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#41 Onevox

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 10:43 AM

 

While I'm running an audio subwoofer (a pretty good Boston Acoustics) from a soundbar system, I'm interested in these bass shaker transducer variety, mainly for the space savings. But the audio sub, which I have pointing upwards at an angle to my lockdown bar, does give a good thump. When I get my other two exciters hooked up, I'm thinking I'll need to tone down the sub so I can hear the exciters in the back.

 

Earlier you mentioned you were using these.

https://www.amazon.c..._s_a_1_1&sr=8-1

 

What are the other two exciters you are going to use?

 

 

I have two more of the 58mm in a box awaiting a replacement for a third amp (cautionary tale about aliexpress). One day, I'd like to try these for subs: https://www.amazon.c...rds=bass shaker


NOTE TO ALL: On Rusty's graphic, it shows up on a computer, but you may get (like me) a broken link icon on Tapatalk. 


Edited by Onevox, 25 August 2017 - 10:42 AM.

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#42 Brer Frog

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 11:27 AM

Onevox -

 

The Dayton 58mm exciters look like slightly smaller versions of the 70mm ones that Rusty uses.

I’ve ordered stuff from China & Hong Kong but not from aliexpress, I just ordered the small PAM8610 amp that Rick mentioned and I bought it from a USA Ebay seller. It cost me $6 instead of $4 but I won’t have to wait a month to get it.
 



#43 RustyCardores

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 01:15 PM

 

While I'm running an audio subwoofer (a pretty good Boston Acoustics) from a soundbar system, I'm interested in these bass shaker transducer variety, mainly for the space savings. But the audio sub, which I have pointing upwards at an angle to my lockdown bar, does give a good thump. When I get my other two exciters hooked up, I'm thinking I'll need to tone down the sub so I can hear the exciters in the back.

 
Earlier you mentioned you were using these.
https://www.amazon.c..._s_a_1_1&sr=8-1
 
What are the other two exciters you are going to use?
 
 
I have two more of the 58mm in a box awaiting a replacement for a third amp (cautionary tale about aliexpress). One day, I'd like to try these for subs: https://www.amazon.c...rds=bass shaker

NOTE TO ALL: On Rusty's graphic, it shows up on a computer, but you may get (like me) a broken link icon on Tapatalk. 


Stoopid Tapatalk :(

The images can always be viewed in the dev thread...

http://www.aussiearc...actile-Feedback)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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#44 rickh

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 07:11 PM

Folks this is my first Audio amp primer, "Bad, Good to Great".  I wrote this at a level that most will enjoy without getting into too much technical minutia.  It may contain grammatical and technical mistakes which will need correcting.  I hope you all enjoy it.

 

Low Voltage Mini-Amps; Bad, Good, and Great

Mini amps (those that we generally use for arcade use) are generally run from a low voltage DC power source; 24V or lower.  Their power ranges from 2 watts to almost 50.  Some claim to be Hi-Fi which has turned into an ambiguous claim of sound quality.  The term hi-fi was coined back in the midcentury to define high fidelity audio, void of audible hiss, pops and distortion.  With the advent of digital music pop and hiss have all but disappeared.  This leaves us with Distortion which technically comes in a few flavors.  For this essay we will focus on True Harmonic Distortion (THD), as it is the most common.  For the sake of simplicity in this primer a THD at rated power <1% is inaudible to most of us.  I do know of people that claim they can hear down to .1%, but I have never challenged them. So for simplicity let say a good mini amp needs to produce a specific power that produces THD below a certain threshold, let say again 1%THD.

What limits these mini-amps from producing good sound?  I have identified three elements that create these limitations: supply power (voltage and current), load impedance (8 or 4 ohms?), amplifier IC specs (all amps use ICs).

Before I dive into this deeper, allow me to offer a primer in ohms law which dictates the absolute power that can be delivered to a loudspeaker or exciter.  Power is defined as supply voltage squared divided by the speaker impedance.  Example 1: 12V squared / 8 ohms = 18W.  Example 2:12V squared / 4 ohms = 36W.  Example 3:  24V squared / 8 ohms = 72W. Example 4: 24V squared / 4 ohms = 144W.

From these four examples we can assume that a higher supply voltage and lower speaker impedance will produce the highest output wattage.  Remember that these are absolute power assumptions that are chiefly dependent on supply current and the type of audio amp used.  Therefore, it is unlikely that any amplifier can reach an RMS power value that is 60% of the absolute power.

 

General Requirements for a Virtual Pinball Audio Amplifier

These amps need to faithfully and realistically produce high transient sounds such as knocks, clicks, dings, and hits.  To follow this requirement we need an amplifier that produces >4 Watts RMS per channel with a 15 Watt peak reserve with a THD <5%.

 

Other Parts to the Equation

The power source needs to provide ample current.  Typical 2.1 system needs at least 2 amps at 12VDC.  If using the CPU power source, the line input ground shields should only be terminated on one end (either from sound source or amplifier, not both).  Ignoring this will produce ground loops where you might hear the 50/60 Hz hum or worse yet, CPU noise which will drive you nuts.  Last most 2.1 systems use four amplifiers; two for the left/right channels and two in a bridge configuration for driving the sub-woofer. 

Active Pre Amp tone/volume controls are always good to have, some are better than others.  For a 2.1 system, a cross-over filter is included.  This filter passes the mid bass to high audio to the left/right channels, and the low frequencies to the sub-woofer.  This is all a personal preference and I am leaving it out of the equation for now with the exception of a volume control which I think is requisite.

 

The Bad Mini-Amp

Speaking in generalizations, a bad mini-amp is limited to 12V or lower and produces <4W at >5% THD @4 ohms.  These amplifiers have little to no dynamic headroom and produce compressed audio that lacks depth.  These amplifiers also have small power filter capacitors used as a temporary source of power during transient loading.

 

The Good Mini-Amp

As we progress up the food chain, we have amplifiers systems that range from 4 to 10 watt with a THD below ~2%.  These amps can be supplied with a power source above 12VDC and have filter caps rated at >25V with a value > 1,000 uFd.  Again, these requirements are generations.

 

The Great Mini-Amp

At the top, we have the heavyweights with a nominal supply voltage of 24V.  This higher voltage allows them to drive higher impedance loads at power levels rivaling those of average mini-amps with 4 ohm loads.  Expect power levels exceeding 12 Watts and THD down to academic levels.  Great mini amps normally are class D amplifiers.  Although scorned by many audio aficionados, these are power efficient devices that are small, cheap and make full use of a limited power source.  Likewise, great linear amplifiers normally cost more, but are capable of driving lower impedance loads.

 

Bad to Great

There is a large contrast between Bad and Good Mini-Amps that is obvious to almost anyone that is not tone deaf.  The mushy lows emanating from the woofer to the garbled sound coming from the midrange at rated power are signs of a bad amplifier.  In most cases, bad amplifiers can sound acceptable at low volume. 

As a Six Sigma Green Belt, I have been repeatedly told that ‘Good’ is the Enemy of ‘Great’.  The exception is Mini-amps.  The difference between good and great in this case is academic, with value being the factor.  The examples in my research range from $5 to $25 USD and cost does not always define what is great.

 

Conclusion: Good is Great

These points are desired:

·         Amplifiers with >16VDC power source ·         Tone controls including treble, bass, volume ·         Class D amplifier ·         THD @ < 3% for all channels ·         Power output 5W RMS, 20Watts Peak ·         Output impedance down to 4 ohms (most will do this)

 -Rick Horwitz


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#45 xantari

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 07:21 PM

Rick, which Amp's fall into the Bad, Good, Great amp categories in your opinion?



#46 rickh

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 07:27 PM

Rick, which Amp's fall into the Bad, Good, Great amp categories in your opinion?

Great question!  I will detail this in my upcoming chapter.  Stay tuned......


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#47 mjr

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 08:01 PM

Rick - one of the big thing I've run into with these eBay class D amps is a really poor noise floor.  That is, audible noise coming from the speakers during silent passages in the input signal.  That was a problem with the Lepai LP-168HA that everyone around here used to use (it's probably still common, for that matter), although that particular device has bigger problems that drove me away from it.  I tried one of the eBay TPA3116D2 amps, and it was a heck of a lot better than the Lepai in terms of power and linearity, but it still had a really annoying amount of noise when the input signal is silent.  I finally dumped it and upgraded to a mid-price car amplifier, which is a vast improvement on all of the eBay options I've found.

 

My experience with the eBay TPA3116D2 amp made me pretty lukewarm about class D amps.  They can be done well - the car amp I have is a class D, actually - but that evidently takes some amount of engineering beyond just using the TI chips.  So I wouldn't advise people that class D automatically == good.

 

If you're primarily using these for tactile speakers, it might not be an issue, since those sorts of drivers will naturally attenuate the higher frequencies anyway.  But if you're thinking in terms of regular audio speakers, you might want to compare the noise floor on some of the amps you've looked at and include that in your recommendations.



#48 Brer Frog

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 08:27 PM

I just bought one of those TPA3116D2 amps. Guess I'll find out how it works after it arrives from China in a month or so.

 

Not to be confused with the PAM8610 amp that I ordered last night. IOW two amps are coming.


Edited by Brer Frog, 25 August 2017 - 08:35 PM.


#49 rickh

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 09:20 PM

Rick - one of the big thing I've run into with these eBay class D amps is a really poor noise floor.  That is, audible noise coming from the speakers during silent passages in the input signal.  That was a problem with the Lepai LP-168HA that everyone around here used to use (it's probably still common, for that matter), although that particular device has bigger problems that drove me away from it.  I tried one of the eBay TPA3116D2 amps, and it was a heck of a lot better than the Lepai in terms of power and linearity, but it still had a really annoying amount of noise when the input signal is silent.  I finally dumped it and upgraded to a mid-price car amplifier, which is a vast improvement on all of the eBay options I've found.

 

My experience with the eBay TPA3116D2 amp made me pretty lukewarm about class D amps.  They can be done well - the car amp I have is a class D, actually - but that evidently takes some amount of engineering beyond just using the TI chips.  So I wouldn't advise people that class D automatically == good.

 

If you're primarily using these for tactile speakers, it might not be an issue, since those sorts of drivers will naturally attenuate the higher frequencies anyway.  But if you're thinking in terms of regular audio speakers, you might want to compare the noise floor on some of the amps you've looked at and include that in your recommendations.

MJR,

Indeed. Some of the cheaper Class D amps are void of filtering. All class D amplifier use an ultrasonic switching.  Without filtering, artifacts can be passed to the speaker; in some instances you may even pick up stray radio stations.  The TPA3116D2 based amp I am using has such a filter.  This is a dual sided sword.  One side, I get a decent S/N, but on the other side it  does not drive a lower impedance system such as a 2 ohm speaker load.  My biggest push for the class D is that they make efficient use of the a 12V system without requiring a heatsink.  BTW- The only Lepai that I found as decent was the  LP808 which used a Sanyo power opamp. It powered a pair of backbox speakers and subwoofer (2 channel VC on woofer) with better than acceptable quality.   Anyway, my next chapter will have the various models that I evaluated including tear downs.  Since I am on travel, this will need to wait.

 

Rick 


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#50 Onevox

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 09:36 PM

Rick, this is great info.

 

Looking forward to your recommendations. Amazing how much muddy or mis- information is out there. I read and read, and couldn't get a straight answer on the lower power amps. So I'll be running with three 'bad' amps for the forseeable future.

 

Is there any thing I can do to get the most from them?

Examples:

1. Run the maximum voltage input in the stated range?

2. Run a higher amp rating than what is stated?

 

Also, I think I'm running all 8ohm speakers/exciters. But now I'm wondering if I'm running 4 ohm BB speakers with an 8 ohm sub. 


Edited by Onevox, 25 August 2017 - 09:36 PM.

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#51 rickh

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 12:48 AM

Onevox,

 

You nailed it dude!  Run your amplifier at the highest recommended voltage and be sure that it supplies enough current.  BTW- I am playing with this cheap DC to DC converter that supplies 2.5amps of current at 24V, it runs on 12VDC.  I am currently using it to power a knocking solenoid with great success, im anxious to see if it can be used for an audio amp.

 

UPDATE- As for the 8 ohm exciters, this does lower your maximum output.  What you might consider is experimenting by placing both exciters in parallel with a single channel.  its worth a try.

  

regards,

 

Rick


Edited by rickh, 26 August 2017 - 04:31 PM.

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#52 Brer Frog

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 02:37 AM

Rick -

In one of the threads you mentioned using a 16V, 3A wall wart to power the TPA3116D2 2.1 amplifier. I searched & found 1 on Ebay but can’t find it again. Apparently these are a bit difficult to come by.

Today’s searching brings up mostly 9V wall warts even though I specify 16V. Anyway I found a lot of 16V & 19V laptop power supplies. The typical was 16VDC @ 4.5A or 19V @ 4.74A. Both were new, about $8.00 with free shipping from USA.

Laptop power supplies look more heavy duty than any wall wart I have, but then I don't have any 3A wall warts.

Any reason not to use one of these? Such as poor filtering & they let the laptop do that?
 



#53 rickh

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 04:26 PM

Rick -

In one of the threads you mentioned using a 16V, 3A wall wart to power the TPA3116D2 2.1 amplifier. I searched & found 1 on Ebay but can’t find it again. Apparently these are a bit difficult to come by.

Today’s searching brings up mostly 9V wall warts even though I specify 16V. Anyway I found a lot of 16V & 19V laptop power supplies. The typical was 16VDC @ 4.5A or 19V @ 4.74A. Both were new, about $8.00 with free shipping from USA.

Laptop power supplies look more heavy duty than any wall wart I have, but then I don't have any 3A wall warts.

Any reason not to use one of these? Such as poor filtering & they let the laptop do that?
 

Mike,

 

I think that I abuse the term 'wall wort'.  A small, self contained switching power supply is technically what it is.   Search for 16V 3A power supply on amazon.   I found this $9 wonder on Amazon:https://www.amazon.c...3A power supply

 

EEEK! I just realized that your PSU should have been 24V @3A, not 16V @3A .   Here is the PSU for that amp.  BTW-It simply plugged in, no wiring (your milage may vary).      https://www.amazon.c...e?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

 

If you promise not to crank it up too high, you might get by with a 2A.

Regards,

 

Rick


Edited by rickh, 26 August 2017 - 04:36 PM.

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#54 Brer Frog

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 09:48 PM

Rick -

 

I thought you were suggesting a 16V supply because you wanted to run the amp at only 25W per channel.

 

Were you recommending the 16V power supply for the Pam8610 amplifier?

 

Mike



#55 rickh

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 12:05 PM

Mike,

 

The volume control throttles the total amount of Watts.  Supplying insufficient amount of power will also limit power, but in an undesirable way, it clips the output.  Us mixed signal weenies call this "compression",  audiophile call it simply "over-driven distortion".  

The maximum voltage for the PAM8610 chip is 15VDC. 


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#56 Brer Frog

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 11:20 PM

Rick -

 

I understand what you're saying, I presumed with a 16V supply that you just were not driving the amp into cutoff.

 

So far I haven't ordered any power supplies but do have the Pam8610 coming from a USA vendor & the TPA3116D2 coming from China. Also have a couple 2" speakers coming from Parts Express that I have to squeeze into the backbox.

 

IIRC you used a 6" woofer in your 27" mini-pin. What make was that?

 

Also in one of your builds you mentioned using a marine speaker for the woofer. What is the advantage of using that?



#57 STV

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 12:58 AM

You can spill beer on it.  heh.    :)



#58 rickh

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 02:56 AM

Mike,

 

You can use a 16VDC supply, but you will be limited to 10 Watts of clean sound, which is really all you need.  As for a subwoofer, I tried a couple of Pyle 6" subwoofers and went with a dual voice coil 4 ohm, as this sounded so sweet on my first cabinet that I could not resist using it for my 2nd build.  The dual voice coils are for standard amplifiers that have only 2 channels (not a 3rd or 2.1 for the woofer), each L/R channel is shared with both coils of the woofer. In my application I am currently using only one of the two coils. My plans are to buy another TPA3116 and use it to drive only the exciters and use the third channel to drive the other half of the subwoofer.  This system will drive all the mechanical pinball sounds and vibration, while my other system will drive the VPinMAME sounds.  I still  working out the details on how I can use two sound CODEC simultaneously.  Perhaps I will need to buy one of those swoopy Dolby 7.1 cards.  I don't know, this is beyond my mix signal expertise.

 

Rick


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#59 RustyCardores

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 07:12 AM

I've added a third diagram detailing the layout option for utilising the surround sound of 10.4 beta.

 

See http://www.aussiearc...ctile-Feedback)

 

This third diagram displays DJRobX's "multi-amp" system that utilises the bass management of Windows to send all bass to a singular sub


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'SSF' - Get awesome VPX Surround Sound Tactile Feedback in your cab https://www.facebook...oups/SSFeedback/

'Virtual Topper' - It's cooler than you might think! Check out the pics on my Instagram.


#60 rickh

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 04:29 PM

I've added a third diagram detailing the layout option for utilising the surround sound of 10.4 beta.

 

See http://www.aussiearc...ctile-Feedback)

 

This third diagram displays DJRobX's "multi-amp" system that utilises the bass management of Windows to send all bass to a singular sub

Rusty,

Thanks.  I can't wait to experiment when I get back from travel. 

Regards,

 

Rick


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