more to learn. And people decide themselves how much time they want to spent on something. It's just the attitute to demand something they could do them selves and just couldn't be bothered.
Because I knew ZERO about computers or how pinball works, when I first got into VP. To many people, working on tables might as well be rocket science. Its tough. I still struggle with code because my brain just isn't wired well for that side of things.
Yes, coding is like learning a new language plus higher mathematics. It's a lot of work. But in
VP you can actually copy nearly everything from other tables. (Nearly) everything you need has already been build. And if not, there's somebody you can ask for help.
Most of us have no background in code or game making or working on pinball machines, but we still like to play it & be a part of it. This is kinda complicated stuff we are dealing with, so I'm not about to call anybody "lazy" who isn't able to get into it for whatever reasons.
Nobody expects beginners to create a table with jpsalas or unclewilly quality. But it's easier to do something than you make it seem.
Use Itchigo's template like Faralos or the music table template like Aaron James to create something. Record table videos like bitupset. Create UVPs (which is REALLY easy!). Collect stuff for
HP media packs. Whatever. Just don't stand there and demand: someone make a
FS out of this, why isn't this table updated for
VP9 etc.etc. It's all about the attitude.
& my take on things is that, let's say I really don't feel like doing a FS conversion. I will do it anyways, because it will be a positive thing for the community if I do so.
As i did with the desktop version of Stargate. But it was more then just a couple of minutes as you suggested before. Every update, i have to do the changes two times (or even three in my case).
& what is good for the community is also good for pinball & VP as a whole, & what is good for that, in the end, is what is good for me & the hobby I enjoy. So if we all spend a small fraction of our time doing something that perhaps we don't enjoy so much, it still benefits us in the long run. Just like volunteering at a soup kitchen. I don't enjoy that work at all, but my donating time helps many other people, which helps the community, which in turn helps me. How many of us enjoy our jobs all the time? Not many, but you do it for the reward (money). Here, just swap money with pinball. Not everybody has to feel this way & I'm fine with whoever doesn't. Its just my personal politics. I truly am fine with whatever anybody wants to do.
I'm not acting any different if you see my upload history.
Lastly, lets say hypothetically that every member here did have the skills to do build tables. Let's say that a FS author chooses not to convert their new table to desktop, but it is still a table that very much needs a new version or update for desktop users. OK, so maybe a thousand people who would have downloaded the desktop version will now download the FS table & convert it themselves to desktop. All is good, right? No, not really. Why?
Because if the original author had just spent 30 minutes converting & sharing a desktop version, that is 30 total man minutes lost in the VP community. But when a thousand people in the community have to burn 30 minutes of their time, that is 500 man hours lost in the community. You know how much quality playing time that is? Or how many tables from scratch could of been built with that time?
My point exactly! The rules about uploaded mods, while i totally understand why they have been instated, are so 2002. I stated before that IMHO tables should be free to upload when the original authors no longer take care of the table.
Sometimes it works out, when rosve and jpsalas allowed me to upload the
B2S version of Cirqus Voltaire. Other times it doesn't work out when i'm not allowed to upload a table i spend 10-20 hours on to update the graphics.
It shouldn't have to be the original author who has to upload the
FS/desktop/updated table, it should be anybody. I would love to upload the many
FS tables i created from desktop/spanned tables. On the other hand - when i do, i get comments like "why haven't the graphics been updated" etc. This is the "demand" attitude and it sucks.
& let's step outside of the hypothetical world, it is even worse in this world because at least in the fictitious one everybody gets to enjoy the table. Here, hundreds or thousands don't get to enjoy it at all, as would be the case with a 100% reel based table. But with a reel based table, that is a different story because so much extra work has to go into it, but it doesn't change the fact that so many can't play it. Bummer for sure, but its nobody's fault.
"Enjoy what has been build and be satisfied with it."
So while nobody has to do anything or owe anybody anything... it is just my personal opinion that some of this stuff is just a good idea. Nobody should feel pressured to do anything. I know I don't let what other people say affect what I want to do, unless I want it to. I would hope other people feel the same way about my comments. Its all just meant to throw around harmless thoughts for discussion or for people to ponder. I think its healthy to have discussions on these sorts of things every now & then.
I like discussions!
As you said: nobody has to do anything and owes anybody anything.
If you personally feel you should do something - go ahead. But not because there's a demographic that suggest this or that or because a small full-throated(? "lautstark" in german) group demands something.
Edited by hmueck, 12 December 2012 - 01:26 PM.
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Rob is also a table builder and modder, he's converted a lot of stuff he's worked on to both desktop and FS versions, even though he's not a FS user. I actually thought that was decent of him.
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