918 replies to this topic

[ravarcade]

BAM Update!

v0.9-37

http://ravarcade.pl/...BAM_v0.9-37.ZIP

 

change log:

- Snapshots are now taken after postprocessing. On snapshot now will be visible BAM menu (if enabled) and effects of Stereo 3D.

 

- Support for tracking 2 IR-LEDs:

Image line between eyes. BAM assumed that this line is parallel to the edge of the table. If You ratate head, it will break feel of 3D. 

Now You can mount 2 led on glasses, and BAM will use this lina, as line between eyes.

This way feel of 3D i a little bit closer to pefection.

 

- New IR dots tracking. With single led BAM will chose closer point to previous location. Also it will assume, than tracked point can't move faster than 100 inches/sec (2.5m/sec). It will prevent move of cam if led will "blink". Also BAM will ignore some false detected points. (If will better handle of reflections on light visible only by one camera).

For 2 leds tracking, it will assume, than distance between leds is smaller than 13 inches (35cm). It will prevent of creating "eyes line" between one IR-LED and some false detected point (light).

 

Speed limit & maximum dist between LED hide. If You want to tweak it, let me know.

 

- Small changes in menu:

1. Cam move smoothering options are moved to "Player Tracking" submenu ("Config->Player Tracking")

2. In this menu You can also change num of tracked IR-LEDs (one or two).

3. If You use 2 leds on glasse You will be also able to choose between cam position in non Stereo 3D modes: left Eye / Center / right Eye

 

Tracking for 2 Eyes is also enabled for Kinect.

 

[mitchelwb]

I'm assuming this is two LED tracking for the PS3 Eyes?  If so, awesome!  I was hoping once you got done playing with 3D tv's you'd do this!  Bravo!

[ravarcade]

I'm assuming this is two LED tracking for the PS3 Eyes?  If so, awesome!  I was hoping once you got done playing with 3D tv's you'd do this!  Bravo!

It should work with wiimotes too. 

[dejanne]

hey ravarcade, do you need the ps3 cam also for the stereo 3d or just the glasses or both? and where can you buy those anachrome glasses?

[ravarcade]

hey ravarcade, do you need the ps3 cam also for the stereo 3d or just the glasses or both? and where can you buy those anachrome glasses?

Head Tracking (with PS3 cams) and Stereo 3D is independent. You can use Stere3D in Static CAM  or HappyCab mode. (if You set position of cam right, feel of 3d is realy greate).

 

Anachrome glasses are very cheap. You will find it added for news papper. One pair i found with beer

 

----------------------------------

I have request to users with access to plasma 3d tv with shutter glasses. Please do small test for me. Rotate glasses 90 deg and let me know if image is bright. 

Today i tested lcd 3d monitor and image thru rotated glasses was very dark. This is lcd  display problem. You don't have to enable 3D. 

[Slydog43]

yeah my LCD goes black when I were "Normal" shutter glasses, I had to take 2 pairs and glue them together inorder for the playfield to be nice and bright. 

 

this was a pic before tv was routed into my cab.  They work great and 3D pinball is awesome to show off to people.  Don't really play that way, but it really is amazing.

 

Edited by Slydog43, 09 July 2013 - 04:35 AM.

[ravarcade]

yeah my LCD goes black when I were "Normal" shutter glasses, I had to take 2 pairs and glue them together inorder for the playfield to be nice and bright. 

 

this was a pic before tv was routed into my cab.  They work great and 3D pinball is awesome to show off to people.  Don't really play that way, but it really is amazing.

 

Hi

You probly found best solution.

It looks You have passive 3d tv. So You use simple passive glasses. All You need to rotate filters, like You did by using two pair of glasses.

There are cheap passive glasses made of paper. You can tear paper glasses, rotate a filters and glue it back. This way You will get passive glasses compatible with 3D TV in portrair.

Let me know if view angle is not problem with this solution.

 

I think this is best possible solution to get Stereo 3D in portrait TV.

 

I probly use that solution when i will build my pinball cab.

 

---

 

More about active shutter glasses.

 

I did some test my shutter glasses..They have polarize filter. Then i rotate it 90 deg picture on my monitor is black. I looked at other TV and picture get black if i rotate it 45 deg clockwise (rotated 45 counterclockwise i have brightest image). So not all screens have same polarization. All that is visible without any 3D. Glasses with polarize filter have better separation of left/right image (crosstalk).

 

I know, that sony have glasses without polarization, but that glasses give lower quality image (more crosstalk) - so they are not good choice.

 

Plasma 3d TV. On plasma TV there is no polarization so any shutter glasses should work (If some one can test it please let know). I think that with plasma TV there will be a lot of "crosstalk" so this may be bad choice again. Plasma display are hevy and produce a lot of heat - again bad choice.

 

Let say producent "A" make active 3D TV with "vertical" polarization and producent "B" with "horizontal". If You switch glasses: use glasses from "A" on TV "B" and vice versa, You can get good Stereo 3D in portriar TV orientation. I don't know if there is any producer with polarization rotated 90 deg, and they can use diffrent way to sync glasses. So probly there is no hoop to use Stereo 3D with active shutter glasses in portriat TV.

[toxie]

you can also look here: http://www.vpforums....showtopic=21658

there i also already did some research on the glasses vs. TV topic when i added 3D stereo conversion to VP last year..

 

and slydog btw did this with active glasses, as there you cannot rip apart the glasses without screwing up the electronics..

 

as for viewing angle: this was the least of the problems i experienced, there is more of an issue (with passive TVs) when you move your head around due to the polarization..

[ravarcade]

you can also look here: http://www.vpforums....showtopic=21658

there i also already did some research on the glasses vs. TV topic when i added 3D stereo conversion to VP last year..

 

and slydog btw did this with active glasses, as there you cannot rip apart the glasses without screwing up the electronics..

 

as for viewing angle: this was the least of the problems i experienced, there is more of an issue (with passive TVs) when you move your head around due to the polarization..

Thanks for info.

 

If i understed it right now Stereo 3d / TV is.

1. Passive glasses - it is better with linear polarization than circular on glasses. Circular polarization then player is close to screen create a lot of ghostin on some parts of sceen. I think You can buy filters (without glasses).

2. Shutter glasses - because of polarization, they don't work (whole or part of image is dark) . You have to "break" glasses to rotate lenses.

 

Did anyone try sony active glasses? They are without polarization filters, and mayby they will work better. I know, that sony sells polariation filters for this glasses. Mayby You can install this filter rotated 90 deg to get picture without ghosting?

 

Qustion to Toxie:

Did You get only SBS  3D or did You get full 1920x1080 x 120Hz.?

Did You add anaglyph mode to VP? 

If I saw VP with Stereo 3D in January, probably i wouldn't start work on BAM

 

I have working BAM with full res 1920 x 1080 x 120Hz Stereo 3D.

[toxie]

If i understed it right now Stereo 3d / TV is.

1. Passive glasses - it is better with linear polarization than circular on glasses. Circular polarization then player is close to screen create a lot of ghostin on some parts of sceen. I think You can buy filters (without glasses).

2. Shutter glasses - because of polarization, they don't work (whole or part of image is dark) . You have to "break" glasses to rotate lenses.

 

Roughly yes.. You can actually also use standard circular polarization (most modern cinemas use these) glasses on a linear polarized TV (with slight ghosting though!), which can be seen as a quick test setup to make sure everything roughly works with your TV..

 

Did anyone try sony active glasses? They are without polarization filters, and mayby they will work better. I know, that sony sells polariation filters for this glasses. Mayby You can install this filter rotated 90 deg to get picture without ghosting?

 

I wonder if they are really without polarization because the last thing i've heard is that shutterglasses nowadays all feature some kind of polarization to aid with the process and avoid flickering and/or ghosting.

 

Did You get only SBS  3D or did You get full 1920x1080 x 120Hz.?

 

As we still need to use DX7, the only thing that is currently supported is top-down (as in theory that's the best for current linear polarized TVs as they can display only half yres anyhow) and (undocumented) scanline-split (most passive TVs suck using this directly, as they are all doing at least -some- post processing on the scanlines )

 

Did You add anaglyph mode to VP? 

 

No, as IMHO anaglyph is really really bad..

The stereo depth you can achieve there without getting a headache cannot match the depth of pinballs at all..

 

If I saw VP with Stereo 3D in January, probably i wouldn't start work on BAM

 

Which would be very bad, as your support is much much better (as said we are still stuck on the ooooooooold DX7)..

But i'll catch up as soon as we have the port to DX9 done..

 

I have working BAM with full res 1920 x 1080 x 120Hz Stereo 3D.

 

In theory i could support this, too, but then again we don't have access to any kind of API that would allow TVs to actually display this (for now)..

Also the VP performance sucks, as all the stereo calculations have to be done on the CPU (DX7 has no shader support, and VP is pre-rendering a lot currently, so its always downloading from GPU, then stereo, then uploading to GPU again -> worst possible performance )..

[The Loafer]

Please, no one give Rav access to a time machine!!!

[memechke8]

Hello,

is it possible to buy a complet set for use the bam mode

i have two wii motes here in home

thanks for answer please

[pocketpal]

I did some research, decided to just take a chance, and ordered a relatively inexpensive ($169.99 after $20 rebate + shipping) 3D monitor from NewEgg for my mini-pin build that looked like it should work: an ASUS VG23AH.

NewEgg page: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16824236262

ASUS page: http://www.asus.com/...jectors/VG23AH/

It's a 23" LED-backlit IPS LCD FRP 3D monitor

Wikipedia page on FPR 3D: http://en.wikipedia....terned_retarder

Anyway, I got it in yesterday and got to play around with it last night, and all I can say is WOW!   Ok, I can say a few more things... the colors are vivid, it is very bright, and the viewing angles are wide (178 degrees in both directions). The panel it is replacing is an ASUS 23" TN, and the IPS makes a huuuge difference!

As for the 3D: as stated on the Wikipedia page linked above, FPR uses passive circular polarization, which seemed like just the thing for viewing 90-degree rotated 3D to me, and I can now verify that it does work really well! I haven't yet tried it in a standard landscape configuration, but in the portrait mode required for my mini-pin, the 3D is very good, as long as I don't move my head too much right or left. That's the main drawback, but considering the currently available technologies, I think it is the best solution for me, and I am quite pleased! Once you play virtual pinball in 3D, you won't want to go back to flat!

[toxie]

Out of interest: You didn't need to tweak your glasses (rotation) or the FP setup when looking on the TV in portrait mode?

(cause that would answer my question on circular polarized glasses, i never saw a TV that uses it personally)

[pocketpal]

Out of interest: You didn't need to tweak your glasses (rotation) or the FP setup when looking on the TV in portrait mode?

(cause that would answer my question on circular polarized glasses, i never saw a TV that uses it personally)

 

Right:  I'm using the glasses and the screen in their stock, out-of-the-box state.  No settings were changed in FP from the way I already had them for arcade render mode, and I only changed the settings in BAM to the proper 3D mode for my monitor (Passive - Interlaced), and tweaked the "Distance between eyes" until it looked right.  So, yeah -- basically, it just worked!

 

Edit:  to be clear, I am wearing the glasses the way they are meant to be worn for normal landscape viewing.

Edited by pocketpal, 10 July 2013 - 05:28 PM.

[ravarcade]

Small warrning.
In BAM v0.9-37 i break calibration for HT w/PS3. 
So if You have to do Calibration:
1. Replace BAM.dll to version from v0.9-36
2. Do Calibration
3. Replace BAM.dll to version v0.9-37
Rest is workingkin normaly.
To day i'm too tired to find error
 
Info about my fight with Active Shutter Glasses.
First:
Big thanks to ASUS Polska for the borrow of the ASUS VG278.
Realy great monitor.
 
Now about Stereo 3D
In few days i will realase verion compatible with 120Hz active Stereo 3D TV/Monitors.
So You will have full HD (1920x1080) Stereo 3D.
 
I get it to work with nVidia GF GT 630 (it will work with any Gefore 4xx/5xx/6xx/7xx , may by olders too), but probly only under Win7/8 (no XP).
With nVidia You can get 1920x1080x120Hz.
 
I get it to work with AMD/ATI Radeon 7770. It will work with 6xxx and above.... but:
- It will work only thru HDMI 1.4a
- You can get 1920x1080x48Hz (Yes, only 24 stereo framse pre sec) or 1280x720x120Hz - this is limit of HDMI 1.4a standard.
- You have to remove borders (ATI drivers recognize monitor conected with HDMI as TV and scale image to get some borders.
 
In short: Active 3D TV - nVidia is  far better. 
 
Now realy bad news.
I try to play with active glasses. Playfield, colors are fantastic, but game play is tragic. There is realy big problem with BALL. With shutter glasses on head i have realy big problem to trace ball in motion. Problem is not in how it is rendered. Glasses create problem. They blink and brain recognize frames as 2 separate balls.
I compare it to anaglyph glasses. There was no problem to trace ball.
I don't know if any active glasses will work ok.

UPDATE
------
It is probly my error. I draw frames in wrong order (LEFT->RIGHT instead RIGHT->LEFT).

(undocumented) scanline-split (most passive TVs suck using this directly, as they are all doing at least -some- post processing on the scanlines )

It is not exacly true. Yes some TV do posprocessing and it will break all 3D, but i used 2 monitor in pass with passive 3D and without suport for SBS. So i have to add it to BAM. (Thanks god i don't have limits of DX7 and i can use shaders).
 
 

... all the stereo calculations have to be done on the CPU (DX7 has no shader support, and VP is pre-rendering a lot currently, so its always downloading from GPU, then stereo, then uploading to GPU again -> worst possible performance )..

Do You have to render 2 frames on GPU, copy it to RAM, create SBS and send it back? Why You don't use viewports? DX7 have viewports, it is realy simple. I use viewports in open gl to draw SBS. This way i render 2 frames with lower res (i don't draw lines don't needed) and don't have to do any copy/postprocessing.
 
I do one more cool thing (i don't know if You do it in VP). I shift frame for one eye about half of line (or full line of full res). This way elements drawed on same level as screen surface looks normal (You don't see double lines). This way, for example BAM menu look normal (like with full res).

Edited by ravarcade, 11 July 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[toxie]

 

... all the stereo calculations have to be done on the CPU (DX7 has no shader support, and VP is pre-rendering a lot currently, so its always downloading from GPU, then stereo, then uploading to GPU again -> worst possible performance )..

Do You have to render 2 frames on GPU, copy it to RAM, create SBS and send it back? Why You don't use viewports? DX7 have viewports, it is realy simple. I use viewports in open gl to draw SBS. This way i render 2 frames with lower res (i don't draw lines don't needed) and don't have to do any copy/postprocessing.
 
I do one more cool thing (i don't know if You do it in VP). I shift frame for one eye about half of line (or full line of full res). This way elements drawed on same level as screen surface looks normal (You don't see double lines). This way, for example BAM menu look normal (like with full res).

 

You are perfectly right with that, but there is one thing in VP that makes all of that difficult: All the pre-rendering and post-compositing steps.. So i cannot simply have two viewports -during- rendering but should have all of that also in the pre-rendering phase (i.e. also double the mem usage for all the pre-rendered animations, etc).. Plus then all kinds of problems with the actual compositing stage afterwards..

So i went for the low hanging fruit of post-processing stereo, i.e. reprojecting the samples to the left and right eye, and as i don't have a shader for that (yet), due to DX7, i do it on the CPU.. With the help of SSE this part is also pretty fast, but the up- and download of the buffer(s) is a bit slow..

 

DX9 to the rescue.. Or even better: All geometry being rendered -live- and not a mixture of realtime and compositing, so that i could use two different cameras basically..

[ravarcade]

BAM Update!

http://ravarcade.pl/...BAM_v0.9-38.ZIP

- Fixed Calibration
- Added: Active - shutter glasses mode for 120Hz active TV/Monitors.

How to use new 3d mode:
1a. nVidia:
- required Win7 / Win8
- required Geforce 4xx/5xx/6xx/7xx
- new drivers: 320.49 (nvidia added support for quad buffer stereo in open gl 2-4 moths ago)
- 120Hz monitor - You have to set refreshrate 120Hz. If You don't set 120Hz BAM will use 3D mode, but 60Hz blinking screen looks bad and my glasses did not work.

1b. AMD/ATI
- required Radeon 6xxx/7xxx
- Win 7 / Win 8
- Connect monitor / tv with HDMI 1.4a cable (It will not work thru DVI or D-SUB)
- Set Mode to 720p x 60Hz. In Catalyst Control Center disable scaling - driver will probly detect monitor/TV as TV and scale image x95%. 

2. run BAM, set mode - You will see info about required restart
3. exit game and start again (You don't have to exit from FP)
4. If You hardware support this mode, it will work, if not You will see message in BAM menu
5. If You want to disable Stereo 3D or select other mode, You will see message about required restart.

You have to do restart to use Active 3D, because it require "special" initialization of open gl state.

------
Yesterday, i write about "very bad" ball tracking with shutter glasses. 
Well, there is problem in performance. To get right ball tracking, You need 120FPS from GFX. In my tests yesterday i get 60Hz and effect was very bad. I have to lower setting in FP (disable AntyAliasing).

With ATI/AMD i don't recoment to use 1920x1080. You will have to use 48Hz mode. A Ball in motion will almost "disappear". 
-----
In new 3d mode You have only one switch. You can change order of calculating frames: Left - Right (normal) or Right - Left (swaped). In my test its did not improve anything, but maybe You will see little difference at ball movment.

 

[ravarcade]

BAM Update!

 

http://ravarcade.pl/...BAM_v0.9-39.ZIP

 

- Faster load time (-2 sec). Now BAM add ~0.5 sec to load time compared to FP without BAM

- Backbox global settings. In "config"->"BackBox" You can set global setting for BackBox:

1. You can set one of presets

2. Choose how BAM uses global setting: use table.cfg (default) / use global (sets Backbox based on global preset, but not overwrite table.cfg) / overwrite (use global and overwrite setting in table.cfg).

- Ented numbers with normal keyboard. No all numbers, only numbers without units. Example You can set in Static CAM mode Cam-Y in FP units, but You can't set Cam-Y in inchs or cm. You can use digits form numpad/normal keyboard, period, comma, minus and backspace. You can't see cursor so here is how to do it:

1. evere time You select option or hide/show BAM menu You start entering num from begin, so at start select for example Cam Y with arrows

2. start entering num, press: 123.456-(minus)     You will enter: -123.5 (parts of num is rounded).

 

I'm expecting some complains. You will use same keys like in game (like 1 or 5). If You want limit keys to numpad let me know.

Blame dboyrecords for use of digits keys   .

[manocheese]

Thanks Rav, your work looks great. II can't wait to get the Kinect plugin going, it's currently not being detected