A. There is definitely going to be bounce with any plumb bob or mercury switch type device. Depending on how the table is nudged ie: force (magnitude, direction and frequency), you may get multiple strikes in the same direction or any combination of directions.
The best way to see this is to use any windows program to record keystrokes as you nudge your table experimentally. Excel (spreadsheet) works great for this because you can click on a new cell to record the results of each nudge. Like this:
Keystroke = Result
/ --- Right Nudge
{Space} ---Forward Nudge
Z --- Left Nudge
Experiments and Results (Note these experiments are to help you understand and calibrate the characteristics of your nudge sensing device. This has nothing to do with any of the pinball table software. Experimentation with that should come only after you understand and calibrate what your nudge sensing and input device is doing).
Note: Since I cannot show you a {Space} I will use this for {Space} = "_"
Ideally you should see a single "/", "Z" or "_" appear for a keystrokes
Experiment ( Right Nudge)
Ideal Result: /
Typical Results (from a single point Plumb Bob)
Trial 1: ///
Trial 2: /
Trial 3: ////
etc......
Typical Results (from a special 3 point Plumb Bob/mercury switch or from multiple plumb bobs/switches)
Trial 1: ///
Trial 2: /_/_/
Trial 3: //Z?
etc......
Experiment ( Left Nudge)
Ideal Result: Z
Typical Results (from a single point Plumb Bob)
Trial 1: ZZZ
Trial 2: ZZ
Trial 3:
etc......
Typical Results (from a special 3 point Plumb Bob/mercury switch or from multiple plumb bobs/switches)
Trial 1: ZZZ
Trial 2: Z/Z
Trial 3: Z_/Z
etc......
Experiment ( Forward Nudge)
Ideal Result: "_"
Typical Results (from a special 3 point Plumb Bob/mercury switch or from multiple plumb bobs/switches)
Trial 1: ___
Trial 2: __
Trial 3:
etc......
Typical Results (from a special 3 point Plumb Bob/mercury switch or from multiple plumb bobs/switches)
Trial 1: ZZZ
Trial 2: Z/
Trial 3: Z/_Z/
etc......
The point is that just because you nudge the table physically, this does not automatically translate into a "nudge hit" registering to the software. Experiment with this first to see what your nudge sensing device is actually registering.
On any given nudge, the software may or may not be getting the proper key register. If you are using a plumb bob or mercury switch, more than likely the software is not receiving a perfect input each time you nudge the table.
You can even register right nudges from a left nudge or forward nudge...etc....... This is not a software/physics problem.
With the multiple sensor set ups, you have adjustment capability. Use this up-front experimentation to calibrate what your nudge sensing device is actually registering thru the keyboard emulator.
Physical adjustments:
Mercury switches - Adjust orientation and slope angle
Plumb bobs - Adjust bob height, center ring, tape, etc.....
Try to get as close as possible to the "Ideal Result" by experimenting with actual physical nudges of your table. Perform calibrations of your sensors and try some more.
Do not mess with the software until after you get your nudge sensing and input devices calibrated (NSID's).
QUOTE (blur @ Feb 11 2011, 03:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually i think only 1 config is real - and that is full counter force (100% or hardcore).
But here comes the problem - in vp9 AND fp nudging was one directional and sometimes in wrong directions from the start
(BTW in FP you can fix all nudge directions by tuning physics xml inside the exe but you can't have counter force - only with analog joystick).
So what we have now is two applications that nudge like crazy and people that got used to it and like it.
Since I don't want to take anything from people and since i don't like when someone takes anything from me (like microsoft when he took away menus from office 2007 and internet explorer - i hated that, still hate it and use firefox
) i made default without counter force - no big change and no questions from angry users and we keep peace in house AND you can keep FP and VP nudge almost the same so that you have consistent feel on your cab
But every one that likes it can set counter force to 100 or less (or more)
Or anyone that has trigger happy bulb can increase filter time to more then 200 milisec.
or anyone that likes to nudge hard can set nudge interval to less then one second.
for competitions - i think 2 mods are just enough -
1. defaults
2. hardcore
I don't think each table should be made in 5 versions since that's just too much waste of bandwidth and space, instead you can just have few version of core.vbs and use them whenever you like.
Editing core.vbs is peace of cake - you just find section that begins with:
' set defaults for all tables here or change them from your table script
and change your values like you want them.
You don't have to install autohotkey or compile anything since this is visual basic script and not autohotkey script.
To see what people think i suggest to admins to add poll with options:
1. I would like to add this core.vbs 3.33 to mainstream scripts collection AS IS with above defaults
2. I would negotiate about some defaults and then add it to vbs files
3. I would not put this script in main scripts distribution
Oh, and BTW - please can someone with pinball wizard (exotic, noah) or any analog joystick (rawd, rascal) try if this script affects the PBW in any way (it should not - but just in case).
Best regards
blur
But here comes the problem - in vp9 AND fp nudging was one directional and sometimes in wrong directions from the start
(BTW in FP you can fix all nudge directions by tuning physics xml inside the exe but you can't have counter force - only with analog joystick).
So what we have now is two applications that nudge like crazy and people that got used to it and like it.
Since I don't want to take anything from people and since i don't like when someone takes anything from me (like microsoft when he took away menus from office 2007 and internet explorer - i hated that, still hate it and use firefox
) i made default without counter force - no big change and no questions from angry users and we keep peace in house AND you can keep FP and VP nudge almost the same so that you have consistent feel on your cabBut every one that likes it can set counter force to 100 or less (or more
)Or anyone that has trigger happy bulb can increase filter time to more then 200 milisec.
or anyone that likes to nudge hard can set nudge interval to less then one second.
for competitions - i think 2 mods are just enough -
1. defaults
2. hardcore
I don't think each table should be made in 5 versions since that's just too much waste of bandwidth and space, instead you can just have few version of core.vbs and use them whenever you like.
Editing core.vbs is peace of cake - you just find section that begins with:
' set defaults for all tables here or change them from your table script
and change your values like you want them.
You don't have to install autohotkey or compile anything since this is visual basic script and not autohotkey script.
To see what people think i suggest to admins to add poll with options:
1. I would like to add this core.vbs 3.33 to mainstream scripts collection AS IS with above defaults
2. I would negotiate about some defaults and then add it to vbs files
3. I would not put this script in main scripts distribution
Oh, and BTW - please can someone with pinball wizard (exotic, noah) or any analog joystick (rawd, rascal) try if this script affects the PBW in any way (it should not - but just in case).
Best regards
blur
PART 3 Multuple Sensors on one Table CORE.VBS ver 3.33------------------------------
For the multiple sensors on one table ( I am using a 3 position plumb bob), here is what I found out with the Ver. 3.33 CORE.DBS settings:
NudgeInterval - This is the time interval in milliseconds (ms) beginning immediately after the last nudge is registered at which the table software resets the tilt counter.
Note: The tilt counter is normally set by the value named vpmNudge.sensitivity in the table script. This value represents the number of registered nudges the table will allow before tilting.
With this ver 3.33 CORE.VBS the vpmNudge.sensitivity seems to default to 5 no matter what number you put into the table script.
Example: (NudgeInterval=500) 500 ms = 500/1000 seconds = 0.5 seconds:
As soon as a new ball is loaded, a nudge counter is reset to 0. As soon as a nudge is registered by the computer, a nudge counter is set to 1. Each subsequent nudge that is registered gets added to the nudge counter, 2,3,4.... As soon as the nudge counter hits 5, the table tilts.
The ver 3.33 CORE.VBS allows you to reset this nudge counter to zero after some time internal. This interval is defined by the variable named NudgeInterval.
If the NudgeInterval = 500 then the nudge counter will reset to 0 every 1/2 second (500ms).
Higher values for NudgeInterval will simply wait longer before resetting the nudge counter, so the result is that the player is more likely to cause a tilt the longer he/she plays. The nudge counter will continue to count each nudge until either it is reset (by the NudgeInterval expiring), or it reaches a value of 5, at which time the table is tilted and the nudge counter is reset to zero.
If you do not like this feature, just set the value to 0.
The table will tilt after 5 nudges. Even if you play a ball for 25 minutes and only nudge one time each 5 minutes, you will get tilted.
My Experience - I found the NudgeInterval to work well at about 2000 (2 seconds). This assures a violent player will get tilted, but allows some false nudges and some real nudges, allowing a fair player to nudge occasionally without penalty.
TiempoFiltro - This is the time interval in milliseconds (ms) beginning immediately when the last nudge is registered that all nudge registers will be temporarily ignored or disabled.
Example: (TiempoFiltro=200) 200 ms = 200/1000 seconds = 0.2 seconds:
As soon as a nudge is registered, a timer is started. All nudges will be not register for this interval.
Once the TiempoFiltro time expires, an additional nudge will register.
So if your nudge results in your device sending two or more nudge signals to the computer, they will be ignored for a period of 200 ms after the first nudge is registered.
This is great for stopping the inevitable false and echo nudge signals from causing excessive ball motion. It also stops the any multiple sensors from triggering unwanted counter nudges. It also reduces excessive tilting and "deferred late hit" tilts from what could be a single small nudge
Undoubtedly this is causing much of the "bad physics" that many users experience with nudge.
My experience- With my multi-bob setup, I like this value set at about 3000 (3 seconds). My experiments prove that plumb bobs will bounce for at least 2 seconds even from a small nudge. Also, nudges can send multiple bobs bouncing in all directions causing all sorts of unwanted phantom keystrokes to be sent. Ideally, you only want the initial direction of the nudge to register once time. It is not realistic for an average human to expect to nudge a 300 pound table 3 or 4 times a second. Personally, I rarely nudge more than 2 times in any 3 second period, so I only give up may that second thrust. Other than that, it plays very real at 3000 for the way I play a real table.
Personally - I want to remove all of those unwanted registers that cause the ball to go wacky and make the table tilt 5 seconds after I did the nudge.... I hate that!!!
ReturnTime - This is the time interval in milliseconds (ms) beginning immediately when the last nudge is registered and when the reaction ball motion is initiated (Note: If ReturnPercent = 0, ReturnTime is ignored)
Example: (ReturnTime =100) 100 ms = 100/1000 seconds = 0.1 seconds:
As soon as a nudge is registered, the ball will be moved in the direction of the nudge. After ReturnTime interval a counter motion will be imposed on the ball in the opposite direction equal to the initial force X the value of ReturnPercent .
A right nudge will move the ball to the right, after 200 ms (ReturnTime) the ball will move back to the left some amount equal to ReturnPercent X the initial motion.
My experience - This feature is necessary simply to dampen the exaggerated movement of the ball imposed by the primary software. Without this, even a small nudge results in the ball occasionally moving way beyond reality. My experience with real pinball tables is that you cannot make the ball move that much with a nudge unless it strike something. I like to reflect this reality by setting the ReturnTime = 75 and ReturnPercent = 70.
This dampens the nudge quite a lot and makes the table and ball react as they should..........like heavy objects that have a lot of inertia. The inertia of a stationary object refers to its tendency to remain stationary. Heavy objects like real pinball tables and real pinballs tend to stay put when you bump them around.
ReturnPercent - This is the percentage of the initial nudge force that is applied as a reaction force moving the ball in the opposite direction imposed on the ball by the nudge.
Explanation and example is shown under the ReturnTime above.
Edited by baconcc, 15 March 2011 - 03:19 PM.
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