111 replies to this topic

[Noah Fentz]

 

 

Respect starts at the beginning. So many of JP's tables have been used, then not shared here, then locked down as 'permission to MOD'. The respect has to start there, or it's simply not warranted further down the line.

 

I have a super unpopular to some answer for this.... JP coming out and saying "if you mod please make sure you share at VPF"   boy would that throw a wrench in the works...LOL
I've seen people request dont share on VPB,VPF, VPU.... but never if you do share, share it at X also...LOL

 

 

He has. Numerous times. In the permission to MOD topic, even.

 

It shouldn't need saying that, if you use resources from a hobby site, it's proper to give back. We're a community, not a resource.

[hauntfreaks]

 

 

 

He has. Numerous times. In the permission to MOD topic, even.

 

well then fuck... your 100% right that would be disrespectful....  next idea would be to identify clones, JP adding little undetectable clues into the code... super simple, wouldnt really be going out of his way to do so (copy and paste)... and the best part you can call MFers out by name, and know for a fact they have cloned his table... these dudes dont like being called out, look at bigus...LOL   just an idea.... im a problem solver  <wink wink> 

[Noah Fentz]

 

 

 

 

He has. Numerous times. In the permission to MOD topic, even.

 

well then fuck... your 100% right that would be disrespectful....  next idea would be to identify clones, JP adding little undetectable clues into the code... super simple, wouldnt really be going out of his way to do so (copy and paste)... and the best part you can call MFers out by name, and know for a fact they have cloned his table... these dudes dont like being called out, look at bigus...LOL   just an idea.... im a problem solver  <wink wink> 

 

 

See what happens when you go away and return in the middle of the shitstorm? LMAO

 

This is what I've been saying all along. I don't care if it's JP's, destruk, my own, yours, or Bigus' first table he builds himself, if it's listed FREE TO MOD, subsequent tables STAY free to MOD. If an author asks that subsequent tables, based on their work, be uploaded here, they should be uploaded here. While I'm at it, if the original author demands it not be uploaded here, it's pure nonsense. Anyone who feels this way is welcome to let me know why that is. I suspect it's purely political, also based on pure nonsense.

 

I'm not on some selfish tirade here. We're fed up with what's been going on, have been discussing it privately, and the new MOD rules are currently being drafted (it's a lot, from how to upload a table and how to become a VIP ... hint: you don't BUY a VIP membership, like that other place. WOW. Nice way to obfuscate the meaning of being a VIP, btw. :/ ).

 

I'm only allowing this discussion in a support topic, because I feel it's that important we have this discussion. I'll split it off at some point soon.

[hauntfreaks]

can someone point me to a thread where people are disapproving of there names being in this banner on the VP theft site?
 

 Capture.JPG   32.56KB   11 downloads

 

Edited by hauntfreaks, 11 June 2021 - 04:01 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

can someone point me to a thread where people are disapproving of there names being in this banner on the VP theft site?
 

 

https://www.vpforums...showtopic=46736

[hauntfreaks]

LOL... only Terry?... shit Terry is a VP whore, he turns tricks anywhere and everywhere.... LOL       sad no JP or bigus adding there disapproval... tisk tisk tisk  

[Noah Fentz]

LOL... only Terry?... shit Terry is a VP whore, he turns tricks anywhere and everywhere.... LOL       sad no JP or bigus adding there disapproval... tisk tisk tisk  

There may be another post? I just remember TerryRed starting one, so I searched his topics.

[remdwaas1986]

Definitely want to know how to become a VIP. But i'll just keep sharing anyways!

[Noah Fentz]

Definitely want to know how to become a VIP. But i'll just keep sharing anyways!

For the most part, it's just being a regular and respectful contributor. Easy peasy.

I pretty much suspended the program when it came to light there were some backroom politics being played.

It'll be back very soon.

[hauntfreaks]

I must have been grandfathered in...LOL

[grunger106]

Is is me or has this gotten increasingly toxic over the years.

It sucks, lets face it these days Pinball is a niche hobby, virtual pinball is an niche within a niche, and virtual pinball cabinets are a niche within a niche within a niche.
There really can't be that many people involved in this hobby, and those that are and especially those that can be bothered to register on a forum all have something in common!
I've never really understood the animosity between the sites over the years, but I'm a newbie - I've only been in the hobby for 10 years

 

I totally understand the frustration with the torrent creators and cabinet builders, I really do - it sucks, however realistically you can't stop them......
Once you upload a file to the internet on a site with no Paywall its essentially a free-for-all, even with a paywall all it takes is one person.
Those that get crappy over priced VPins from a dodgy eBay seller are likely not aware that they're doing anything wrong and they'll have a poor experience of the table anyway so they've kind of lost out.
The guys selling the cabs are likely the ones the IP holders would come after in terms of copyright as they're selling a protected IP for actual money.
Same with the torrent people, the people that go that route don't get the support, don't get the latest versions, don't get clean versions run all the risks associated with torrenting stuff, but they were never going to contribute to anything anyway, so screw em.

If you can get the latest AAA PC game fully cracked on the internet within a day of release with all the resources the devs behind the games have, there isn't realistically much a hobby like this to do to prevent it short of simply not releasing tables, it sucks, but people will steal anything and make torrents of it.

If you develop tables, you should do so for enjoyment - that the main thing, its *your* hobby! and if you do it just for yourself and don't release it that's fair enough totally your prerogative 
If you do choose to release it the way I'd think about it is it's great that all these people who I like on the sites that I like are downloading it and enjoying it, and don't worry about the people who are getting it via non-sanctioned routes - they're loosing out on the community, the discussions, the support, the comradery.

I also get the respect side of the modding thing which is a slightly different issue, I don't know how technically feasible this is but would something along lines be possible?
Start with the 'Original' release in the downloads section, and then have subsections in the downloads for the mods of that original table, so not have 15 different versions MOD versions as individual entries in the downloads almost like forks of the original version.
That way you could have the original authors in perpetuity and each mod is linked back to the original, and have a few required field as to what has been changed from the original and why.
That way it's easy to pick a mod if you want one, see the history of the table in all its iterations through time.

So for example 

TOM_Original_AuthorNameV1

           TOM_OriginalAuthorName_Vx

           TOM_ModAuthorName1_V1

           TOM_ModAuthorName2_V1

But as the mods would be attached to the master in the downloads there the provenance is preserved

There would need to be some way of agreeing to a new 'master' over time, so for example when Flupper releases Whirlwind that would be the start of a new tree of Whirlwinds if you follow me, and there may need to be some understanding that yes though history it was based on other peoples work when releasing a new 'master'

Dunno if the DB behind the forum is capable of that though.

[jpsalas]

@noah there is:
Mägo de Oz - the pinball - VPForums.org

 

And like i said before we have to respect that. Not that other people respect that, because all the tables are uploaded to that other site without our consent. That's why I keep saying it's just about manners and respect. 

 

I remember now why I added "no" to mod to that table It was because I hadn't got an answer from the group Mago de Oz yet, if they liked the table or not, or they liked the choice of songs. So maybe I had to change something. But Mago de Oz liked the table and the choice of songs But I forgot to change the permission to mod

 

And the reason why I asked the mods of my tables being uploaded here is because I don't visit much the other sites (almost never), and it is nice to see the mods At least it shows me that my tables are not so bad if someone decides to enhance them or use them as a base for their own

can someone point me to a thread where people are disapproving of there names being in this banner on the VP theft site?
 

Capture.JPG

 

 

I remember I said that I don't care if my tables are there in that thread And most of all since I don't need to support my tables there

Edited by jpsalas, 11 June 2021 - 04:59 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

I must have been grandfathered in...LOL

I've never had an issue with you, dude. I really don't have an issue with anyone. I just do what's in the best interest of the community as a whole as I see it. More members will be involved in the decision making in the near future. VPF will be member-run.

[remdwaas1986]

You are one of the most respected member in this community JP. It's a shame to see that people even don't respect your wishes. It gives joy to see what others can do with your creation.

I will send you a message soon again

[Noah Fentz]

@noah there is:
Mägo de Oz - the pinball - VPForums.org
 
And like i said before we have to respect that. Not that other people respect that, because all the tables are uploaded to that other site without our consent. That's why I keep saying it's just about manners and respect. 

 
I remember now why I added "no" to mod to that table It was because I hadn't got an answer from the group Mago de Oz yet, if they liked the table or not, or they liked the choice of songs. So maybe I had to change something. But Mago de Oz liked the table and the choice of songs But I forgot to change the permission to mod
 
And the reason why I asked the mods of my tables being uploaded here is because I don't visit much the other sites (almost never), and it is nice to see the mods At least it shows me that my tables are not so bad if someone decides to enhance them or use them as a base for their own

can someone point me to a thread where people are disapproving of there names being in this banner on the VP theft site?
 
Capture.JPG
 

 
I remember I said that I don't care if my tables are there in that thread And most of all since I don't need to support my tables there

I don't think the 'why you ask' is important. It's the fact that you HAVE asked.

That goes for all authors, and I'm not disputing authors shouldn't have say in their content. It's simply gone too far, in my opinion, especially with MODs of your work.

I see people giving bigus shit about not wanting to credit, so people don't know where it came from, or something along those lines. I see it with MODs of your tables all the time.
At this point, it's impossible to trace every table back to the original authors. We're a 20 year old hobby.

I think that's the biggest reason the policy needs changing. Back in '95, everyone could say it was ALL their work, since it was the very first recreation of a given table. Now, it's not so easy to claim that.

[nestorgian]

The opinion of a newbie on this

It is difficult for me to track each author or whose work is involved in each table, not counting the ideomatic barriers, which sometimes the translator does not help

I just know that I have not contributed much and that from my creations I steal a lot from everyone so I could never believe I am the owner of what I do, I only have thanks to all those who publish teach and share like vpforums that take the time to publish and give me a space.

note: unfortunately from Argentina paypal seems to be blocked to buy a subscription it is very chaotic to get dollars or transfer money from the country

[Thalamus]

I see people giving bigus shit about not wanting to credit, so people don't know where it came from, or something along those lines. I see it with MODs of your tables all the time.
At this point, it's impossible to trace every table back to the original authors. We're a 20 year old hobby.

 

Noah !??? Really ??? Do you read your own forums ?
 

Edited by Thalamus, 11 June 2021 - 07:59 PM.

[wiesshund]

I see people giving bigus shit about not wanting to credit, so people don't know where it came from, or something along those lines. 

 

 

I am confused

All his uploads start with something like

 

"This is a great table from A and B, i've given it a make over"

 

and all the original notes are still in the table script and info

So where is credit being taken away?

[Thalamus]

My answer is, this is FAR FROM unique for Bigus1. It might be to spite me, but, Avatar pr. example is based upon what HF, 32a and I did. Show respect from where you start your work or fuck off. https://vpuniverse.c...-2012oqqsanmod/ is how you release a table. He contacted me about it, and I told him the same thing I told Bigus1. This is far from information lost on Bigus1. He actually came asking if it was ok to mod. I told him it was never my table, but, if you start from what I added and continue to use it. Then it being a complete turd and asshole not mentioning it. That is my main issue with Bigus1 He doesn't show any respect and even Noah is good with it.

Edited by Thalamus, 11 June 2021 - 08:35 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

My answer is, this is FAR FROM unique for Bigus1. It might be to spite me, but, Avatar pr. example is based upon what HF, 32a and I did. Show respect from where you start your work or fuck off. https://vpuniverse.c...-2012oqqsanmod/ is how you release a table. He contacted me about it, and I told him the same thing I told Bigus1. This is far from information lost on Bigus1. He actually came asking if it was ok to mod. I told him it was never my table, but, if you start from what I added and continue to use it. Then it being a complete turd and asshole not mentioning it. That is my main issue with Bigus1 He doesn't show any respect and even Noah is good with it.

No, I am NOT good with it.

Look at it from my perspective. I have no fucking clue it's a MOD of another table, when the table modded isn't even here for me to compare it to. Then, when I finally do, when someone claims they made the table entirely from scratch, I run the table, and the FIRST thing I see is the VPM splash screen ... Table by JPSalas. Wtf?

This is why, if someone can't be bothered to share here has this issue, I really don't feel all uppity in their defense. Fuck, how demeaning is that?! I have to defend someone's work from modding when they don't even have the fucking courtesy to share it here AND they obviously used our content and resources? Revelation, huh?

This is ridiculous. We're all adults here, and we can't even fucking share and get on the same page?!

TALK to each other! That's all that's needed to end the frustration for everyone.

I think I've been fairly forthcoming with how I feel here lately. Give it a try!

Everything can be worked out.