89 replies to this topic

[FDSystems]

Hey Street Cachoro!
Tem leis que não pegam la fora tambem!

[StrayDog]

@Bob5453: Only if your mom is the owner of williams, Bally, Stern or Gottlieb, if not, no thanks , is not legally valid

For others, who write here pushing my balls, i repeat : open another thread, there are still questions unanswered, and for starters saying that is for the love of pinball and after making this fun of a thread like this is iincoherence

Edited by StrayDog, 09 March 2012 - 10:35 PM.

[oooPLAYER1ooo]

Please instead of all the bullshit tell me what you want to know about legality of roms being used and I will personally ask the boss of WMs in Australasia next week when I'll be sitting down with him.

I know when I explain there is some random guy who says we can't use your 20 yr old software you know what he will say. What's pinball? we moved 20,000 slot machines last month is that pinball?

[wildman]

[Arcade4]

@Bob5453: Only if your mom is the owner of williams, Bally, Stern or Gottlieb, if not, no thanks , is not legally valid

For others, who write here pushing my balls, i repeat : open another thread

This thread is already one to many.
Not one good thing could possibly happen because of your pot stirring.
StrayDog has now been officially put on ignore.

[JAM0]

+1

[FDSystems]

Vira-lata barks, don´t bite.

[StrayDog]

I Clearly don´t understand, why being so harsh with me, i´ve made fair questions, i didn´t offend anybody, and now people saying Just put StrayDog on ignore, why even say it, you could have done it no writing it.

@Player1, that would be great, i´m not saying this for me, but for all the pinball players here on the site, why don´t write a statement where this community ask the use of the roms and IP of pinball images for free entertainment, leaving to them all the rights to change their idea if they feel to (this was clearly not the best words, i think the concept of whay i´m typing is clear). Since as i understood they-re not anymore interested in the pinball business, for them will not be a problem signing the paper, and it would clearly be great benefit for the community, and legal protection, with the result of nobody being sued iof the company change his views of the work done here, plus total transparency, which is a great thing.

I know it´s probably just a dream, but it-s no harm try it

O vira lata aqui ta so falando,, nao to latindo nem mordendo,se voce quer ver as coisas nesse jeito, to latindo porque cachorro nao fala, mais poi eh, and why bite i´m not here to do harm on anybody, i´ve made questions because i care, period

I didn´t know what was pot stirring, now i know, and to just put things clear, i asked questions, i receveid some thread related answers from the different views of different people, some people expressing their feelings about another thread on this argument (not helpful, and out of context), and after a while for me not so good jokes satire harassing, people laughing without explainin just like when an ignorant ask something and others laugh because they thought they know better, it´s mocking, and it does not feel good.

Edited by StrayDog, 10 March 2012 - 12:52 AM.

[oooPLAYER1ooo]

You need to understand how these sort of companies work

Signing a piece of paper cost them a fortune in legal fees as there lawyers would write the piece of paper

The board of directors would need to fully sign over the rights of the to the public domain
Then there is contact breaches then due to there licensing agreements with 3rd party ip holders for doing so and not seeking permission to do so.

To sign the piece of paper is not a profitable buisness move so it will never happen.

Just enjoy pinball or don't it's your choice. But nobody here is qualified to give you a 100% legal binding agreement so please forget about this thread and contact the ceo's of these companies

[destruk]

I don't think anyone truly was bothered by your question StrayDog, I know I wasn't offended by it. Just I don't really want to rehash this topic again - I had my own say quite a few threads ago and it gets old, so I tend to stay out of it.

[StrayDog]

@Destruk: yeah, i remember your name, i red these older topics

@player1: I thought about that before you replied,and that´s a shame, they don´t even care about the product unless there´s money involved, there-s no law for specific case such as this one or abandonware, so it´s completely illegal, even if it can be morally correct when it´s not done for money, these companies does not get money for this productions anymore, or they cease to exist years ago, there´s no law covering the speed of electronic business, the only copyrighted business i recall which products become obsolete and hard to find.

Entertainment it´[s not under, so it-s nether fair us

Last question, can EM recreation and pinball without roms be considered as fan art? technically is a derivative work, it simulates the ball physics, but still, it-s not the same, same for bumpers and such, the tables graphics which are the same is the part missing

[The Loafer]

Here's the legal scoop and an attempt to answer your questions in consideration of how I think you view this:

- you have no legal right to use roms, unless you own the roms or the machine itself (which means you then own the roms)
- you have no legal right to use any of the art since you have no permission to do so
- Even if you are the original artist, you probably STILL don't have the right to use it since you probably signed over the write to the original pinball manufacturer
- You worked on the original pin? Who cares! The manufacturer probably possesses the sole rights to any work done on their part, including drawing, designing, art assets, sound assets, etc.

For all the above, let it be clear, there is no legal rights for you to use it. If you decide to go ahead, you do so at your own risks, it probably means you are breaking the law and whether or not you feel you are a scumbucket, that's up to you to decide, we won't judge.

- You want to know if they will sign off on "fair use"? As correctly mentioned above, consider how requesting legal rights work

Example:
1) Letter is received at Sega/Gottlieb/Bally/Stern/Williams asking if art assets and/or rom can be used
2) Sega/Gottlieb/Bally/Stern/Williams now needs to consult with a few lawyers, there is a $$$ associated with this
3) Sega/Gottlieb/Bally/Stern/Williams now needs to figure out who they've licensed the assets too, because they will be impacted as well. There will be costs associated with this.
4) Sega/Gottlieb/Bally/Stern/Williams now needs to figure out if the assets you are requesting are assets THEY have licensed from others, including arts/sounds/actors, etc. There will be costs associated with this.
5) Sega/Gottlieb/Bally/Stern/Williams now needs to approach their board of directors on this issue. Board of Directors will want to ensure 2 things:
a) that any costs they've incurred are recovered
b) this can open their eyes to any financial opportunities
6) Sega/Gottlieb/Bally/Stern/Williams now has to respond to your letter. There is a cost associated with this.

7) You can freaking figure out the rest yourself

If some have showed annoyance, and I do not speak for them, just for me, it's because the way you have worded their questions, they do not seem to be questions, but statements. You already have indicated clearly your view on rights so you know most of the answer to your questions. It's up to you to decide but I will tell you, you will never, ever, ever get a legal response to your questions. I can't be clearer than that so...

... Have a nice freaking day

Loaf

edited to remove offending #7

Edited by The Loafer, 10 March 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[Centrox]

I have one more thing to add.



Would anyone like some toast? How about a muffin?

[The Loafer]

I could use an advil myself...

[FDSystems]

I have one more thing to add.



Would anyone like some toast? How about a muffin?

Acarajé ?

[Itchigo]

Here's the bottom line: You will never get a letter from the manufacturers saying it's ok. Why? Because they give up rights whenever they say anythings ok. If they say this is ok and later find out they could've done something else, they've lost out. They will not make that mistake so they "tolerate" us until a problem arises from it.

Five words for you- Don't ask, Don't tell, enjoy!

[wildman]

I have one more thing to add.



Would anyone like some toast? How about a muffin?

A muffin and a coffee and your on..lol then we can sit around and keep watchin this stupid thread
then later I take you out for a couple of

Edited by wildman, 10 March 2012 - 05:38 PM.

[destruk]

You go way too far Rob. I take issue with your comment #7.

Noah has talked with Rick at Planetary Pinball and he said he does not care if we use their roms, as long as we don't host the LED hacked roms.
When the Williams and Bally rights were licensed to Wayne in Australia, Wayne himself posted on the Future Pinball Forum exclaiming how excited and happy he was that Future Pinball was recreating Williams and Bally games.
Wayne did send me a C&D about Star Wars Episode 1/Pinball 2000 - and look, you don't see it here do you? duh. He could have just as easily sent us a letter about the other roms, but he likes those being used.
I myself contacted Williams numerous times trying to track down roms, and they sent us some.
Williams and Bally signed an agreement for 15 of their game roms to be used on Ultrapin - a commercial endeavor that cost >$375,000 - which they would not have been able to do if it wasn't for visual pinball and pinmame
The PinMAME dev team has sent bug fixes to Stern for their whitestar 2 system and they even included Steve Ellenoff and Gerrit Volkenborn "thanks messages" in the Nascar and/or Grand Prix romsets for it
Steve has talked with Gary Stern in person
Steve has worked on other pinball software programs for Farsight Studios, and I helped a little with the sound support for those, and Farsight has had direct current contact with Williams/Bally
They are fully aware of this site, and what we do. Hell, we've been here over 10 years doing this. We've had Steve Ritchie and other industry representatives in hosted chats and they've done interviews and we've covered this numerous times with them. How could they not know?
Nanotech Entertainment has licensed roms and art and games from the Mondial Group (current rights holders for Gottlieb).

All any of the offended companies need to do is send us an email stating we need to remove something, and it'll be removed. That's all there is to it. They know we're here - and you can feel free to call them yourself if it bothers you.
BTW - Noah also interviewed Gary Stern on the phone and told him all about this place - a long time ago.

You make it sound like we are top tier criminals who are 'hiding by obscurity', but hey, we aren't. We're just stretching the rope out to see how far it can go before it gets shut down (if ever). And BTW - I'd love to see a company like Playmatic, Taito Brazil, Zaccaria, Wico, Atari, or some other deceased entity come by sometime. Most likely that will never happen as those businesses are gone - so I think I can safely and legally assume that their work will be entering the public domain to be used any way anyone desires with no legal repurcussions. It's not all illegal the way I see it.

As you say, have yourself a nice freakin' day.

Edited by destruk, 10 March 2012 - 05:56 PM.

[JAM0]

You go way too far Rob. I take issue with your comment #7.

Noah has talked with Rick at Planetary Pinball and he said he does not care if we use their roms, as long as we don't host the LED hacked roms.
When the Williams and Bally rights were licensed to Wayne in Australia, Wayne himself posted on the Future Pinball Forum exclaiming how excited and happy he was that Future Pinball was recreating Williams and Bally games.
Wayne did send me a C&D about Star Wars Episode 1/Pinball 2000 - and look, you don't see it here do you? duh. He could have just as easily sent us a letter about the other roms, but he likes those being used.
I myself contacted Williams numerous times trying to track down roms, and they sent us some.
Williams and Bally signed an agreement for 15 of their game roms to be used on Ultrapin - a commercial endeavor that cost >$375,000 - which they would not have been able to do if it wasn't for visual pinball and pinmame
The PinMAME dev team has sent bug fixes to Stern for their whitestar 2 system and they even included Steve Ellenoff and Gerrit Volkenborn "thanks messages" in the Nascar and/or Grand Prix romsets for it
Steve has talked with Gary Stern in person
Steve has worked on other pinball software programs for Farsight Studios, and I helped a little with the sound support for those, and Farsight has had direct current contact with Williams/Bally
They are fully aware of this site, and what we do. Hell, we've been here over 10 years doing this. We've had Steve Ritchie and other industry representatives in hosted chats and they've done interviews and we've covered this numerous times with them. How could they not know?
Nanotech Entertainment has licensed roms and art and games from the Mondial Group (current rights holders for Gottlieb).

All any of the offended companies need to do is send us an email stating we need to remove something, and it'll be removed. That's all there is to it. They know we're here - and you can feel free to call them yourself if it bothers you.
BTW - Noah also interviewed Gary Stern on the phone and told him all about this place - a long time ago.

You make it sound like we are top tier criminals who are 'hiding by obscurity', but hey, we aren't. We're just stretching the rope out to see how far it can go before it gets shut down (if ever). And BTW - I'd love to see a company like Playmatic, Taito Brazil, Zaccaria, Wico, Atari, or some other deceased entity come by sometime. Most likely that will never happen as those businesses are gone - so I think I can safely and legally assume that their work will be entering the public domain to be used any way anyone desires with no legal repurcussions. It's not all illegal the way I see it.

As you say, have yourself a nice freakin' day.

Thanks for debunking that alarmist post, Destruk.

To think that the companies don't know of our existence is mind-boggling. What, they don't have an internet connection?

[The Loafer]

You guys missed something pretty obvious at the top which I bolded on purpose. It's his view point we are talking about, he has his core beliefs.

I think I've quoted Steve's unofficial agreement with Gary on this and other forums before. My entire point was as you've said, this has been discussed before. For crying out loud Brian, you know I don't feel we are criminals. Jesus. Gary stern was interviewed on this site as I recall.

I perhaps didn't word it properly, and I committed the evil internet sin of not including sarcasm smileys but did no one understand the point I was making?

And Jam... you really are starting to piss me off. Alarmist my ass, the guy wants answers. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE ANSWERS ARE, but I provided some which I'd hope would be enough to please him so this will go away. From his perspective, its what he wants to here, that much is obvious for anyone who takes the time to read his flame bait question. He already knows this crap.