1103 replies to this topic

[mrjoin3r]

Thanks for the reply mjr. Will have a look at alternatives now I have a better understanding of what to look for.

[yagesz]

What broke?

My Expansion board won't trip the circuit for the knocker or strobe?
 

12v & 5v are both going into the board. I have 15 wires hooked up for RGBs to the flasher circuit and they all work fine. 

I had managed to blow a fuse on my PSU breakout board on the 12v line. Had a motor hooked up without a diode. Stupid me. Do I need to do anything other than a diode

Edited by yagesz, 17 December 2017 - 01:47 AM.

[mjr]

I had managed to blow a fuse on my PSU breakout board on the 12v line. Had a motor hooked up without a diode. Stupid me. Do I need to do anything other than a diode

 

The diode is what you need.  Be sure to use one with anything magnetic - gear motors, shaker motors, knockers, solenoids, pinball coils, contactors, relays, anything like that.

 

 

What broke?

My Expansion board won't trip the circuit for the knocker or strobe?
 

12v & 5v are both going into the board. I have 15 wires hooked up for RGBs to the flasher circuit and they all work fine. 

 

If the flashers are working, then at least the logic circuitry probably isn't affected.  The knocker and strobe are pretty much completely separate circuits, though, so I think you probably have two separate parts that got damaged.  

 

Assuming this is related to the blown fuse on the 12V PSU and not just complete coincidence, my guess is that parts connected to the 12V input were the ones affected.  That would make the optos likely culprits - the PC817 labeled OK5 for the knocker, and the PC847 labeled OK4 for the strobe.  It could also be something attached downstream to one of those.

 

If you have a voltmeter and can take some careful measurements with the power on, I'd probably start by looking at pin 3 on OK5 to see what it's doing when you switch the knocker and on off.  It should be close to 0V when the knocker output is turned off, and then should pop up to about 11.5V when the knocker is on.  The knocker has the timer that limits it to a couple of seconds of on time, so you'll only see the voltage increase briefly, but you should be able to repeat it.  You can use the "Output Tester" in the Pinscape config tool to exercise the output.

 

If the PC817 is doing the right thing there, that would indicate that the MOSFET is probably the problem.  If not, either the PC817 is bad or something feeding into it is bad.  I can help you track down which it is once you know where things stand with the PC817 output.

[yagesz]

I had managed to blow a fuse on my PSU breakout board on the 12v line. Had a motor hooked up without a diode. Stupid me. Do I need to do anything other than a diode

 
The diode is what you need.  Be sure to use one with anything magnetic - gear motors, shaker motors, knockers, solenoids, pinball coils, contactors, relays, anything like that.
 
 

What broke?

My Expansion board won't trip the circuit for the knocker or strobe?
 
12v & 5v are both going into the board. I have 15 wires hooked up for RGBs to the flasher circuit and they all work fine. 

 
If the flashers are working, then at least the logic circuitry probably isn't affected.  The knocker and strobe are pretty much completely separate circuits, though, so I think you probably have two separate parts that got damaged.  
 
Assuming this is related to the blown fuse on the 12V PSU and not just complete coincidence, my guess is that parts connected to the 12V input were the ones affected.  That would make the optos likely culprits - the PC817 labeled OK5 for the knocker, and the PC847 labeled OK4 for the strobe.  It could also be something attached downstream to one of those.
 
If you have a voltmeter and can take some careful measurements with the power on, I'd probably start by looking at pin 3 on OK5 to see what it's doing when you switch the knocker and on off.  It should be close to 0V when the knocker output is turned off, and then should pop up to about 11.5V when the knocker is on.  The knocker has the timer that limits it to a couple of seconds of on time, so you'll only see the voltage increase briefly, but you should be able to repeat it.  You can use the "Output Tester" in the Pinscape config tool to exercise the output.
 
If the PC817 is doing the right thing there, that would indicate that the MOSFET is probably the problem.  If not, either the PC817 is bad or something feeding into it is bad.  I can help you track down which it is once you know where things stand with the PC817 output.

I will run through the circuit when I am home. Lucky me I have a chime board as a backup unit if i Need it.

[mjr]

 

I will run through the circuit when I am home. Lucky me I have a chime board as a backup unit if i Need it.

 

That's good!  If all else fails you can just switch the knocker over there - each chime output is exactly like the main board knocker output, so it's a perfectly good substitution if you're not using all of those chime outputs already.

 

And if you have a power board with a free output, you can always move the strobe over there.

[yagesz]

Do I need anything besides

12v >>> +side diode >>> motor >>> neg side diode >>> pinscape

Fuses anything like that.


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[mjr]

12v >>> +side diode >>> motor >>> neg side diode >>> pinscape

 

Careful!!!  That's actually backwards for the diode polarity.

 

It's a bit confusing, but diodes for this use case have to be installed with "reverse polarity" from the way you'd use them in other circuits.

 

See: http://mjrnet.org/pi....php?sid=diodes

 

 

Do I need anything besides [diodes]
Fuses anything like that.

 

Well, I always think fuses are a good idea, because they can protect other parts against damage in certain situations.  Fuses protect against excessive current (amps), so their function is primarily to protect against short circuits and overloads. 

 

I like to fuse all of the outputs, but it's really overkill for things like LEDs and lamps, because there's essentially no way the device itself is ever going to cause an overload.  A fuse would only be there to protect against less likely kinds of faults, such as short-circuits in the wiring, or (my favorite example) accidentally dropping a screwdriver into the cab while the power is on.
 

But motors are really good things to fuse.  Reason: the current draw of a motor is dependent on the mechanical load on the motor.  That means the motor could under some conditions draw a lot more current than it normally does, so you don't necessarily need one of those unlikely faults to trigger an overload.  

 

More here:  http://mjrnet.org/pi...e.php?sid=fuses

Edited by mjr, 17 December 2017 - 08:52 PM.

[yagesz]

Stripe goes to 12v line I know.

Is there a recommended fuse size? My atx breakout board that is wired to my spare psu has 5v fuses directly out of the outputs. Will these save me?


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[mjr]

Is there a recommended fuse size? My atx breakout board that is wired to my spare psu has 5v fuses directly out of the outputs. Will these save me?

 

Those fuses are probably sized to protect the power supply, so they probably aren't offering much protection for the expansion boards.

 

The fuse chapter has recommendations - http://mjrnet.org/pi...e.php?sid=fuses

[DKong]

Hey mjr, 

I am reading up on your plunger/nudge controller solution and am quite interested (although a bit confused). I had a separate question, but your PM box is full. Any chance you could free some space in your inbox for a question? Thanks.

[mjr]

Hi - I cleared out some old messages, so you should be able to PM me.

[Onevox]

Looking to expand Pinscape's capabilities, with LED strips (rectangles around the perimeters)  lighting under my cab and on the back of my backbox. I'm wondering how to hook up with just the Main board. Has this been covered in the the threads somewhere? I'm also considering sound activated lighting as a possibility.

 

thanks.

[mjr]

Looking to expand Pinscape's capabilities, with LED strips (rectangles around the perimeters)  lighting under my cab and on the back of my backbox. I'm wondering how to hook up with just the Main board.

 

You'd normally run the strips off the power board, since they're fairly current-hungry.  If you do that they work like anything else, where you feed the +12V supply to the +12V terminal on the strips, and connect the R, G, and B terminals on the strips to one power board port apiece.  It's best to select contiguous ports (say, 10, 11, 12) because the DOF configurator requires the components of an RGB device to be grouped like that.

 

There aren't any ports on the main board that will drive these strips directly because of the high current requirements.  However, you can get one of those cheap eBay LED strip amplifiers (they go for about $1 apiece the last I looked), and control that with one of the "small LED" ports if you're not using all of those.  You connect the strip itself to the amplifier (it more or less just plugs in), you connect the amp's power connections to 12V and ground, and you connect the amp's three control lines to three "small LED" ports.  Again, you want to group them for the config tool's sake.

 

The LED amps are good for 4A per chanel, same as the power board.  I think that'll support about 3m of the strips, which should be enough for your purposes.

[proudx]

I have been trying to troubleshoot erratic right flipper Behavior. Sometimes during gameplay the right flipped sticks in the up position. Sometimes the right flipper fires on and off randomly or doesn't respond to key for a moment. I have started troubleshooting by pausing my sanszmart dof output using provided software so no solitonids fire but I still was able t observe my right flipper sticking even with the program paused. What steps should I take next to determine if it's the leaf switch or the pinscape controller or possibly ground noise?

[mjr]

I have been trying to troubleshoot erratic right flipper Behavior. Sometimes during gameplay the right flipped sticks in the up position. Sometimes the right flipper fires on and off randomly or doesn't respond to key for a moment. I have started troubleshooting by pausing my sanszmart dof output using provided software so no solitonids fire but I still was able t observe my right flipper sticking even with the program paused. What steps should I take next to determine if it's the leaf switch or the pinscape controller or possibly ground noise?

 

Is it ONLY the right flipper that does this?  If so, I'd say that largely rules out electrical noise issues right there, because if you had noise issues they really should affect all inputs pretty equally.  That means it's probably either the switch hardware, or a software problem somewhere on the PC.

 

What I'd do is shut down VP and everything else, and use the config tool Button Tester to observe the button input.  Press the button and watch the on-screen indication to see if it's tracking the button state properly.  If you don't see any sticking there, it's a good bet the switch itself and the wiring to the controller are good.  Which leaves a software problem.

 

You do have Sticky Keys turned off in your Windows settings, don't you?

[proudx]

Yeah sticky keys is off and I'm using joystick input rather than keyboard input. Button 6 for right flipper. The problem is it only happens about every 30 to 90 minutes so extremely intermediate it would be hard to see the behavior outside vp. It's a frustrating problem to track down for sure.

Since I have a connection block I thought I could try wiring the right flipper to the current left flipper key 1 and the right flipper to the current right flipper key 6 and reconfigure the flippers in vp. If the left flipper starts sticking then it would be the pinscape board input 6. However if the right flipper continues to stick then it's not the pinscape board and either the right flipper hardware or the wiring to it from the connection block?

Edited by proudx, 30 December 2017 - 11:29 PM.

[mjr]

The problem is it only happens about every 30 to 90 minutes so extremely intermediate it would be hard to see the behavior outside vp. It's a frustrating problem to track down for sure.

 

Yeah, those are the worst.

 

 

 

Since I have a connection block I thought I could try wiring the right flipper to the current left flipper key 1 and the right flipper to the current right flipper key 6 and reconfigure the flippers in vp. If the left flipper starts sticking then it would be the pinscape board input 6. However if the right flipper continues to stick then it's not the pinscape board and either the right flipper hardware or the wiring to it from the connection block?

 

That sounds like a good plan.  

 

When the problem occurs, is it a one-shot glitch, or does it stay repeatable for a while?  If it stays repeatable for any amount of time, another thing you could do is immediately test it with regular keyboard input as soon as you see the problem.  You can leave the VP keyboard settings in place even if you're using the joystick, so you can leave the right flipper assigned to Right Shift as well as the joystick button.  When the problem starts happening, try the Right Shift key and see if it happens with that as well.  If it does, that would eliminate all of the hardware as a cause.

[proudx]

The problem is it only happens about every 30 to 90 minutes so extremely intermediate it would be hard to see the behavior outside vp. It's a frustrating problem to track down for sure.

 
Yeah, those are the worst.
 
 
 

Since I have a connection block I thought I could try wiring the right flipper to the current left flipper key 1 and the right flipper to the current right flipper key 6 and reconfigure the flippers in vp. If the left flipper starts sticking then it would be the pinscape board input 6. However if the right flipper continues to stick then it's not the pinscape board and either the right flipper hardware or the wiring to it from the connection block?

 
That sounds like a good plan.  
 
When the problem occurs, is it a one-shot glitch, or does it stay repeatable for a while?  If it stays repeatable for any amount of time, another thing you could do is immediately test it with regular keyboard input as soon as you see the problem.  You can leave the VP keyboard settings in place even if you're using the joystick, so you can leave the right flipper assigned to Right Shift as well as the joystick button.  When the problem starts happening, try the Right Shift key and see if it happens with that as well.  If it does, that would eliminate all of the hardware as a cause.

To answer when it happens it doesn't stay repeatable for a while.

So an update. I reversed the left and right flipper wiring to the connection terminal block as suggested Above to determine if problem is with the pinscape controller or the right flippers button hardware/wiring to terminal block. Interestingly enough not only does the left flipper not exhibit the random erratic flipper or flipper sticking but the original right flippers is not exhibiting the behavior anymore. So this means the pinscape controller wiring was good but I'm puzzled as to why the right flipper stopped exhibiting the erratic flipper and at times sticking behavior. this has me a bit puzzled.

Was simply moving the right flipper wiring to the terminal connection block port 1 from 6 exposing that perhaps original wiring to it was lose? I could understand how a lose wire to the connection block could cause the right flipper to not respond at times but would a lose connection cause the flipper to stick upright in the closed position or randomly fire?

I have done about 6 hours of testing over a week so not conclusive yet but certainly looks promising.

[mjr]

So an update. I reversed the left and right flipper wiring to the connection terminal block as suggested Above to determine if problem is with the pinscape controller or the right flippers button hardware/wiring to terminal block. Interestingly enough not only does the left flipper not exhibit the random erratic flipper or flipper sticking but the original right flippers is not exhibiting the behavior anymore. So this means the pinscape controller wiring was good but I'm puzzled as to why the right flipper stopped exhibiting the erratic flipper and at times sticking behavior. this has me a bit puzzled.

 

I agree, that is pretty mysterious.  The fact that messing with the wires changed the behavior at least seems to point to the wiring as the locus of the problem.  The problem was that the button stuck "on", and the "on" state happens electrically when the input is connected to ground, so maybe you had an intermittent ground short somewhere.  Maybe you had a tiny strand of loose wire somewhere in the vicinity of the screw terminal, or something like that.  I don't know what kind of wire you're using, but if it's the "stranded" type, that can sometimes fray at the end - especially if you're screw terminals, since a frayed strand can go sideways instead of into the terminal.  Those little strands can be almost invisible but they can make mischief, especially with low-power logic circuits like this where all it takes is the lightest stray contact.

[yagesz]

@MJR

 

Why would my pinscape freeze during shaker motor?  When I test in the app the slider will jump. its not fluid. When I play a table it will freeze and drop the ball everytime?