63 replies to this topic

[Shooby Doo]

Something I read that I didn't notice here was that this table is a small test-run to see if there is a place for pinball in the home market. The participating Costcos each get 3 tables to try to sell. If these sell, Stern plans on more affordable home models with cheaper cabinets and a cheaper DMD.

For someone like me who doesn't have a lot of cash sitting around, this might make owning a table more realistic. I suppose it depends on final price VS quality. I don't know. Maybe they'd be shooting themselves in their other foot.

[lettuce]

I cant remeber the last time i saw a pinball machine without it being some convention or massive arcade, and this is why (i think) pinball industry is on its arse, out of sight out of mind, heck i bet auyone under the age of 18 might not have ever seen or played a pinball machine before. I know its probbaly different in other countries, and in the UK pinball was never as big as it was/is in places like the US and Australia, but even when i was a kid and went on holiday to the seaside there would still be loads of pinball machines in EVER arcade, now nothing and even less arcades!

Edited by lettuce, 30 May 2010 - 01:34 PM.

[Shockman]

I have nothing against Stern's Home games. They could make them with half the parts of an arcade machine, and sell them for twice as much as a arcade machine and I would not care, as that would be none of my business. It's just the fact that they would imply that these are the same as arcade machines that irks me.

[diskoboy]

I don't care about playfield toys. Make a game with a good theme, a deep rule set, and toys wont matter. Sure they may look nice, but that's really their only function, most of the times.

I wish Stern would go back to the late-80's Williams/Bally business model, and make good machine with the typical ramps, loops, locks, multiball, and whatnot... But the fancy and expensive toys on the playfield are getting ridiculous.

Go back to basics.

Edited by diskoboy, 30 May 2010 - 06:18 PM.

[The Trout]

I don't care about playfield toys. Make a game with a good theme, a deep rule set, and toys wont matter. Sure they may look nice, but that's really their only function, most of the times.

I wish Stern would go back to the late-80's Williams/Bally business model, and make good machine with the typical ramps, loops, locks, multiball, and whatnot... But the fancy and expensive toys on the playfield are getting ridiculous.

Go back to basics.

Isn't that exactly what they did with Big Buck Hunter and Iron Man? There's only one major toy on each - otherwise, they're both rather simple layouts with deep rule sets. Hell, Iron Man 2 only has TWO FLIPPERS! MADNESS! The "light" Dark Knight also follows this design philosophy, hacking off the mini-playfield for a cleaner table and simpler play style.

[rob046]

I don't understand 'on route' and I disagree that there is a big enough market for it to thrive.
I agree that they should do this crap with unique titles instead raping existing ones.

The rest sounds like circles. You say "But right now, there is a big enough market out there to keep pinball afloat, & it might even thrive as pinball no longer has to compete with video games they way it used to."
Then go on to say "I feel pinball trying to make a comeback right now, but I fear there is lack of fuel to make that comeback."

The market is the fuel.

I don't think Stern is trying for a come back. I think they are trying for a quick buck before they close their doors. I can't think of a single reason that they would think that this is a business model, either good, bad, or worth a try. It's not a business model. It's a scam that usually has a fly by night company running off in the afternoon.

"On route", that simply means a pin that makes the rounds in various bars, bowling alley's, pizza shops, arcade's (its "on tour"). As opposed to a "home use only" (HUO) pin. These are terms that us real pinball owners toss around quite a bit, cuz when buying a used pin, makes a huge difference whether or not the pin was "routed" or "HUO". Of course the HUO pin is more desirable. I have an HUO JD, made in '93, still looks like it just left the factory, ony paid $1200 flat for it too, not bad for a Bally Widebody DMD pin. I also have a couple pins that spent their live on the road, in smoke filled bars & god knows what kind of grimy hands touch it, I got great deals on them though & cleaned em up nice. Also, bad thing about routed pins is that they often are turned on all day every day, and get many more plays than HUO pins, generally.

Anyhow, to respond to your other comment, I was saying that any lack of fuel to drive a comeback is a result of Stern's business model & lack of creativity, risk taking, passion, whatever you wanna say....not the result of there simply not being an opening for a comeback. & I hate saying that cuz I am glad they are at least making pinballs, but at the same time I'm not a fan of half assing it, which I think Stern is guilty of.
& I agree with you, I also fear that Stern is looking to make a wad of cash then run out the door like bandits. So in a way, it might be better for pinball that they fail in this venture, & are forced to simply make the "normal" pins cheaper and/or better.
In this economy, you aren't gonna survive by half assing it. Even in the booming late 90's economy, Williams went under. Stern has to deal with bad economy & a tough pinball market to turn a profit on. So they have got to have keep their game TIIIIGHT!

Stern, more people are playing virtual versions of old Williams pins than real versions of your pins, what are you gonna do about it?
As I've said, there is no doubt, there are new concepts, ideas, & things Stern can try to invoke a little more excitement. & if they could get their new price tag down a tad to where their pins were about the same price, or only a tad more, than some of the like new 90's Bally/Williams cost.

Cuz I couldn't even tell you how many people take their 3k or 4k and put that cash toward nice 90's BLY/WMS pin(s), but its A LOT! Like it or not, Stern, you do still have to compete with a company that hasn't even existed for over a decade! I also think Stern could benefit from putting maybe 4 or 5 of their classic early SS pins and 6 or 7 of their better DMD pins, and make a video game out of them. PHOF Stern! Its just a great way to advertise your product by using the industry that put you out of business back in the 80's! I'd jump on something like that if I were Stern.
Video game, PC Sim, Emulation Pinball isn't going anywhere, so if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Take advantage of the new mediums out there.

OK I gotta stop blabbing about this, but I blab because I care! I dont want Stern to fail. Again, just frustrating seeing the pinball market (Stern) in such a state, when I know it can & should be doing better. So, Stern, FIX IT! Or give it to somebody who can!

[humid]

The situation reminds me of Gottlieb back in the late 80's when they were releasing 'simpler' tables to try to survive. It didn't get them anywhere.

I agree with rob046, that there is a simmering market for pinball that Stern doesn't actively pursue. They don't seem to have much of a marketing department or budget. Ducati motorbikes ( and other niche toys) sustain a program that keeps their potential customers aware. Stern seems to assume that operators should create the demand for their product, and not Stern itself.

As has been stated, there are enough previously owned tables for home use available. If Stern refuses to innovate with the licenses they keep buying, they sure the heck need to market them like 'Happy Meals'. They need to re-evaluate their goals beyond landing another license, and focus on why something like Zen pinball's system has caught an audience.

[smakx]

I am not thrilled with this cut down table idea, especially the after-market confusion it will create. On the other hand it shows that Stern is at least trying things to stay alive and continue making pinballs. I feel inclined to try to support them even if I don't like their later products. They are the last soldier in the field, and there is always the hope that they will produce something great again.

I wonder if they haven't considered an opposite approach to this. I'd like to see them hedge their bets on one table, get a good license that will do well in bars (the last refuge of pinball). Get some of the designers from Williams heyday involved, nix their cost rules and build one great table. If they could create the 'killer app' of pinball, one big selling hit could be enough to re-ignite interest in the game and infuse Stern with the resources to go back to making great tables. Or maybe I live in an idealized fantasy world?

[EalaDubhSidhe]

There's only so far you can go to cut costs if you're still employing the same domestic manufacturing and business model, to produce on the same core technology, mechanics and construction that pinball has been based on for at least the last couple of decades. Ultimately the only way to go forward as a viable and less expensive industry will be a radical redesign from the ground up, developing new patents and cheaper methods of replicating what current components are designed to do, and outsourcing much of the raw manufacture to places like China - even if the idea makes you throw your hands up in pure horror because you believe that pinball belonging in its birthplace of Chicago should be sacrosanct.

I wonder if they haven't considered an opposite approach to this. I'd like to see them hedge their bets on one table, get a good license that will do well in bars (the last refuge of pinball). Get some of the designers from Williams heyday involved, nix their cost rules and build one great table. If they could create the 'killer app' of pinball, one big selling hit could be enough to re-ignite interest in the game and infuse Stern with the resources to go back to making great tables. Or maybe I live in an idealized fantasy world?

GamePlan tried this with Loch Ness Monster. Sega did the same in the console field with the DreamCast. In both cases it didn't work because they ran out of resources before the investment had time to pay off.

[destruk]

Something I read that I didn't notice here was that this table is a small test-run to see if there is a place for pinball in the home market. The participating Costcos each get 3 tables to try to sell. If these sell, Stern plans on more affordable home models with cheaper cabinets and a cheaper DMD.

For someone like me who doesn't have a lot of cash sitting around, this might make owning a table more realistic. I suppose it depends on final price VS quality. I don't know. Maybe they'd be shooting themselves in their other foot.

Anyone wanting a table would most likely buy a decent EM for $600, or a decent second-hand WPC game for less than $1000. I doubt any first time pin buyers, that are in the market, would grab this 'light edition' over a full featured LOTR, at half the cost of this thing is already.

As much as I would love to see pinball make a comeback, it definately isn't going to happen with this crap they are putting out lately. I wouldn't be satisfied buying a game with a single playfield toy and rules you can wipe off a windshield with a squeegee. They lack depth, and they lack staying power past a week for repeat play. At least the full featured Batman would still keep me going back for more - I love the toy car on the drawbridge, I like the mini playfield, the changing Joker, the crane - it all comes together with fairly decent rules. Without the fun mechanical parts to come back to, it is quite boring.

By 'coming back' - I mean, with 3 or 4 playfield toys on the machine, rules that take a few months to experience everything, you know - a good solid game for my $4k - like Williams did with Medieval Madness, Roadshow, Scared Stiff, STTNG, the prime time greats. LOTR managed to do that with Ripleys, LOTR, Simpsons Party, Batman, to name a few, and now they're just supposedly cutting costs and turning out junk for approximately the same amount of money. If what they are making now turns out to be their future, then I doubt pinball will survive as I knew it.

I don't care about playfield toys. Make a game with a good theme, a deep rule set, and toys wont matter. Sure they may look nice, but that's really their only function, most of the times.

I wish Stern would go back to the late-80's Williams/Bally business model, and make good machine with the typical ramps, loops, locks, multiball, and whatnot... But the fancy and expensive toys on the playfield are getting ridiculous.

Go back to basics.

Now I'm not saying Stern couldn't get this done a little bit cheaper - but as far as 'back to basics' goes, I know for darn sure I would not pay $3695.00 for a remade King of Diamonds machine.
http://mpamusement.c...products_id=449

[Joe]

There's only so far you can go to cut costs if you're still employing the same domestic manufacturing and business model, to produce on the same core technology, mechanics and construction that pinball has been based on for at least the last couple of decades. Ultimately the only way to go forward as a viable and less expensive industry will be a radical redesign from the ground up, developing new patents and cheaper methods of replicating what current components are designed to do, and outsourcing much of the raw manufacture to places like China - even if the idea makes you throw your hands up in pure horror because you believe that pinball belonging in its birthplace of Chicago should be sacrosanct.

I wonder if they haven't considered an opposite approach to this. I'd like to see them hedge their bets on one table, get a good license that will do well in bars (the last refuge of pinball). Get some of the designers from Williams heyday involved, nix their cost rules and build one great table. If they could create the 'killer app' of pinball, one big selling hit could be enough to re-ignite interest in the game and infuse Stern with the resources to go back to making great tables. Or maybe I live in an idealized fantasy world?

GamePlan tried this with Loch Ness Monster. Sega did the same in the console field with the DreamCast. In both cases it didn't work because they ran out of resources before the investment had time to pay off.

but overseas shipping can cost alot and PINBALL IS MADE IN THE USA. Even Mexico is bad for the games to be made there.

[JavaJack]

Would there be a market for pinball in kit form? They don't really require much more than a screwdriver to assemble, do they?

Does anyone have info on the manufacturing costs of those Spanish _New Canasta_ machines? Have they substantially lowered the build cost using the plexi & PCBs?

[Wizards_Hat]

Would there be a market for pinball in kit form? They don't really require much more than a screwdriver to assemble, do they?

Huh?!?!
I take it you've never stripped a machine down.

I assume you mean having a fully populated playfield with a flat-pack cabinet?
Populating the playfield is probably 95% of the work, so you wouldn't really be saving anything there.
Personally I wouldn't trust flat-pack to be able to be put together strongly enough to withstand the forces of a pinball in use.

Also, it would require a completely new manufacturing process - even a "simple" job like putting the backbox on isn't that simple.
I regularly take the backbox off my machines (it's the only way I can get them in my car), and I know that even doing that fills some people with dread...there are about 50 connectors to reconnect in the right places.

Now if Pinball2000 had survived.....that was supposed to be a modular concept of design, whereby operators (& collectors) could change just the playfield of the machine in very short time and with virtually no tools or skill required.

Regards,
Dan.

[KloggMonkey]

Now if Pinball2000 had survived....

DAMN Jar Jar Binks

[Joe]

Would there be a market for pinball in kit form? They don't really require much more than a screwdriver to assemble, do they?

Huh?!?!
I take it you've never stripped a machine down.

I assume you mean having a fully populated playfield with a flat-pack cabinet?
Populating the playfield is probably 95% of the work, so you wouldn't really be saving anything there.
Personally I wouldn't trust flat-pack to be able to be put together strongly enough to withstand the forces of a pinball in use.

Also, it would require a completely new manufacturing process - even a "simple" job like putting the backbox on isn't that simple.
I regularly take the backbox off my machines (it's the only way I can get them in my car), and I know that even doing that fills some people with dread...there are about 50 connectors to reconnect in the right places.

Now if Pinball2000 had survived.....that was supposed to be a modular concept of design, whereby operators (& collectors) could change just the playfield of the machine in very short time and with virtually no tools or skill required.

Regards,
Dan.

some cost cut backs even made that part harder.

[JavaJack]

I assume you mean having a fully populated playfield with a flat-pack cabinet?

No, I envisioned the complete opposite. Unpopulated playfield & all parts stowed in the hollow body.

[Shockman]

Sound like fun.

And Stern would probably take $150 off the retail too.

[Practicedummy]

I assume you mean having a fully populated playfield with a flat-pack cabinet?

No, I envisioned the complete opposite. Unpopulated playfield & all parts stowed in the hollow body.

And having all that fun routing a half mile of wire in the comfort of your own home! rofl

[neoblood]

Certainly the wording on the point-of-sale documentation - phrases such as "authentic arcade unit" and "official Dark Knight game" - could lead purchasers to believe this is the same machine found in arcades.

To put it nicely.

To lie like this is to scam, and nothing less.

Perhaps it would be better if Pinball just died a good death.

This.

Let crappy pinball die. Let the reign of good homebrew virtual pinball begin. I payed 15 bux a piece to get into a pinball show and half the machines didnt work properly. Seriously? This is what it's degenerating into? I say if you don't or can't do it right, don't even bother.

[JavaJack]

And having all that fun routing a half mile of wire in the comfort of your own home! rofl

Heh. I wonder if a lot could be simplified using good old IDE/SCSI flat ribbon cables. They're pretty cheap and easy to connect.