67 replies to this topic

[rob046]

I did what Rosve said, but then also set flipper strength to max. I also found the flipper gap to be too small, I bumped each flipper toward the lanes a couple notches, as far as they could go without touching the lane. I had fun playing this & it sure does look great, toys & things look great. Still many of the usual FP issues which is a bummer, but the table still played better than I expected after these couple tweaks. Well enough to be enjoyable. However I just modded JP's VP9 MM to my liking & got it playing even better than I thought I could, & gameplay is damn near perfect in my book. So I'll probably mostly be playing that version & the Farsight version on the console, which apparently will soon be coming out for Pinball Arcade. But this is such a great table that its nice to have good versions on every program & platform! Too many is never enough with this game!

Times like this I'm really having my fingers crossed that this unity project can actually happen.
Regardless, I really enjoy & appreciate all the work that went into this FP version. Very impressive.

Rob, if you don't mind posting your changes to JP's MM to the "Better Physics Settings" thread, that would be great! I love the modded tables you came out with recently!

Also I don't know if you guys are aware of a "tweak" for FP. To understand what I am talking about download this great table http://www.pinsimdb....r_ultra_edition. I think this table and its contents represents the best FP is capable of in terms of physics so far. Kudos to Slamt1lt for raising the bar higher!

Very interesting!
Considering what was done here, I was expecting some pretty decent improvements. Maybe it is a little better in some ways, though I'd like to know what exactly was done, because nothing really stands out to me. Maybe slings aren't quite as wild? But then I still had a couple funky bounces off of them.
I don't think the table plays well at all when compared to the real thing or VP or even the Williams Classics version. Even by FP standards it just seems like more of the same issues. I couldn't hit that center shot because I can't get enough juice on the ball to do so, yet on some other shots the ball goes way too fast. This is typical FP behavior though.

But hey, if there is even a 1% improvement, its better than nothing. Its tougher for older tables to play well because for flippers to work well in FP they need to be pretty much maxed out with strength, to get the needed speed for things like center shots. Which is fine, but to compensate for all that flipper strength you need to bump the slope up to like 10+ in order to tame the shot speed a bit. & that isn't realistic, especially for older tables.

The 1 simple tweak that could make all the difference in FP would be the ability to set flipper speed & strength separately (like in VP). Or simply make the flipper strength setting actually control flipper strength, & do away with the various flipper speeds. We don't need that setting. Even on the oldest tables, a flipper is a solenoid firing, & they all fire at about the same speed. Older tables in RL don't have slower flippers, just weaker perhaps.

Anyhow, I decided to try MM using the new...
Before I could get too far, my ball got stuck in the ramp after being catapulted.
So again, just not impressed, even if I'm only judging firepower. Looks great, but everything from the plunge to the flippers to the slings all seem off. I'm definitely not doubting that its better than the non mod, but whatever was done just isn't enough to get me excited.
I'd still really like to see some release notes on what all is improved or tweaked in the new.

As for my MM mod, it is for personal use & I have no permission to share it, & I'm not sure what JP's policy on mods is, but maybe I'll shoot him a PM & see what he thinks. On the current version, I can't even hit multiple loop shots because his flipper strength setting is too weak. Yet the flippers overall are too strong when coming off an inlane or a cradle due to the high speed setting, but due to the low strength, on the fly shots just don't go far. So I made big changes with all of that. But I did quite a bit more than just flipper settings that I could post. I changed elasticity & hit thresholds on many objects & rubbers, even changed some code to modify the plunge. I corrected a thing or two visually as well. Gravity changed a bit, I may have altered slope as well, I forget.
Normally I only apply my preferred flipper settings to a new release, but since I love MM so much I gave it some extra attention.

So yeah I'd like to maybe release it as a mod, & if I can then there might be a couple more little things I'll do.
I just get uncomfortable sometimes trying to release a mod if there isn't a big change on the screenshot. I have so many mods that I've done for personal use that improve on the current available versions of tables, but since some may not have notable visual changes I end up not trying to release them. I'm thinking that if I tried to release everything I've modded, authors might start to get offended & think that I'm thinking their work just isn't good enough. That couldn't be further from the truth though. I only spend time modding tables that I both enjoy & think are well done. I won't polish a turd!

So to me its about taking a great table that is well built & looks good, with the thought that if it also had the most optimized detailed physics then that is just putting icing on the cake, a very tasty cherry on top! I love nothing more than playing a table that really maxes out everything VP can do.
Then I'll also mod some older tables that simple haven't properly been VP9'd yet. I think everybody is onboard with that idea. Getting good VP9 physics on all the old tables that could use them.

So we'll see about MM. Its just one of those deals where I like to be 99% sure that my changes not only improve the table in my own opinion, but in everybody else's as well. I'd generally like 90% of ppl to agree that it is better. It would be nice if there was kinda an unrestricted test area where people can share mods & things on a limited bases to some testers, to make sure it is good enough for release & to get opinions. Cuz with an unauthorized mod, you aren't allowed to post it even for testing, yet testing is what would be most helpful. So as things are, technically I guess if you mod, you can only go by your own opinion, which kinda sucks. I think my own opinion is pretty good though. I've been messing with VP for many years now, & now have lots of real pinball experience.

Plus I'm into both old & newer pins, so I'm well aware of how all the different era's play. I even easily notice the differences in play between a 1980 Bally & a 1980 Williams! They play more differently than most would think. On top of all that it doesn't hurt that I get to some shows & get to spend up to a few days a year at the PAPA warehouse, where they not only have hundreds of pins, but unlike at "shows" where pins are quickly setup by owners & aren't properly sloped & leveled, all the PAPA games are finely tuned & well maintained which is great for getting a feel of how all these classics are meant to play.

Edited by rob046, 13 February 2012 - 01:33 AM.

[JonBaker]

I think if you get used to playing with VP for many years it's extremely hard to make the transition to FP. The 2 do play very differently. I personally think FP has the edge over VP in every way but that's because I mainly play FP and I've got accustomed to it's physics, it's feel if you like. VP just doesn't feel right to me. The ball in FP behaves more realistic - it jumps, it spins, it never makes the same shot twice in exactly the same way. In short, the ball is untamed and wild. Not at all like that with VP which makes VP tables completely bland to me.

Future Pinball is going from strength to strength and it's constantly gaining popularity and attracting some incredible talent. And judging by recent activity on this site (or the lack there of) VP is knocking on the door of the pinball retirement home. It had it's time but the new generation is just making it look embarrassingly old.

Medieval Madness is best played for real of course but the next best alternative is without question the Future Pinball version.

(edit: trying to fit in and be nice, I've edited this little speech so I don't offend the faint and weary amongst you)

Edited by JonBaker, 13 February 2012 - 04:22 AM.

[JAM0]

I did what Rosve said, but then also set flipper strength to max. I also found the flipper gap to be too small, I bumped each flipper toward the lanes a couple notches, as far as they could go without touching the lane. I had fun playing this & it sure does look great, toys & things look great. Still many of the usual FP issues which is a bummer, but the table still played better than I expected after these couple tweaks. Well enough to be enjoyable. However I just modded JP's VP9 MM to my liking & got it playing even better than I thought I could, & gameplay is damn near perfect in my book. So I'll probably mostly be playing that version & the Farsight version on the console, which apparently will soon be coming out for Pinball Arcade. But this is such a great table that its nice to have good versions on every program & platform! Too many is never enough with this game!

Times like this I'm really having my fingers crossed that this unity project can actually happen.
Regardless, I really enjoy & appreciate all the work that went into this FP version. Very impressive.

Rob, if you don't mind posting your changes to JP's MM to the "Better Physics Settings" thread, that would be great! I love the modded tables you came out with recently!

Also I don't know if you guys are aware of a "tweak" for FP. To understand what I am talking about download this great table http://www.pinsimdb....r_ultra_edition. I think this table and its contents represents the best FP is capable of in terms of physics so far. Kudos to Slamt1lt for raising the bar higher!

Very interesting!
Considering what was done here, I was expecting some pretty decent improvements. Maybe it is a little better in some ways, though I'd like to know what exactly was done, because nothing really stands out to me. Maybe slings aren't quite as wild? But then I still had a couple funky bounces off of them.
I don't think the table plays well at all when compared to the real thing or VP or even the Williams Classics version. Even by FP standards it just seems like more of the same issues. I couldn't hit that center shot because I can't get enough juice on the ball to do so, yet on some other shots the ball goes way too fast. This is typical FP behavior though.

But hey, if there is even a 1% improvement, its better than nothing. Its tougher for older tables to play well because for flippers to work well in FP they need to be pretty much maxed out with strength, to get the needed speed for things like center shots. Which is fine, but to compensate for all that flipper strength you need to bump the slope up to like 10+ in order to tame the shot speed a bit. & that isn't realistic, especially for older tables.

The 1 simple tweak that could make all the difference in FP would be the ability to set flipper speed & strength separately (like in VP). Or simply make the flipper strength setting actually control flipper strength, & do away with the various flipper speeds. We don't need that setting. Even on the oldest tables, a flipper is a solenoid firing, & they all fire at about the same speed. Older tables in RL don't have slower flippers, just weaker perhaps.

Anyhow, I decided to try MM using the new...
Before I could get too far, my ball got stuck in the ramp after being catapulted.
So again, just not impressed, even if I'm only judging firepower. Looks great, but everything from the plunge to the flippers to the slings all seem off. I'm definitely not doubting that its better than the non mod, but whatever was done just isn't enough to get me excited.
I'd still really like to see some release notes on what all is improved or tweaked in the new.

As for my MM mod, it is for personal use & I have no permission to share it, & I'm not sure what JP's policy on mods is, but maybe I'll shoot him a PM & see what he thinks. On the current version, I can't even hit multiple loop shots because his flipper strength setting is too weak. Yet the flippers overall are too strong when coming off an inlane or a cradle due to the high speed setting, but due to the low strength, on the fly shots just don't go far. So I made big changes with all of that. But I did quite a bit more than just flipper settings that I could post. I changed elasticity & hit thresholds on many objects & rubbers, even changed some code to modify the plunge. I corrected a thing or two visually as well. Gravity changed a bit, I may have altered slope as well, I forget.
Normally I only apply my preferred flipper settings to a new release, but since I love MM so much I gave it some extra attention.

So yeah I'd like to maybe release it as a mod, & if I can then there might be a couple more little things I'll do.
I just get uncomfortable sometimes trying to release a mod if there isn't a big change on the screenshot. I have so many mods that I've done for personal use that improve on the current available versions of tables, but since some may not have notable visual changes I end up not trying to release them. I'm thinking that if I tried to release everything I've modded, authors might start to get offended & think that I'm thinking their work just isn't good enough. That couldn't be further from the truth though. I only spend time modding tables that I both enjoy & think are well done. I won't polish a turd!

So to me its about taking a great table that is well built & looks good, with the thought that if it also had the most optimized detailed physics then that is just putting icing on the cake, a very tasty cherry on top! I love nothing more than playing a table that really maxes out everything VP can do.
Then I'll also mod some older tables that simple haven't properly been VP9'd yet. I think everybody is onboard with that idea. Getting good VP9 physics on all the old tables that could use them.

So we'll see about MM. Its just one of those deals where I like to be 99% sure that my changes not only improve the table in my own opinion, but in everybody else's as well. I'd generally like 90% of ppl to agree that it is better. It would be nice if there was kinda an unrestricted test area where people can share mods & things on a limited bases to some testers, to make sure it is good enough for release & to get opinions. Cuz with an unauthorized mod, you aren't allowed to post it even for testing, yet testing is what would be most helpful. So as things are, technically I guess if you mod, you can only go by your own opinion, which kinda sucks. I think my own opinion is pretty good though. I've been messing with VP for many years now, & now have lots of real pinball experience.

Plus I'm into both old & newer pins, so I'm well aware of how all the different era's play. I even easily notice the differences in play between a 1980 Bally & a 1980 Williams! They play more differently than most would think. On top of all that it doesn't hurt that I get to some shows & get to spend up to a few days a year at the PAPA warehouse, where they not only have hundreds of pins, but unlike at "shows" where pins are quickly setup by owners & aren't properly sloped & leveled, all the PAPA games are finely tuned & well maintained which is great for getting a feel of how all these classics are meant to play.

Yeah, Rob there is a known issue with MM (FP) -- the catapult, using the new..... There appears to be about 4 or 5 tables (out of the totality of FP tables) that have a problem with it, MM being one of them.

Regarding your mods, judging from your recent releases, the improvements are great. Interestingly, I just watched a documentary last last night on how art advances, and it stated that if art is chosen by the criteria of "the more people who like it, the better it is", you end up with shit art or music. Thats why the comparison to real pins is important. I have found that some tables that I was less thrilled with when I first played them (because they seemed too hard) have become among my favorites now. I love the work that Noah and UR are doing with their tables -- the choices they made with physics, etc. That is not to say I don't also love other tables that are very different. My point is if you think your mod is great, that is the most important thing. If the masses disagree initially, maybe they will come around to it eventually, if not, screw 'em.

Edited by JAM0, 13 February 2012 - 10:02 AM.

[destruk]

(edit: trying to fit in and be nice, I've edited this little speech so I don't offend the faint and weary amongst you)

GOOD FOR YOU!!!

[pbfan]

Great pinball fun I ever had!

Unfortunately whenever I get a high score, the ball stucks somewhere (at the catapult, under the table glass etc.), so I couldn't save my score.

Is there a way to get the next ball without exiting the running game?

[JAM0]

Great pinball fun I ever had!

Unfortunately whenever I get a high score, the ball stucks somewhere (at the catapult, under the table glass etc.), so I couldn't save my score.

Is there a way to get the next ball without exiting the running game?

Not that I know of

[pbfan]

Great pinball fun I ever had!

Unfortunately whenever I get a high score, the ball stucks somewhere (at the catapult, under the table glass etc.), so I couldn't save my score.

Is there a way to get the next ball without exiting the running game?

Not that I know of

What a pity! Thanks anyway.

(my 200,000,000 points at the first ball are lost.)

Edited by pbfan, 16 February 2012 - 07:30 AM.

[WWE]

Nach meinen wissen war der Medieval Madness Flipper bei denn Spielhallen damals sehr beliebt, aber auch the addams family war und ist immer noch beliebt.

 

Sven