118 replies to this topic

[blur]

great job koadic - this is getting better and better!!!

option descriptions are very clear - global options, enable analog nudge, rotation, ...
jolt amount is something like nudge amount, right? lot's of people doesn't know what jolt is, i did not know until i checked dictionary
or better yet nudge force - this is from manual:
"Jolt Amount – increases (multiplies) the nudge force applied to the ball with an accelerometer."
so since you are changing all names to easy ones i'm for name - nudge force maybe in parenthesis (jolt)

what does it mean normal mounting? again manual:
Normal Mounting – assumes the default direction/orientation of the above named PBW controllers.
though it is not clear from the text - normal mounting actually means flip left - right axis, why?
because you can't get flip with rotation, and some people do mount pbw with up side down, and some with up side up

but - this option is covered with axis selection - so i would remove normal mount and rotation since you have it already

next - your sections are button assignments, axis assignments and global options
but what people really want to do - they want to configure buttons, nudge and plunger, so i would make those three sections

i would include checkbox override default pbw button layout into first box - button assignment

then second box - nudge options - first thing to put there is check box enable analog nudge - cause axis don't mean anything if you don't enable analog nudge first
then another option (or it can be last option in this box - just like for pwb button layout) - Use global nudge options - meaning override ALL table options, pbw enable, normal mount, rotation, gain, jolt, dead zone ALL in one check box - much easier to understand and truthfully you want all enabled or all not enabled you will not use one option and not the other cause jolt and gain depend on your hardware not on tables
then axis choice like it is now, only i would put reverse just by the axis choice and gain to the right
and then jolt (nudge force) and dead zone in same line
on the end you can have previously mentioned use global nudge options check box

last third box would be plunger options - but that's another story - what do you think will it be possible to enable it globaly on tables that have plunger object

Edited by blur, 18 April 2012 - 09:49 AM.

[koadic]

great job koadic - this is getting better and better!!!

option descriptions are very clear - global options, enable analog nudge, rotation, ...
jolt amount is something like nudge amount, right? lot's of people doesn't know what jolt is, i did not know until i checked dictionary
or better yet nudge force - this is from manual:
"Jolt Amount – increases (multiplies) the nudge force applied to the ball with an accelerometer."
so since you are changing all names to easy ones i'm for name - nudge force maybe in parenthesis (jolt)

Sounds resonable, either 'Nudge Force (Jolt)' or 'Nudge Strength (Jolt)' or 'insert idea here'.

what does it mean normal mounting? again manual:
Normal Mounting – assumes the default direction/orientation of the above named PBW controllers.
though it is not clear from the text - normal mounting actually means flip left - right axis, why?
because you can't get flip with rotation, and some people do mount pbw with upside down, and some with upside up

but - this option is covered with axis selection - so i would remove normal mount and rotation since you have it already

I decided to include Normal Mounting and PBW Mount Rotation because I made an executive decision to keep the default X/Y assignments for the PBW/Ultracade/Sidewinder, only allowing full axis assignment for the Generic gamepad profile. I felt there wasn't enough justification to enable full reassignment, due to the limited analog axes available for those controllers. If alternative axes are chosen or the Reverse Axis box is checked for X or Y while using those controllers, the changes will be ignored except if the 'disabled' selection is made, so there is a need for global rotation and mounting settings. While there may be differing opinions about how I did this, I gave it plenty of thought and decided this would be the best way to handle it.

next - your sections are button assignments, axis assignments and global options
but what people really want to do - they want to configure buttons, nudge and plunger, so i would make those three sections

i would include checkbox override default pbw button layout into first box - button assignment

I agree with your idea of adding the 'Override' checkbox into the Buttons section. And depending on what else gets added to the Keys menu, I may end up widening the window to show 4 across instead of 3, which will include rearranging the layout a bit, just something to keep in mind is all, it won't effect the functionality.

then second box - nudge options - first thing check box enable analog nudge - cause axis don't mean anything if you don't enable analog nudge first
then another option (or it can be last option in this box - just like for pwb button layout) - Use global nudge options - meaning override ALL table options, pbw enable, normal mount, rotation, gain, jolt, dead zone ALL in one check box - much easier to understand and truthfully you want all enabled all not you will not use one option and not the other cause jolt and gain depend on your hardware not on tables
then axis choice like it is now, only i would put reverse just by the axis choice and gain to the right
and then jolt (nudge force) and dead zone in same line
on the end you can have previously mentioned use global nudge options check box

last third box would be plunger options - but that's another story - what do you think will it be possible to enable it globaly on tables that have plunger object

As far as a section for Plunger goes, I don't see anything being done about the enabling Plunger situation, so the only settings for that would be the axis and axis reversal, which I think is better served being grouped with the other axis assignments. And while the Gain amounts are global options, again I think they are better served being grouped next to the axis they are associated with. I may play around with swapping the location of the reversal checkbox and gain settings to see how it looks though, so that might be changed in the next build, still deciding. And I think keeping all the global options grouped together (minus the gain settings) is the better decision. So, that leaves us with the Axis section and the Global section instead of a Nudge section and Plunger section.

As far as globally enabling/disabling the global settings, or just keeping it as it is currently where you can set each individually, I haven't quite made up my mind yet, let me think about it for a bit. I still plan on adding the DeadZone Slider into the Global section though, just need to mess around with the code a bit more.

And please, if you (or anyone) have any more ideas, feel free to share them.
Just because I may decide to implement some, and not others, doesn't mean I don't appreciate all of the input. I hope some of the above comments help give a little insight into my reasoning, even if you may not share my opinion on implementation.

[blur]

i see, so mount and rotation are necessary because x y axis settings don't apply to pbw
that's ok cause pbw really always uses xy axis

we must think all the time that pbw has to work exactly as it worked before, if not better, and that it must not have less options then other no name gamepads, cause after all we got all the code for analog nudge and plunger in vp from nanotech guys

here is the picture example how it could look like, few boxes more or less, and plunger is hypothetically drawn as if it would have global enable

i made picture before i read the previous post so it's not like i'm pushing any ideas

now when i look at the picture - i think that enable analog nudge and use global settings are redundant - cause enable analog nudge could mean globally enable analog nudge and use global nudge settings - all in one check box
i can't think of any reason why would you globally enable pbw (analog nudge) and not enable other options globally (actually only gain and jolt are important, dead zone is global already)

Attached Files

•  gamepad_menu4.jpg   80.8KB   76 downloads

Edited by blur, 18 April 2012 - 10:03 AM.

[koadic]

i see, so mount and rotation are necessary because x y axis settings don't apply to pbw
that's ok cause pbw really always uses xy axis, what about gain - does it apply if you have pbw?

Yes, the gain applies to the analog X/Y input regardless of the controller being used, but not the plunger axis.

we must think all the time that pbw has to work exactly as it worked before, if not better, and that it must not have less options then other no name gamepads, cause after all we got all the code for analog nudge and plunger in vp from nanotech guys

This is one of the criteria I use when deciding how to implement something. This its why I have left the behavior mostly untouched, except for the ability to reassign buttons and addition of a usable plunger axis (rZ), both of which require the override box to be checked.

here is the picture example how it could look like, few boxes more or less, and plunger is hypothetically drawn as if it would have global enable

I'll keep this handy when organizing the menu for the next build, thanks.

[cupid]

Very nice thread and very good work koadic!

[sleepy]

You got it fixed! All is good.

The Primitive Object is very interesting. It allows for transparent plastics over the ball, like Alpha Ramps, but with polygonal control of the shape.
There is some potential with this behavior.
Are Control Points possible with this Object? Boolean Modeling of two Primitives?

[Noah Fentz]

Great work, koadic!

While you're getting intimately familiar with the nudge routines, can you look into the Tilt Amount and see if you can fix whatever seems to be wrong with it? The setting itself seems to have no effect on tilt sensitivity.

Thank you!

[CPSNine]

Great work, koadic!

While you're getting intimately familiar with the nudge routines, can you look into the Tilt Amount and see if you can fix whatever seems to be wrong with it? The setting itself seems to have no effect on tilt sensitivity.

Thank you!

+1

Using MS sidewinder and never been able to tilt any table even nudging like a mad man with a high accelerometer gain.
People mentioned using a separate tilt bob but never figured this one out either.

[Syco54645]

Great work, koadic!

While you're getting intimately familiar with the nudge routines, can you look into the Tilt Amount and see if you can fix whatever seems to be wrong with it? The setting itself seems to have no effect on tilt sensitivity.

Thank you!

+1

Using MS sidewinder and never been able to tilt any table even nudging like a mad man with a high accelerometer gain.
People mentioned using a separate tilt bob but never figured this one out either.

i have a tilt bob just have not hooked it up yet. this still needs fixed though.

[koadic]

Great work, koadic!

While you're getting intimately familiar with the nudge routines, can you look into the Tilt Amount and see if you can fix whatever seems to be wrong with it? The setting itself seems to have no effect on tilt sensitivity.

Thank you!

Ok, I think what you're asking is a little beyond my abilities, but here's what I gather from what I can see in the code:

As far as Tilt Amount goes, I can see where it is set, a couple pieces of code where it is being called, but I don't actually see it being used for anything that has any effect on the table, except for a reference in some Ultracade stuff.

Tilt Sensitivity on the otherhand is called by the virtual plumb bob (or tilt bob), but that has no user adjustable interface that I can see except for setting via a registry entry to override the preassigned value. The registry key would be in the HKEY_CURRENT_USER->Software->Visual Pinball->Player->TiltSensitivity and is a DWORD with a range from 0 - 1000, with 0 being never tilting and 1000 being always tilted (current value is at 400)

If you want, I can try and link TiltAmount and TiltSensitivity so it can be set from the already available interface (I am sure I can do it, just don't know what possible side effects there might be), or I can add a separate input next to the dead zone input I will be adding the the Keys configuration menu.

Anyway, I wonder if you can mess around with the registry setting and make sure that has the desired effect you are looking for before I go ahead and do anything with it.

[Noah Fentz]

I'll check out the results after I wire this PBW.

Thanks for the info.

[koadic]

Minor update to fix analog X/Y axis issues with the Sidewinder profile - LINK

[Syco54645]

Nvm. It is working now thanks to koadic. Many thanks go out to him.

Been working with koadic to get the digital tilt working. strange stuff. have front tilt working reliably but side to side is nothing... yet.

[luvthatapex]

Can we create new tables in this version? Looks like it is version 9.1.3 with the primitives objects.
I assume its backward compatible if you don't use the primitives?

Nvm. It is working now thanks to koadic. Many thanks go out to him.

Been working with koadic to get the digital tilt working. strange stuff. have front tilt working reliably but side to side is nothing... yet.

[koadic]

I've just labeled it as 913 to differentiate from official 912, this still isn't an official release yet, as I have yet to commit the code (still looking into a few things I want to do first). If you plan on creating tables and releasing them, I would suggest sticking with the official version for creation.

[jpsalas]

Can we create new tables in this version? Looks like it is version 9.1.3 with the primitives objects.
I assume its backward compatible if you don't use the primitives?

I have created all my latest tables with a beta version, it works very well, but I haven't used any new features, like the mass of the ball, which it can be adjusted, so the big ball in CV or in Cueball will be heavier than the small ball. I don't think the 3D primitive is ready. It displays more or less nice, but I think it still needs to be adjusted. The new plunger is also not finished. But the exe file works very well, so you can create tables, test them without problems.

[kiwi]

The primitive objects are really cool , unfortunately they are very hungry for GPU.
Thanks

Max

[jimmyfingers]

If it helps at all I have some experiences with the tilting difficulty / nuances while using a Sidewinder core, which I understand is the same guts as the nanotech and hence why it works on the other versions of VP. I have a mini-cab so there is a fair bit more movement and as such I can actually tilt on the tables using analog nudge. What I've noticed that is with a combination of how light I move my cab around while calibrating the motion sensor of the sidewinder, the resulting force in VP by default will be larger (makes sense as after a lighter range of motion to calibrate - it's compensating). I can then adjust down the gain to make it work relatively well - not too much motion on the ball - while also still having the built-in (seemingly unconfigurable tilt aspect) kick in at a reasonable level if I've finely tuned my calibration process / range of motion.

One big thing I want to point out in my tests is that the "tilt" key / trigger that is generated seemingly behind the scenes from analog input always comes through as a center key tilt. I've tested this extensively and even when shaking left to right, the "hidden" tilt response comes back as some internal triggering of the center tilt key only and never as the left or right (verified with different sounds for each and madly shaking the table). It actually hasn't really hampered the ability to have the tilt working though as long as any analog direction is capable of triggerer at least one tilt response, then it can be managed with the tilt sensitivity (for vpinmame games at least) and everything be balanced out to get decent nudge with actual tilt-ability. One thing I've had to do though so I don't get a double nudge force, is drop the tilt force in the script for the center key (down) section to be about .1 so that nothing is added to the already added direction change from the analog nudge taking place. If you don't do that you'll see the ball move wildly with the analog aspect plus the center key at a "normal" or default table build level.

Not sure if I've explained it that well but hopefully this adds some food for thought / analysis. Thanks koadic for your work on this.

P.S. JP you mentioned the ball weight in the beta version. I use dev5 version a lot as it preserves object names yet can't see where to set the ball mass. What version are you using and where / how do you set the ball mass properties? Thanks in advance.

[koadic]

If it helps at all I have some experiences with the tilting difficulty / nuances while using a Sidewinder core, which I understand is the same guts as the nanotech and hence why it works on the other versions of VP.

Actually, it is only because a controller profile was added for the sidewinder by someone, and it really only allowed the use of the accelerometer for nudging with no other function.


Anyway, have been messing around a bit with some settings and these are my findings so far (and a little background just so I can keep my thoughts straight)...

When you calibrate your controller, you will set the X/Y limits, which I will refer to as an amount of +/- 100 (to compare it to percentages where it is easily relatable to others).

For those that have a cab, when you give it a good nudge, if you only move the joystick/accelerometer (gonna just refer to it as 'the stick' from now on) an amount of 10 (%), then it wont move the ball very far at all. To remedy this without having to mess around with calibration again hoping you get it right, you adjust the gain levels, lets say 200%, so that the 10 it moved actually responds as if it was moved 20 (and so on). This helps get a little more sensitivity out of your controller without recalibrating.

This is where the problem comes in with tilting. Lets say you need to move the stick to an actual amount of 40 to trigger a tilt (the Tilt Sensitivity). The more you raise the gain amount, the more the ball will move, but you still aren't triggering a tilt because you are still only moving the stick an amount of 10. The amount the stick needs to be moved is currently a static amount that isn't adjustable. To top it all off, this really only effects those using analog nudging, as the nudging with the buttons doesn't vary in amount.

If I raise the Tilt Sensitivity amount, I can get it to trigger a tilt when the stick reaches that amount of 10 (or a little higher like 12 if I want). This way, raising the gain amount doesn't negate the ability to tilt the machine. I am pretty sure if I add an interface to set Tilt Sensitivity, then those that are interested can tweak all the settings to the point where it will tilt a little more realistically, but that also opens up the possibility of removing tilting altogether. The other option is to set the sensitivity dynamically based on the gain amount, but you then run the risk of it being off regardless. If anyone has some input to add to this, please do, as I am still not 100% sure it is a good idea to mess around with it, but it is the only option I see of getting it halfway close to how it should be.

[CPSNine]

Seems to me that being able to adjust the Tilt Sensitivity would be a great option it sure gives more flexibility using the accelerometer.

If possible it would be great also to be able to use a separate tilt bob to get the table to trigger tilt warnings (more like in real life) however right now there is no key to map the tilt bob to.
I thought that was what the "mechanical tilt" key was supposed to do but I never got it to work.
So adding a key that would tell the table to send a tilt warning that we could wire to the tilt bob would also somehow be a solution to the problem.