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This is how you run an original Plasma DMD on your homebrew machine!


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#41 russdx

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:09 AM

sweet so we just need a 80v/100v tap wind transformer and the other voltages can come from ps psu?



#42 zebulon

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:36 PM

Yup. If you look at the Williams design, the 80v goes through the circuit and becomes the +62V, the 100v runs through 3 circuits and becomes -113V, -125V and +12V (never understood why they just didn't regulate the unreg 11.9v in the box instead).

 

There's no reason not to use the cleaner, better regulated 12v from an atx power supply. 


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#43 antropus

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:36 PM

Word!

So... after all the emails exchanged, the fact that I forwarded the Display tech specs and everything else, here's their reply:
"Before I can quote I need to know what the exact specifications need with the current flow."...

Anyone?

#44 russdx

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 07:09 PM

well if im reading the doc right the anode/cathode are sucking 250ma with all pixels lit, so prob want 1a per winding to be safe?

 

what do you think zeb?



#45 zebulon

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:28 AM

yup 1-2 amps max...


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#46 antropus

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 01:12 AM

Thanks guys! I just replied to their email. Lets wait.

-Kris

#47 RoccoC

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:48 PM

Thanks for all of the awesome info in this thread! I am very interested in using a plasma DMD in my build, and this has been a great help!

 

Any update on the quote for the custom transformer? If it would be helpful, I can reach out to a company I've used in the past to get a quote as well...



#48 antropus

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:06 AM

Yep, I got their email... too expensive in comparison to two transformers for 40 bucks.

Here's their email:
Cost of a 120 volt primary with secondaries of 80 volt @ 2A and 100 volt @ 2A is $101.04 for qty of one and $86.47 each for qty of 25 pcs plus a one time design and setup charge of $80.00. You can view the size on the above attachment.

Feel free to contact the other company and lets hope for the best!

I'm getting my 80v transformer this Friday! Excited and scared at same time :)

-Kris

#49 RoccoC

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:32 AM

Yeah, I wouldn't want to spend $90+ either, especially if the two separate transformers you found work just as well. Eager to hear how it works out for you.

 

I'll request a quote from another company for the heck of it - maybe it'll come out cheaper. Though I'm curious whether 2A windings are really necessary? The 80v transformer you're waiting on only outputs 20mA, so depending on how that works out, maybe we'd be safe with a smaller (cheaper?) transformer. Anyway, I'll wait to see... :)



#50 kruge99

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:22 AM

Sounds like a good reason for the manufacturer to make a Kickstarter to gauge interest in a plasma display power board...
Yep, I got their email... too expensive in comparison to two transformers for 40 bucks.

Here's their email:

Cost of a 120 volt primary with secondaries of 80 volt @ 2A and 100 volt @ 2A is $101.04 for qty of one and $86.47 each for qty of 25 pcs plus a one time design and setup charge of $80.00. You can view the size on the above attachment.


Feel free to contact the other company and lets hope for the best!

I'm getting my 80v transformer this Friday! Excited and scared at same time :)

-Kris
 



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#51 russdx

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:07 AM

i think we would get away with 500ma per coil   2amp was maybe over kill, would that make it cheaper?



#52 RoccoC

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:02 AM

Well, I went ahead and asked for a quote on a transformer with 1A secondaries. Here's what I received:

 


Single Primary, 120V 60Hz w/ 6" 18awg leads

Secondary 1: 80V @ 1.0A w/ 6" 18awg leads

Secondary 2: 100V @ 1.0A w/ 6" 18awg leads

Load regulation: 6%

Temp rise: 45C

Class B Insulation

Weight: 4.5lb

Dimensions: 3.75" x 2.125" x 3.125"

 

$47.70 each for 25pcs; $44.77 each for 50pcs. Lead time is 2 weeks.

 

We could probably get the price down a bit further if we could nail down exact requirements, but I'd be in at this price. I don't need 25 of them, though.  :) I wonder if there's enough interest to warrant a 25pc order?


Edited by RoccoC, 22 March 2013 - 12:09 AM.


#53 russdx

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:23 AM

count me in,   but we need a demo of the 1amp coils first just to confirm its powerful enough to power the DMD dont want to order 25 and find it dont work lol



#54 zebulon

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:58 AM

I'd be in for 1. The 1A should do the trick as long as we supply the 5v and 12v from outside the circuit. The 62v  from the 80v winding is the biggest load I believe, the -100v is just to excite the plasma.


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#55 mameman23

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:06 PM

I would take 2 www. Xtremepinball.com
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#56 russdx

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:09 PM

data sheet say they only need 200ma each yet those displays want a good 2amp psu so not sure were all the load comes from?



might even get away with 500ma winding? or even 250ma winding (little baby transformer lol)

 

we need some one to measure the current usage on a plasma dmd whilst its plugged into a real pinball.



#57 RoccoC

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 05:39 AM

Well, the Vishay DMD datasheet says it consumes max 45 watts of power. A transformer with 500mA windings would output 50 watts on the 100V winding and 40 watts on the 80V winding, right? Neglecting to take into account what the power supply board does with it (and probably a bunch of other factors - I'm not an EE  :) ), seems like 500mA would be sufficient?

 

Hmm, maybe someone on a pinball forum like pinside or something would know more about current requirements... Or we can try to convince Kris to tear into his Monster Bash to stick an ammeter in there?  :P


Edited by RoccoC, 23 March 2013 - 05:58 AM.


#58 zebulon

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:34 PM

Personally, I'd stick with a 1A transformer if for no other reason than to keep the supply potential well above the load requirements....but that's just me.


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#59 antropus

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 08:01 AM

Hey guys! Life is crazy right now, reason why I vanished!

I'll be teaching two different classes, starting next weekend and I need to update some of my material.

Check it out: http://www.zbrushwor...acter-Creation#

 

Also... I'll be a father for the second time!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

On top of that, a TON of work at the studio.

 

Anyway, I got the 80v transformer last Friday and spent the last 3 hours:

- Assembling a little box/enclosure for it

- Adding an inline fuse

- Wiring both 100v and 80v transformers into a single connector

- Wiring the 12v and 5v into a single connector from the PSU

- Plugging the whole thing to the DMD piggy

- Measuring the loads from the DMD piggy J604 (output to the DMD)

 

The good news is: everything is going through, all the way to the J604!!! :D

 

The not so good news: I'm concerned about the loads I'm reading. I know the tolerance is about 10% and all of them are under the tolerance, which is good:

ideal:           my multimeter reads:              Tolerance:

125v                   136.9v                        112.5v - 137.5v

113v                   105.6v                        101.7v - 124.3v

KEY

GND

GND

5v                           5.1v                            4.5v - 5.5v

12v                       11.5v                          10.8v - 13.2v

62v                       63.1v                          55.8v - 68.2v

Although everything seems fine because they are all under the tolerance, I found some info saying that the difference between the 125v and 113v has to be 12v as a rule. For example, if the -125 volts is measured as -118 volts, the other voltage should be -106 volts.

 

Here's the complete info I found online:

Testing DMD Voltages.
If the fuses are good on the dot matrix controller board (or audio/visual board for WPC-95), you should next check the power at the DMD itself. Voltages used are +62, +12, +5, -113 and -125. Check these voltages at the dot matrix display, or at connector J604 on the controller board. The pin out is:
Pin 1: -125 volts
Pin 2: -113 volts
Pin 3: Key
Pin 4: Ground
Pin 5: Ground
Pin 6: +5 volts
Pin 7: +12 volts
Pin 8: +62 volts
If the -125 volts is missing, -113 volts will be missing too. All voltages should be pretty much right at the above specs, or within 10%. In regards to the -113 and -125 volts, these two voltages need to be 12 volts apart! So if the -125 volts is measured as -118 volts, the other voltage should be -106 volts. If they are not within 12 volts of each other, the dot matrix controller's high voltage section probably needs to be rebuilt.
Remember the voltages created by the DMD controller card are the -125, -113 and +62. The +5 and +12 volts come from the driver board (if those are missing, and the machine is actually booting, suspect a connector problem on the DMD controller or DMD itself).

Both the -125 and the -113 volts are the same voltage.
The dot matrix display will not work if both the -125 volts and -113 volts measure as the same voltage. These two negative high voltages should be 12 volts apart. The difference in voltage occurs because of diode D6 (D3 on WPC-95), a 12 volt 1N4742 diode. The failure of this diode also kills transistor Q7 (known as Q7 in all WPC generations, a MJE15030). The -125 volts and -113 volts must be 12 volts apart, or the dot matrix display will not work!

The +62 volts drops to +12 volts under load.
When this happens, check transistor Q3 (all WPC generations). This transistor has probably shorted. Also check diode D3.

The +62 volts is not +62 volts.
On WPC-S and earlier games, the positive DC voltage trace that comes from a very small bridge rectifier BR1 is physically routed underneath resistor R9 (1.8k 5 watt resistor). Because of the heat generated by this 5 watt resistor, and the current drawn from the bridge rectifier, this circuit board trace can become burnt and break underneath resistor R9. Because the trace physically runs under this resistor, the broken trace can be hard to see. If the +62 volts is not +62 volts, check this trace.

The -125 volts is too High.
Another problem is the -125 volts is too high, reading instead -140 volts. The usual cause of this problem is a broken trace on the circuit board. These traces are fragile, and the high voltage section of the dot matrix controller can get very hot, and burn them. Use your DMM set to continuity and check all traces.

Rebuilding the Dot Matrix High Voltage (HV) Section.
If the fuses are good, and the display itself is good (tested in another game), it is time to rebuild the high voltage section of the Dot matrix controller board. But before doing that, raise the playfield and inspect all the connections from the transformer in the bottom of the cabinet. Though a rare problem, one of the connectors may have come apart or became oxidized.

After all else is checked, the best idea is to just replace everything in the high voltage section (parts also listed at dmdhv.htm). Note all these parts are also available in kit form from Great Plains Electronics for around $6 per kit. This is a *very* economical way to rebuild the dot matrix high voltage section. The parts to replace includes:

Q6 (MJE15031 or NTE55): Controls the -125 volts (and supplies voltage to the -113 volts).
Q7 (MJE15030 or NTE54/BUV27/BUV28): Controls the -113 volts.
Q3 (Q1 on WPC-95, MJE15030 or NTE54/BUV27/BUV28): Part of the +62 volt section.
Q4,Q5 (MPSD52 or 2N5401/NTE288): Part of the -125 volt section.
Q2,Q10 (Q2,Q3 on WPC-95, MPSD02 or 2N5551/NTE194): Part of the +62 volt section.
D4,D5 (D1,D18 on WPC-95, 1N4758 or NTE5090, 56 volts): Part of the -125 volt section.
D6 (D3 on WPC-95, 1N4742 or NTE142, 12 volts): Part of the -113 volt section.
D3 (D2 on WPC-95, 1N4759 or NTE149, 62 volts): Part of the +62 volt section.
Q1 (2N3904, WPC-S and prior only).
R4,R5 (120 ohm 1/2 watt). Usually Ok, but replace if they look burned.
Check/Replace the Resistors too.
Also check the resistor values. Resistors either work or do not work, and are easily tested (unlike the above transistors). All resistors should be within 10% of spec. Replace any resistors that are out of tolerence or that appear burnt. The 5 watt resistors take the most abuse; if these are working yet cracked, replace them! Always mount resistors slightly above the board to allow air flow below them. On all these resistor, replace if they look at all damaged, even if they measure OK.

1.8k ohms, 5 watts: R9 on WPC-S and prior (R44 on WPC-95).
4.7k ohms, 5 watts: R8 on WPC-S and prior (R43 on WPC-95).
120 ohm, 5 watts: R11 on WPC-S and prior (R28 on WPC-95).
120 ohm 1/2 watt resistors at R4, R5 WPC-S and prior (R30, R31 on WPC-95).
47k ohms 1/2 watt at R3, R6, R12, R13 on WPC-S and prior (R25, R26 R27, R29).
An Alternative to Rebuilding the HV Section.
If the inexpensive HV rebuild kit from Ed at www.greatplainselectronics.com is beyond one's technical skills, there is an alternative to rebuilding the high voltage section. That is to purchase a pre-fabricated board which essentially does the same thing. The DMD-HVP (dot matrix display-high voltage power) board is available from www.pinball-parts.com for about $60. This plugs into and overlays the existing DMD controller board, replacing the original high voltage section on the original DMD controller board. Installs in about five minutes with no soldering. If the original high voltage section is blown on the original DMD controller board, it does not matter (as this completely replaces it). A good alternative for those that have more money than time, or limited soldering skills. Only works on pre-WPC95 games though.

I have some minor critisms with the DMD HV board though. For example, they use the smaller WPC-95 style fuses. Now this would be Ok if the board worked on WPC-95 games. But since it does not, it puts a mix of fuse sizes into a WPC game that otherwise don't use this smaller fuse size. This is bad for the end consumer that may have a supply of stock WPC HV fuses, which now won't work in their game! Also, I feel there should be LEDs for each of the high voltages to show at a glace that -125 volts, -113 volts, +62 volts (and perhaps the +12 volts and +5 volts) were working on the board.

DMD Components by Voltage.
Here are the same list of components, organized by voltage. If only a particular voltage is missing from your DMD, only these selective components can be replaced (not recommended):

-125 volts: MJE15031 transistor Q6 (all WPC versions). MPSD52 transistors Q4, Q5 (all WPC versions). 1N4758 diodes D4, D5 (D1 and D18 on WPC-95). All these components supply voltage to the -113 volt section too. Hence, replace the -113 volt components too.
-113 volts: MJE15030 transistor Q7 (all WPC versions). 1N4742 diode D6 (D3 on WPC-95), which drops the -125 volts down to -113 volts.
+62 volts: MJE15030 transistor Q3 (Q1 on WPC-95). MPSD02 transistors Q2, Q10 (Q2, Q3 on WPC-95). 1N4759 diode D3 (D2 on WPC-95).
The BIGGEST Tip when Fixing the High Voltage.
The single biggest tip when fixing the high voltage section on the DMD controller is this: REPLACE EVERYTHING. This is a high voltage section. This means if all parts were replaced except for ONE bad part, this bad part can cause all the others just replaced to immediately fail! It's just not worth the trouble. Rebuild the whole high voltage section, and replace everything. In the long run money and time will be saved.

This made me concerned and I'm now afraid to test the DMD :-/

 

My question is: knowing everything is under the limits, should I try to fire it up even if the difference between the high voltages is not 12v, but 31.3v(!!!) instead? Am I risking damaging the DMD if I try?

 

My second concern/question is: will the 80v transformer be able to handle the load, since the specs are : single voltage winding, 80V (40-0-40) at 20mA center tapped?

 

Thanks!

-Kris

 

ps.: things look promising. Wish me luck :)



#60 antropus

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 08:32 AM

Reading a little about this and seems like this might be a problem with the DMD piggy not regulating the high voltages correctly. The 80v section seems fine, generating the 62v at 63v, but the 100v seems a little busted for not producing the right offset between the 125v and 113v (12v). 31.3v seems pretty extreme!

What do you guys think? I wish I had another driver board just to test it out...

 

-Kris