70 replies to this topic

[pinball buzz]

Try this one Rawd - if the specs any good, maybe email the guy for a shipping quote.
I have used this firm myself, for some switches in the past, no problem.

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...5#ht_3549wt_905

Buzz

[rascal]

Yeah Rawd, I think that slide pot is going to work out real well. You mentioned to me that a 60mm slide pot slides 2.4 inches and you measured the plunger actually pulls back 2.75 inches, so we're off by a little bit, but I think you could make a spacer of .35 inches on the plunger towards the base of the plunger to make the pull stop at 2.4 inches. If the slide pot is physically attached to the plunger, we would want this spacer to help protect the pot from getting damaged. In that 2.75 inches that a plunger pulls back, did you take into consideration the .25 inches that a plunger can be pushed forward with the recoil spring, because that would give us full 3 inches of movement in the plunger (.25 forward and 2.75 back)?

Ok, I just measured my plunger and I got a little different range of travel. My plunger travels a total of 2.875 or 2-7/8" (1/4" forward and 2-5/8" back). So we need a slide pot that travels at least 3 inches or limit the travel of the plunger with a spacer. A spacer of .475 or 19/40 (1/2" would do it). So we would be limiting the plunger by a 1/2" if we went with the 60mm slide basically. I suppose that would be ok. An 80mm of travel pot would be the best if we can find one. You also have to make sure that the taper is linear (starts at 0 and goes to max) and not like a balance control pot where 0 would be the center.

Edited by rascal, 14 January 2011 - 12:00 PM.

[kungfusteve]

Click here First:

http://vpforums.org/..._plunger_a0.gif


Firsly, I thought Id mention that using a slider based pot will probably cause a lot more problems than a round pot.

For one, I do not think they are build as robust, and wont last as long in an absuive situation. But also, I believe
they have to have precise accurate pressure... which wont be easy with a typical Plunger. If the pressures are off a bit, they may cause binding and quicker wear.

Next is pure resistance. A pot based slider will use the mechanical arm setup for leverage.. and reduce friction a Lot... where as a slider may put a lot of drag on the plunger shaft.


So, anyways...heres the 1st iteration of the Pinball Plunger

setup.

This setup uses a typical linear 100k pot that can be purchased at almost any electronics store, such as
RadioShack. You can wire it to an analog joystick, & maybe even the mini-pots in an analog gamepad.

(You could use an arcade 5k pot, if you use a special encoder board that http://www.ultimarc.com sells. Also, instead of hacking a stick... you could use any generic encoder board that support analog pots)


Hows to Assemble

Assy. B = A small block of wood with a hole thru it that fits the Plunger shaft. A loose fit is what you want, so
that when spinning the plugner, it wont spin AssyB.

On the Top view drawing (bottom of picture), you can see #3 is a washer, and behind that #5 (pink) is an E-Clip. You would need to dremmel a small channel for the Eclip to lock into. This clip will keep the washer in place, so that the spring will not put pressure on AssyB.

The is a 2nd E-Clip, which is in front of AssyB, that keeps AssyB from sliding off the Shaft on the farthest end. The
clips should be close but not tight against AssyB. You dont want AssyB sliding too far, but also dont want it so tight
that it will turn when the shaft is rotated. If any mistakes are made, a small washer could be inserted to take up some
gap space.

AssyB Side view: Please note the parts as follows:

B = wood block
2 = Hex Bolt
3 = Washer
4 = Protective Sleeve that fits over the bolts threads.

You might want to grind off the threads on the exposed part of the bolt... so they do not act as a saw and cut things up. In addition, you may also put a plastic sleeve over them, which acts as a barrier, as well as a sort of Bearing to keep things from binding up.

The Two washers will just help to keep the Pot-Lever (assyA), from scraping or getting caught on anything. They
will also help act as a bearing, as they are free-turning.


ASSY.A = The Pot Lever. This can be made out of a metal wire coat-hanger. Simply bend the wire around a bolt or dowel that is the correct diameter that will fit over parts 2 + 4.

Use a mallet if needed to pound it to shape... and or use pliers work it. The bolt (4) should be fairly thin, with a
hex head on the bottom.

Measure the distance needed between the inner edges of the hanger wire, and mark that on part A. Drill 2 small holes at that marking, so that the wire can slide into them. The holes should be a little snug. (use scrap as a test first)

Make sure to loop the wire around part B's bolt before inserting the wires into part A. Might also want to add a
small bit of glue into the holes of part A. If having trouble getting the wires in... use a small bit of soapy
water as lubricant, and a pair of vise grips to help pull them in.

Assy.A will need a 100k Pot that has a "D" shaped end. IF you cant find a D-Pot... you can use a dremmel to Cut half a notch in the pot. The D-Shape helps keep the pot from slipping under pressure.

You then will drill a hole in part A that matches the diameter of the Pot Shaft. This again can be nice and snug.
Take a small dowel, cut it to match the missing part of the Pot shaft. Sand as needed. Test fit to make sure its fairly
snug and fits well. Put a small amt. of glue on the round side of the piece you just made, and put it back in part A to
cure.

An alternate option, is drilling a holes, then screwing in a set-screw or tiny bolt in the side of part A that will hold
the D-pot in place.

And yet another option, is merely to make it permanent, by using epoxy putty. However, you would have to remake the entire Assy.A when the pot goes bad.


When all assys done, you will have to make a shelf for the pot to sit on. AssyA's wire should be level, and not at an
angle. You then will have to adjust the pot & assembly so that it can travel either direction without the wire loop
getting stuck... as well as the pot not hitting its limits internally. Test calibrate it in windows before finalizing
any mounting solutions.

To mount the pot in place, theres a small mounting nut on the pot which you can remove. Make a thin metal mount for it.. such as by bending and cutting a metal ruler.. then use the nut to clamp it down in place. Screw the rules down in the appropriate place.

Hopefully the resultion will be adequate for windows. If not, a gearing and or 3 bar system might have to be put in
place to change the ratios.


This design has not been tested... but should work just fine.

Have fun,

Xiaou2 / Kungfusteve

http://vpforums.org/..._plunger_a0.gif

Edited by kungfusteve, 23 January 2011 - 08:52 PM.

[Rawd]

This is brilliant KungfuSteve! In all my time spent thinking of this, that design had never crossed my mind. I am having a heck of a time finding a slider pot around here anyways, so now I have something new to try. Thanks alot for the ideas!

[kungfusteve]

This is brilliant KungfuSteve! In all my time spent thinking of this, that design had never crossed my mind. I am having a heck of a time finding a slider pot around here anyways, so now I have something new to try. Thanks alot for the ideas!

Thanks

Heres another Revision which uses gears. Which might be needed it the resolution isnt high enough.

You can get a nice set of green gears at most hobby shops. I found a nice set at

http://www2.stevenshobby.com:5641/
SVM-MR8

http://vpforums.org/...l_plunger_b.gif

[rascal]

This is brilliant KungfuSteve! In all my time spent thinking of this, that design had never crossed my mind. I am having a heck of a time finding a slider pot around here anyways, so now I have something new to try. Thanks alot for the ideas!

Thanks

Heres another Revision which uses gears. Which might be needed it the resolution isnt high enough.

You can get a nice set of green gears at most hobby shops. I found a nice set at

http://www2.stevenshobby.com:5641/
SVM-MR8

http://vpforums.org/...l_plunger_b.gif

I like both your ideas, but the reason for the slide pot was to keep it more compact. Especially in a mini-cab where there isn't a lot of room. I wish they made single axis controller boards too, that way this could be one single USB unit. A USB plunger.

[rcadefrk]

any plans on this working for vp8.1? Noticed my controller is fully working with 9.12. Only partially works on 8.1. No name dual shock ps2 controller. Most of my tables are for vp8, so it would be great to get it working.

Edited by rcadefrk, 05 April 2011 - 07:41 AM.

[kungfusteve]

[/quote]
I like both your ideas, but the reason for the slide pot was to keep it more compact. Especially in a mini-cab where there isn't a lot of room. I wish they made single axis controller boards too, that way this could be one single USB unit. A USB plunger.
[/quote]

Sorry, but mechanically, I highly doubt a slide pot will hold up to the rigors of a plunger. They are not really built for such applications... and the smallest tolerances of misalignment, will cause the thing to wear and fail in a very short time.

They also usually do not have very high resolution. Which is why arcade controls use gearing to maximize resolution and thus smooth control.


I used to Manage an Arcade, & Fixed arcade and pinball machines for 3 yrs, at a busy location. Ive seen just about every type of mechanical contraption, how long they lasted, and what it too to fix them. Arcade controllers went through extensive abuse-testing, and were designed by mechanical engineers. Many of the well designed controllers would last countless man hours worth of use and abuse... before any repairs were needed. Mostly the only thing wrong was a worn pot at maybe year 5. By comparison, a typical PC flight stick wouldnt last a week in an arcade.


I cant recall "Any" slide pots being used commercially, even though it might have saved space, weight and complexity. They just wouldnt hold up to abuses... which is why they are pretty much only used on things like mixing boards... which are very 'light' duty.

The only other option is Optical... however, Optical was used only minimally, due to increased costs, as well as failing + dirty optics. Even optical solutions used gearing. Optos in pinballs are merely used as on/off switches where normal ones cant fit, or unidirectional is needed. Optical for tracking precise analog movement, isnt so hot in a machine that gets bumped around a lot.. Plus, optical tracking isnt easy to make a calibration setup.


Finally, analog tracking should be done based on actual timed/measured velocity. Not mere distance. For example, you could slowly ease the plunger back to the start position... and the ball would never bounce up the rail at all. In a real machine, you can even slam the plunger forwards by hand. This motion could easily generate a huge amount of speed for the ball... but in its current measurement of distance alone... it either wont register at all... or wont make the ball move very far, cause you only really moved the plunger 3/4 an inch (even though it was at a speed of mach 5)

[Dazz]

I currently use an optical switch for my plunger. Unfortunately I can't fine adjust the plunger as it's only an on/off signal like a physical switch. I have the optical sensor focused on the tip of my plunger, when pulled back the switch activates and pulls the plunger back on screen. Once the tip is back in front of the sensor it closes the circuit and the ball is shot.

I really have no clue about this kind of stuff and what's possible or not. Hell I don't even know enough about circuits to be able to build another optical circuit using newer replacement parts. So, this idea may be totally way off or not possible at all. I have an idea is sortta long the lines of my current optical switch. Using a small laser or some kind of optic that would be either attached to the tip of the plunger or to a stationary location an inch or two from the tip of the plunger. Perhaps the laser/optic could just be focused on the tip end of the plunger (reflective metal) this way there is nothing attached to the plunger that would impede full plunger movement. The laser/optic would then be focused on a sensor that would measure the velocity and distance that the plunger is pulled. Of course this would then need to be interfaced with the PC for output.


 plunger_resting.png   5.71KB   89 downloads

 plunger_pulled.png   5.55KB   50 downloads

To me it sounds like something like this might be possible given the proper knowledge of the electronics aspect.

Edited by Dazz, 12 April 2011 - 08:29 AM.

[kungfusteve]

I currently use an optical switch for my plunger. Unfortunately I can't fine adjust the plunger as it's only an on/off signal like a physical switch. I have the optical sensor focused on the tip of my plunger, when pulled back the switch activates and pulls the plunger back on screen. Once the tip is back in front of the sensor it closes the circuit and the ball is shot.

I really have no clue about this kind of stuff and what's possible or not. Hell I don't even know enough about circuits to be able to build another optical circuit using newer replacement parts. So, this idea may be totally way off or not possible at all. I have an idea is sortta long the lines of my current optical switch. Using a small laser or some kind of optic that would be either attached to the tip of the plunger or to a stationary location an inch or two from the tip of the plunger. Perhaps the laser/optic could just be focused on the tip end of the plunger (reflective metal) this way there is nothing attached to the plunger that would impede full plunger movement. The laser/optic would then be focused on a sensor that would measure the velocity and distance that the plunger is pulled. Of course this would then need to be interfaced with the PC for output.


 plunger_resting.png   5.71KB   89 downloads

 plunger_pulled.png   5.55KB   50 downloads

To me it sounds like something like this might be possible given the proper knowledge of the electronics aspect.

That Might be how the current design of David Foleys sensor works. Not sure. But from what Ive heard is that not only are his devices expensive... but they are made so poorly that they are dead in like less than a year.. with no refunds/returns..etc.

I believe hes in court for theft and fraud also. Not related to the pin stuff, but related to how shady his character is.
So hypocritical, preaching about how others are stealing ancient IP's of past game roms, and yet all the while was doing it himself...and to people who were still in business.

He also managed to sucker a bunch of poor people in other countries to think that if they did all kinds of free work on pinball tables... that they would eventually get kickbacks from future competitions. (that Will """NEVER""" happen! )
Hes an A-Class piece of Trash. Morally Bankrupt.


A pot based solution is cheap, fairly easy to build, Cheap as dirt (especially if you hack a cheap analog joystick), very durable / long lasting. No expensive custom encoders to fail either.


Optical based solutions are much more expensive, and much more prone to failures.

[ynneBBenny]

Infinately Variable Plunger Laser Mouse Hack

The answer is infront of us all. I have been trying for years to get someone to notice. All it will take is a small bit of coding in VP to implement it.
I still say this is the cheapest and easiest option that is "off the shelf" achievable for anyone.
It is also infinately variable, and solid state (other than the plunger itself) .

If this option was programmed into VP, then anyone could make one from their home.

Does the concept picture make sense?

Attached Files

•  Laser_plunger.jpg   86.07KB   103 downloads

Edited by WWW, 02 July 2011 - 11:53 AM.

[rascal]

Infinately Variable Plunger Laser Mouse Hack

The answer is infront of us all. I have been trying for years to get someone to notice. All it will take is a small bit of coding in VP to implement it.
I still say this is the cheapest and easiest option that is "off the shelf" achievable for anyone.
It is also infinately variable, and solid state (other than the plunger itself) .

If this option was programmed into VP, then anyone could make one from their home.

Does the picture make sense?

I tried using a optical mouse. The problem is the spring on the plunger. Even though the plunger rod moves almost 3" when pulling back, the spring surrounding the rod throws off the optics, as it is just compressing and not really moving with the rod. I even mounted a small plate to the plunger that would ride on the mouse optics with little success. Here is a couple of pictures of the rough rig I had.




The best results so far have been with a joystick axis. It works really well as you can see in Rawd's videos. The Nanotech plunger uses an optic eye, but translates to a Z axis value. So the coding is already implemented in VP for that method, it just a mater of adding more controllers to the list of controllers that VP recognizes.

Cupid mentioned to me that he was going to work on the input section of the VP code to allow Windows detected joysticks/controllers and mouse input. To be able to configure these devices to VP settings. I've been holding off on any further experiments in hope that he will add this feature to VP. To be able to plug-n-play any joystick/controller/mouse that Windows detects would be the way to go. Then we can continue to get creative with our plunger rigs.

Haven't seen Cupid lately. Where ya at buddy? What are you up to?

[ynneBBenny]

Here are two possible options to solve the spring issue.

EDIT: I re read your post. Yes you did use a plate. Wasnt it close enough?


Talking with my EE mate. He suggested two beam breaking diode setups. The time taken to break each beam when the plunger is released, determines how hard the plunger launches the ball. Not an off the shelf option though.

Attached Files

•  plunger.jpg   49.22KB   54 downloads

Edited by WWW, 02 July 2011 - 12:19 PM.

[rascal]

Here are two possible options to solve the spring issue.

My rig above is similar to your second image with the plate if you look closely (I roughed up the underside of the plate for the mouse to be able to register off it). Another issue with the mouse read, is that it translates to a position on screen (x and y), not just a simple value. When if reaches the boundries of the screen, it stops registering. This is the way Windows see the mouse and translates it. So unless you center the mouse pointer in the center of the screen after each launch, it runs out of bounds and stops registering. Much like when you have to lift the mouse sometimes when you are using the mouse for normal operation.

Beleive me, I thought it was a great idea too, that's why I made that test rig, but it didn't work out as well as a joystick analog axis. I even tried a scrollwheel.

But if you want to experiment more with it, you could download the plugin program that I wrote, it will display the output for the mouse and a joystick to the screen.
http://www.vpforums....a...ost&id=6375

Edit: I'm in the chat room right now, if you want to talk about it.
http://vpforums.org/VPFChat/

Edited by rascal, 02 July 2011 - 12:37 PM.

[ynneBBenny]

YEs I will have a look at your program.
One further thought. On the first concept drawing there is a micro switch at the end of the plunger. This not only says "Launche the ball", but also zeros the plunger position each time. This solves the creep issue.
The way In see the program as working is. As the plunger is pulled back it gives a numeric value to VP. When the micro switch is hit, VP says what was the highest numeric value that the mouse registered? Ok Ill hit the ball at that speed.

[bladexdsl]

here's an idea i used with my mx1100 mouse it works pretty good too might be a pain to mount though.

[Dazz]

here's an idea i used with my mx1100 mouse it works pretty good too might be a pain to mount though.

It looks like you are missing the point. Your images are of just another on/off idea. We are working on possible solutions that would allow a person to have full controlled movement of the plunger. Perhaps turning your mouse and roll the scroll wheel using the plunger to scroll with.

[rascal]

The way In see the program as working is. As the plunger is pulled back it gives a numeric value to VP. When the micro switch is hit, VP says what was the highest numeric value that the mouse registered? Ok Ill hit the ball at that speed.

Problem with that, is you may pull the plunger say all the way back and then slowly move it forward before releasing, so capturing the highest value would make it 100% in this case. The virtual plunger has a collision force, so there is no need for the button on the end (if the virtual plunger moves fast the collision force is greater). When the virtual plunger collides with the ball, the ball gets the force, so the object here is to move the plunger realistically and then release.

The code for the Z axis is already being used with the Nanotech plunger. We only need VP to detect other controllers besides the PBW. Now we can continue to hard code the controllers into the source code, one at a time by name, or make it so that all Windows detected controller are seen by VP. Then an interface to assign the controllers available buttons, analog sticks, slidders, povs, etc... needs to be added and settings saved. Similar to FP's configuration of controllers.

This version of VP that we are building off of was for Nanotech's cab. The code was written to only detect their controller. That should be rewritten to allow for any detectable controller or even a mouse.

[Rawd]

Thanks for bringing this thread back to life. I kind of lost interest in this when I couldn't find a slider pot locally. I am going to look more into this again. Thanks for everything you are doing Rascal.

Edited by Rawd, 02 July 2011 - 05:21 PM.

[rascal]

Thanks for bringing this thread back to life. I kind of lost interest in this when I couldn't find a slider pot locally. I am going to look more into this again. Thanks for everything you are doing Rascal.

Problem is, I have to get this far on my mini cab to really get serious.