96 replies to this topic

[Dazz]

In my research,

Is there a doctor in the room? Yeh over there, a doctor of piracy research. (Embarressing)

Befor that post it was a discussion without names. Your post introduced name calling and false accusations, thinly disguised as "Research"
I demand an apology.

I do digital surveillance and digital forensics on a daily basis for online fraud investigation for several major online Travel sites. I cross reference real names, user names, posts, IP addresses, MAC addresses, server names as part of my daily job.

I also actively investigate people selling or distributing HyperSpin/HyperPin without authorization. I have been able to identify several members from the HyperSpin/HyperPin site for selling or re-hosting. When threads on our site like this come up; we have found that a user will jump in the thread and start defending the seller. Many times have we determined that the person that jumped in to defend the seller is indeed the seller. I have banned about 10 different accounts for re-hosting or selling HyperSpin. If I had access to this sites database and logs; I'd definitely put in the time to research you based on comments in this thread defending sellers... Unfortunately, I do not.

No one in their right mind that enjoys what HyperSpin/HyperPin/VP/VPMame/MAME and other emulators have to offer would ever defend the selling of these works. By defending and supporting the sellers you put each and everyone of these projects in jeopardy of quitting further development. Things like this discourage the developers from wanting to continue. For instance, look at JP Salas... he found a company taking his tables, modding them with their logos and selling the tables. JP has stated that he now has no desire to bring us any new tables and has stopped building new tables.

What gives people the idea to think that they have the rights to profit off of something that they personally have NO involvement in at all? What justifies a persons thought to think that they can sell DVD's of ROM's, Tables or software? How can you, in good conscious, defend this?

I'm sorry, but I have my doubts...

[somberkiss]

I don't kno about all that legal crap but what I do kno is that all the guys that make tables JP, PD, uncle willy, and all these dudes really kick ass and hope that stupid little things and retarded people like that won't stop these people from loving pinball, i think that is quite silly, these guys are pinball fanatics like all of us including myself, so I don't see this deterring any of those insane guys from making tables. They kno or at least I hope they kno that we very much appreciate the major time and effort that goes into making these things, and o if they don't then I will say it now. I would like to thank all the people involved in making this VP a public domain and freeware community. Not leaving anyone out so I won't mention anymore names, but we appreciate all of you, or at least I do, and I would like to think I am speaking on behalf of the entire community in this post anyway, so thank you guys and keep the silver ball rolling we love you.......

[Zablon]

Understood Noah, I was simply curious because anyone who has actually set up a cabinet or used VP/HS to any extent knows how much work it is filled with gotchas and loopholes. Any value in the actual software being included could be said to be time for collection, configuration and testing. It's not right, but we all know how much time it takes. I for one would not want to base a business model off of this simply because of the future support issues involved. It's hard enough keeping 1 cabinet up and running, up to date, adding tables, etc etc.

[ynneBBenny]

In my research,

Is there a doctor in the room? Yeh over there, a doctor of piracy research. (Embarressing)

Befor that post it was a discussion without names. Your post introduced name calling and false accusations, thinly disguised as "Research"
I demand an apology.

I do digital surveillance and digital forensics on a daily basis for online fraud investigation for several major online Travel sites. I cross reference real names, user names, posts, IP addresses, MAC addresses, server names as part of my daily job.

Well it looks like your "digital surveillance" is horribly wrong and flawed on this occasion. If you ask me, it's more a case of digital BS, digital unfounded assumptions, or worse still, digital strife making.
You still owe me an apology, sunshine.

Not only this but you are suggesting I said that it is OK to profit from selling other peoples ROMS and work. Please show me where I have directly said this.
My original post in this thread asks the simple question about what is the difference between selling a cabinet with the software as opposed to selling a cabinet where the software is installed afterwards. Unfortunately due to selective reading it has been completely turned into something that it simply never was. Either by trying to cause a stir, or stupidity. (Unless there is some other reason I cant think of)

Edited by WWW, 06 July 2011 - 03:06 AM.

[Rawd]

I'm still lost as to your point then WWW. I'm not interested in arguing with you, I am just trying to understand what you are trying to say?


Software = HP,VP,ROMS, and tables.

Do you think it is ok to sell cabinets with HP,VP,ROMS, and tables? Yes or no question.

[faralos]

cut and dried if it's already in there is a good chance that the tables are in there without the table builders permission. If one comes here or elsewhere after buying a cab then not only are the tables free BUT they can pick and choose which ones they want too, and this way since they must register the sysops here can keep tabs on the table downloads, and selling an empty cab is okay but when one fills it with pins and are sold without the table builders permission then lines are crossed and that is the bad thing

[ynneBBenny]

You've completely lost me..

To be clear: Do you see a problem with selling cabinets with Hyperpin, Pinmame, VP, Roms and tables installed? That is what we are discussing. No I dont see the difference between a cab been sold with the software installed, or a cabinet without the software installed. So long as the cabinet is the same price either way. I do see a problem in selling the software for personal profit. However I dont see a problem in someone going to the effort to download and collect the games onto a DVD and then distributing the collection for a small fee to cover the cost of burning / bandwidth/ time etc. (Not that I have ever done, or could be bothered doing myself, DAZ)

If you don't see a problem with it, then I will just shake my head and agree to disagree. (Start shaking your head, we dissagree)

I don't own any roms. I play them illegally, but I have never tried to sell one. (I dont understand why one eveil is less or more acceptable than the other evil.) By whose standards should we live ? Yours?

I have had offers for hundreds of dollars to ghost my cabinet HD and refused. So???

Faralos, please allow me to be the whipping boy for a while. You may have a day off.

Edited by WWW, 06 July 2011 - 03:44 AM.

[Rawd]

You've completely lost me..

To be clear: Do you see a problem with selling cabinets with Hyperpin, Pinmame, VP, Roms and tables installed? That is what we are discussing. No I dont see the difference between a cab been sold with the software installed, or a cabinet without the software installed. So long as the cabinet is the same price either way. I do see a problem in selling the software for personal profit. However I dont see a problem in someone going to the effort to download and collect the games onto a DVD and then distributing the collection for a small fee to cover the cost of burning / bandwidth/ time etc. (Not that I have ever done, or could be bothered doing myself, DAZ)

Ok, I understand. In your eyes it is ok to do this, in my view it is not. This would be like selling a mame cabinet with all of the software installed, and I think that is wrong as well.

If you don't see a problem with it, then I will just shake my head and agree to disagree. (Start shaking your head, we dissagree)

My wife and I disagree all the time, but we still love each other.

I don't own any roms. I play them illegally, but I have never tried to sell one. (I dont understand why one eveil is less or more acceptable than the other evil.) By whose standards should we live ? Yours?

I guess you're right. Why is it ok for me to use a rom I don't own, but not ok to sell it? I really don't know! It is just the way I personally feel. It is really none of my business to impose my personal views on others. I apologize.

I have had offers for hundreds of dollars to ghost my cabinet HD and refused. So???

I just wanted to throw that out there, because I guess I feel good about my decision not to make money off of my HD. Even though I put over 1000 hours of work into the software setup, I still wouldn't sell it because I don't feel that it belongs to me to sell. I guess we all have our own moral lines.

Faralos, please allow me to be the whipping boy for a while. You may have a day off.

Edited by Rawd, 06 July 2011 - 03:59 AM.

[Noah Fentz]

WWW,

Selling cabs with the software installed without licensing the software is absolute bullshit. I pay for the licensing in every cab that goes out, and, let's say they are the same price, then they are making a marginally higher profit equal to that of the cost of the software. In other words, they are selling the software.

Get it now?

As far as ROMs ...

The companies/licensees that preside over the ROMs are aware of what we do and have given permission to do what we do. Therefore, it is not illegal.

Now, if you were to flash them onto ROM chips and sell them, THEN there would be a legal issue issue.

If you were to write the images to a DVD and sell them, THEN there would be a legal issue.

If you were to build a cab, and install them, THEN there would be a legal issue.

It's not really that difficult of a concept, is it?

[ynneBBenny]

Thanks Rawd for been so reasonable and trying to understand at least.
Some time ago, I figured you were like this.

Hmmm, loving like your wife.......lets agree to disagree on this one

You're OK

Noah, I will happily discuss and test ideas. Until this forum becomes the thought police, I will continue to ask questions, examine philosophies etc.


It's not really that difficult of a concept, is it?

[Noah Fentz]

When you're wrong, you're wrong, dude.

And you, sir, are wrong.

Just because you don't see the problem, doesn't mean it's not there.

[ynneBBenny]

When you're wrong, you're wrong, dude.

And you, sir, are wrong.

Just because you don't see the problem, doesn't mean it's not there.

My original question still unasnwered I notice, is whats the difference between two identical cabs the same price, one with the software installed and one with the same software about to be installed by the new cab owner.

Just because you set up some PHP forum doesnt automatically make you judge and jury about ethics, or those who are asking questions and challening them.

When you're wrong, you're wrong, dude.

[Noah Fentz]

Maybe you should start reading posts ...

Selling cabs with the software installed without licensing the software is absolute bullshit. I pay for the licensing in every cab that goes out, and, let's say they are the same price, then they are making a marginally higher profit equal to that of the cost of the software. In other words, they are selling the software.

Get it now?

And I've done a whole hell of a lot more than set up a forum. (What an asinine statement!)

I've had meetings, phone conferences, and lengthy discussions with IP holders, Licensing Directors, etc.

Get a clue. I'm talking from knowledge, not my ass.

[ynneBBenny]

The answer to my question?


Get a clue. I'm asking questions as to why.

Edited by WWW, 06 July 2011 - 04:31 AM.

[Noah Fentz]

Are you blind?

Let me spell it out for you.

Y-O-U C-A-N-'-T S-E-L-L C-O-P-Y-R-I-G-H-T-E-D S-O-F-T-W-A-R-E

[ynneBBenny]

I challenge you to never tell MAME you own the software ever again.

Am I blind? Just as blind as you and everyone else lies each time they use MAME.
Self suitably Blind I guess.

Edited by WWW, 06 July 2011 - 04:36 AM.

[Noah Fentz]

Pardon me for saying so, but you're being a moron.

Please read this entire page, NO SKIMMING!

I've covered it all, and then some.

My GAWD!

[CaptBlackwood]

Bro,

You don't build a table, load it with FREE software and sell it. Stop trying to defend what you're doing and just sell the TABLE, with OUT any tables OR Software.

"How hard can it be?" - Jeremy Clarkson

[Noah Fentz]

Bro,

You don't build a table, load it with FREE software and sell it. Stop trying to defend what you're doing and just sell the TABLE, with OUT any tables OR Software.

"How hard can it be?" - Jeremy Clarkson

C'mon now.

You don't know if there's ANY truth at all to that statement, so it's an inappropriate one to make.




Geez, what happened to this place today? Was it abnormally hot everywhere and everyone is cranky, or what?

[Dazz]

Well it looks like your "digital surveillance" is horribly wrong and flawed on this occasion. If you ask me, it's more a case of digital BS, digital unfounded assumptions, or worse still, digital strife making.
You still owe me an apology, sunshine.

Ha, you beat us too it. !!! (Looks great too)
We are currently working on an alternative cabinet.
Ours will be a flat pack variety (Allen key assembly)
It will be a black cabinet, glass and coin door, and buttons, legs, rails and lock down only, ready for the customer to supply their own computer and monitors etc.
We are aiming for between 500 - $600 plus postage.
Unfortunately we are in Australia and are planning to mainly service there, unless people want to pay the high cost of shipping.
At our price we are using melamine coated MDF.
We are currently writing up the Gcodes for our CNC machine.

Hmm, interesting.

ynnebbenny, I'm sorry, but no apology is warranted at this time.

http://ynnebbenny.blogspot.com/

Edited by Dazz, 06 July 2011 - 06:38 AM.