90 replies to this topic

[unclewilly]

The plastics look nice. We will probably have to do 2 playfield and plastics textures to show them with lights on and lights off. If you look at the Meteor playfields i posted you will see what i am talking about. We can simulate the light changes with drop walls. Here is the Table at the appropriate dimensions as the real table. The playfield image is loaded into the table as well as a blue print for building the table. The blueprint is accurate except the right sling shot is a little off. It can be corrected using the playfield texture. We may have to shrink the playfield texture down to 1024x2048 depending on how large the table file becomes as we build it. It is just easier to work on the graphics when the resolution is larger. This is the table angle i was thinking about. Check out one of JP Salases tables when looking at the backdrop. He does the actual cabinet walls of the table and rails on the backdrop to allow for a larger viewing angle on the table. Also look at one of his tables to see how he does the led displays on the backdrop. This might be more appropriate for the table. This is just my thoughts on the table construction. Let me know what you guys think? Anyone?

Here is the table with the current PF image at a large viewing angle:



Here is the actual table file:
 Voltan_Escapes_Cosmic_Doom__Bally_1978__RC1__.vpt   2.85MB   18 downloads

[rhilker]

Actually I hate that angle and got almost beheaded by bitching about in the forums. They call it art. Lets do both. A ball eye view that you prefer and the standard view. I don't know anyone who puts his nose to the table top when playing. Usually you hang over the table.

Here's some more back glasses. I was sure that the glass was a magenta colour until I reviewed them all, now I think it was a bright red. I've never seen the actual machine so it's hard to tell. Anyway take your pick boss:






As far as the plunger ball marks go I can fix that in two seconds. I knew it was off but wasn't worried about it. It would be the last graphic detail to fix.

Edited by rhilker, 18 April 2009 - 10:15 PM.

[rhilker]

As far as lights on and lights off goes I can do that with one click in photoshop. It will be a great up grade to the game. The seperate scoring would be no problem to do graphically but in VPmame shouldn't it be on one screen? On the low angle version can we create enough space to center at the top of the table. How aboult writing our own DMD? I sure as hell know I can't do it but it would take this POS into the 90's.

I really hate the physics of this game as is. It's really hard to control the plunger shot because of the elastisity of the rebound bumper and the play value is not there. You cant hit the 2 or 8 targets with the flippers and not scratch, that kind of thing. The 5 target is death from the right. I'm going to make a list to address. It's my experience that most designers don't put enough power in the flippers to acurately shoot the ball and it makes it harder. I always default the flippers to 100 when I feel I don't have enough power to make it to the top. I never played a pin that coudn't hammer the ball off the glass when asked to. I think we have to look at adjusting the alley's when we lay-out the table.

Anyway, I'll do a low angle back glass.

Edited by rhilker, 18 April 2009 - 10:50 PM.

[unclewilly]

Thats Perfect to do both views. I had planned to build the table angle independent with no decals and what not on the backglass. I also want to do a 16:9 of the table. I figure we might as well, the table will be the same it's just adding the actual backglass.
I don't know how to descrine what i was talking about with the backglass without pictures. I thought we could inlay the displays like they did on Black Knight:


Sot the actual Backglass Looks like this:


Could you put the 4 player score boxes on the right side of your backdrop image
with the credit and balls boxes under the row of scores.
Then we can inlay the displays with leds, like they did on the black knight table.
I hope that makes sense.

If you want to use the straight DMD like the old Voltan table did, you would just need one box.

Does anyone else from the group have any input on any of this?


I started making table objects. Didn't get too far, just the main pegs used on the table and the stylr of rubber creation i think looks best. Next i am going to work on creating the small pegs and pop bumpers. Once that is done I was going to start laying the table out, pegs rubbers bumpers. Does that sound good?

Here is an image of a object model table with the type of pegs used in voltan and some rubbers. I just set up 2 slings and have a lone peg to show you what they look like. If you are ok with the looks of the pegs and rubbers. I'll start placing them on the actual wip table.

[rhilker]

What you want with the scoring has already been done:

VPmame



VP



Like I said, you don't need a DMD to make this table and the existing DMD is crap. The Eala VP table is actually better than the VPmame table.

Edited by rhilker, 18 April 2009 - 11:35 PM.

[unclewilly]

What you want with the scoring has already been done:

VPmame



VP



Like I said, you don't need a DMD to make this table and the existing DMD is crap. The Eala VP table is actually better than the VPmame table.

What i was going to do was to translate the dmd to actual leds like the black knight table and not show the pinmame dmd. That way the coding will be much easier because the rom will do all the work. Coding for the roms is really the main thing i wanted to learn in this project. And i think translating to the leds like the black knight table looks more realistic, even more realistic then the Pinmame DMD.
Look at the pinbot Table in the editor and you will see what i mean about not using the pinmame DMD and using Lights to simulate each display. It allows you to put each of the displays whereever you want on the backdrop.

Pinbot Leds:
 LEDS.jpg   128.91KB   18 downloads

Pinbot Showing Pinmame:
 LEDS_PinMame.jpg   130.76KB   17 downloads

The Leds in the back drop in the editor:
 BDLEDS.jpg   534KB   21 downloads

That way we can have the accuracy of the rom without the ugly pinmame window, with led displays as on the real table?

The VP way is a lot of coding that the rom will take care of.

[unclewilly]

BTW:

Unclewilly your table graphics look great. I need some help there! NOW, who to help scripting?

I think Destruk will help with the scripting. I can probably figure it out for the most part by looking at the existing script. I just would like help explaining what the actuall calls are. I figured out how to script FP tables by looking at other scripts. The reason i want to use the rom is, i have experience scripting a rom based table from scratch, It can be a lot of code that i really don't want to write if i don't have to. The Bad Cats Table i did from scratch with no rom was 16248 lines of code and took me about 5 or 6 months to write. Looking at the Pinmame voltan script looks like it would only take a week or 2 if all the switches and lights are labeled correctly.

Are you alright with the pegs and rubbers?
If so, tomorrow i will lay out all the large pegs and rubbers. The plastics don't really take that long to make in the editor, and once that is done i can make you a blueprint to start laying out the plastics textures.

I did this much of The VP9 Bad Cats i'm working on in a few hours:
4:3 view:


16:9 view:

[rhilker]

Unclewilly:

I understand what you want to accomplish with the layout. On the low level table backgroung how many LED fields and what size?, how may command boxes displays and what size?

Will you guys keep it your head that I'm a graphics guy and do not consider this art.

Being critical and having some open forum about short comings is the only way to improving our lot. If I'm going to get kicked in the head everytime I say "the music" sucks then I might as well as thats it.

Edited by rhilker, 19 April 2009 - 12:54 AM.

[unclewilly]

Here is the backdrop to spectrum by jp. I changed the inclination and field of view on voltan to:
inclination: 53
Field of View: 31

It matches this table so for the low view you could use this as a guide.
I basically would need 4 score boxes
and a box for credits and balls played. You can do them the size they are on spectrum but place them where you see fit on the backdrop.
For the view that you like, overlooking the table, i would also need the same boxes.

You could actually make them a little larger if you would like as i can scale the led lights to fit the box. They just need to be proportionate to the ones the spectrum backdrop. If the boxes were in the exact same place (not in the backdrop but spacially in the texture) and the exact same size on both backdrops they could be inter changable on the same release. What i mean is the lights won't move if the backdrop changes so the boxes will need to be in the same place.

What i was thinking was, we can include both backdrops in the release and then whichever view the user likes then can simply change the backdrop and the inclination and field of view.

I hope that makes sense.

I attached the spectrum backdrop.
 backdrop.jpg   139.5KB   35 downloads

[unclewilly]

hey Noah,
I was just curious.... is there a way to make pinmame use samples or is that only for certain tables. Like i know LOTR used samples at first and now it emulates the sound.
Would it be possible to make samples for a table to use.

Just curious, i never thought about the sound too much and how the rom used it.

-Scott

[EalaDubhSidhe]

A new version of Voltan is going to need completely new playfield graphics. Working with what little resources were available in 2002, everything was stitched together out of bits and pieces, and while it all 'worked' in the end, there's bound to be a lot of room for more object accuracy.

Also, could I suggest a more eye-neutral angle of 50/45? With the table at the extreme angle it is now, the perspective makes it look so huge compared to the player that not only are you barely looking over the glass, it's like you have to stand on a chair to play it.

Since I'm a little late to this particular party, who can tell what's been decided upon so far, and who is working on which field?

Edited by EalaDubhSidhe, 19 April 2009 - 07:45 PM.

[unclewilly]

hey ellah,
resources for this are sparce. I'm doing the object and table building, rhilker is working on textures. I was going to build it to be angle independent and include 2 backdrops so the user can choose from 2 views, the low wide angle you see above and an overlooking angle like what you had mentioned.
I'm glad you popped in here as paticipants in the workshop are sparce. I was using your stitched together playfueld image and just working on cleaning it up as you can see further back in the thread. I have never built a vp table before and was participating with the main intent on learning and trying to understand the pinmame scripting. I hope you are ok with us using a modified version of your original texture. if not I will try to stitch one together or find some one to redraw it. just let me know your opinion. no one seems very interested in participating in the workshop at this point so I am just slowly working on the table teaching myself as I go.
I appreciate any input you have on this workshop.

[unclewilly]

Since we have a working pf graphic and blueprint, the next logical step would be to start placing objects on the table. If anyone wishes to participate in this process i can upload the table that i am putting the models on. The only models i have done are the main pegs and rubbers.

If no one is interested in this workshop, as noone is really replying to these threads than i will just make the table myself or abandon the project all together and watch in one of the other groups.

Anyone?

[Noah Fentz]

Give Eala a chance to catch up, and I'll take part, too.

Since we know the table, it's time to move on to the next step. I would normally get the PF & blueprint both setup to match and imported, so I could start placing objects.

Do we have objects made yet? If not, check out the last few posts of the 90's workshop. WTiger has the right idea

[unclewilly]

Give Eala a chance to catch up, and I'll take part, too.

Since we know the table, it's time to move on to the next step. I would normally get the PF & blueprint both setup to match and imported, so I could start placing objects.

Do we have objects made yet? If not, check out the last few posts of the 90's workshop. WTiger has the right idea

I have the table with pf texture (semi complete) and blueprint in a previous post. I have The main pegs made and an object for rubbers that i prefer the way it looks. I haven't made the mini pegs yet. I was going to start placing the main large pegs and shaping the rubbers to go around them. Should i be naming the rubbers with switches the name of the switch in the manual?

[EalaDubhSidhe]

Once all the posts are in place, how about building the rubbers using my eight-wall method, built up of straights and curves? Once you have the basic objects, it's not very difficult for anyone to use.

[unclewilly]

Once all the posts are in place, how about building the rubbers using my eight-wall method, built up of straights and curves? Once you have the basic objects, it's not very difficult for anyone to use.

That sounds good. Did you use this method on your version of this table so i can take a look at it?
If not which table can i look at as an example of this method. I was using the method that jp uses in his newer tables using 6 walls and varying the color on the walls to give a sence of shading and depth. I'd like to see your technique as jp's is a little tedious.

[unclewilly]

Ok i changed the viewing angle. Placed all the main pegs and mini pegs, added rubbers. I'm thinking the next logical step is to build the apron or the pop bumpers, and then on to the plastics?
For the plunger i was thinking of using an impulse plunger like i've seen on many of pacdudes tables, where the ball is launched from a trigger and the plunger is animated with drop walls.

[EalaDubhSidhe]

Actually, JP's and mine are pretty much the same kind of technique. If you've already made a start with JP's style of rubbers, you might as well keep going with those.

How intricate does the group want the finished table to be? Would we, for example, want to include fading-style lights? I'm thinking on a similar note that drop-wall GI and plastics lighting would be redundant, as there are no flash bulbs in the game and the only time the GI lights would change would be when the machine is switched on. One playfield base and one plastics layer, plus light layers, would be quite sufficient. GI bulbs, bumper and playfield lights is the kind of thing I do well.

[unclewilly]

I'd like to see the fading lights. I agree about the gi lighting although i would like to know how it's done. I would like to see the bumpers with the drop wall rings to animate the bumper ring, and maybe drop wall targets to animate the targets being hit. The rubbers are pretty much complete, as well as the pegs. Vp9 has an on and off image for lights, i'm not sure how that compares to the fading lights.