106 replies to this topic

[Rockinghorse]

Hi Guys,

Yes I did have success with one of my tables having 3d aspects. It is called "Heart of Darkness" with is based on the PC game of the same name which you play wearing R/G glassess. Very cool and a great game. The pinball uses an image on the playfield and other elements, including the ball, which are 3d rendered and the whole table jumps off the screen

One of these days I'll re-release it.

RH

[sleepy]

A monumental task, but if Visual Pinball could be ported to Playstation 3 using the 3D features...

...but it won't be me.

...
...
...Hey! What about porting Visual Pinball to XBox 360/XBox Live?
It has a 3D feature, but does XBox use DirectX?

Edited by sleepy, 18 July 2011 - 04:29 AM.

[faralos]

xbox most likely uses DirextX since Xbox is a product of The Gates family (microsoft) I would think with the speed of the redraw it would but this is just my personal opinion

[Centaur Machine]

A monumental task, but if Visual Pinball could be ported to Playstation 3 using the 3D features...

...but it won't be me.

...
...
...Hey! What about porting Visual Pinball to XBox 360/XBox Live?
It has a 3D feature, but does XBox use DirectX?

As someone mentioned on the last page, making a game display in 3D is almost trivial, since all polygon games are already in 3D. The information is already there in the game, that's how Nvidia 3D glasses are able to display all polygon video games in stereoscopic 3D, even ones made in the 1990s.

It's really up to the video card's drivers, because the drivers need to give instructions to the video card as the game code is executed. That's how the Xbox360 and PS3 are now able to display in 3D, simply with a firmware update. The consoles did not launch with 3D capability.

Edited by Centaur Machine, 18 July 2011 - 01:35 PM.

[sleepy]

Looking around the Net, it appears that XBox 360 uses DirectX9c.
Can't be sure though.

[Centaur Machine]

I've heard that it uses a custom form of DirectX, based somewhere around 9 or 10. I'm still not clear if VP is DirectX.

Anyway, VP is open source. It cannot be sold. And free software doesn't match with Microsoft's plans, I don't think. Just guessing, but even if you were to give the software free, you'd have to pay for some kind of developer thing. It may only be $50, I can't remember. Then you may have to pay for each 'sale' -- Microsoft's cut, for using their platform they expect a profit and to cover bandwidth. So I don't think it can happen; I could be wrong though. I don't use Xbox, so perhaps they have some freebies now and then.

Edited by Centaur Machine, 18 July 2011 - 07:11 PM.

[sleepy]

Glassless 3D Portrait monitors are available, but the minimum 3D viewing distance is 70 cm for the 21" Single-Viewer Display SV2100S.
The 42" HD multi-view MP42 min. 3D viewing distance is, unfortunately,
2,1 m, but this company promises custom viewing distance adjustments for clients.

I wonder how much they cost (expensive, probably) and how good they look?

http://www.tridelity...-3d-mp42.0.html

Bulk group discount rate for cab builders, perhaps?

[tagi3d]

problem with all 3d TV's is the 3d displacement is LEFT and RIGHT because they are designed to sit parallel to your eyes when sitting on a couch in front of you.... pinball cabinets being vertical would need software to adjust the displacement in a vertical display to be UP and DOWN unless the resolution can be set to vertical which would be even more unlikely.... im not even sure this is possible...

technically with NVIDIA's drivers... http://www.nvidia.co...y-overview.html

you can already make a 3D tv display any game run in 3D.. I have this hooked up to my 3DTV... it works well for most games... not that i play them like that but it was fun to try.

Has anyone tried this with FP?

[dokworm]

i have a bad news about 3dvision, you can't use it if monitor is in vertical position, like it should be used for a pinball cab, everything became black!! too bad.

cheers

This is not true. The glasses do not have polarizers in them. They are strictly switching glasses.

The LCD screen usually does have polarizers, but not the glasses. I have a DLP set and can watch it sideways.

The more important thing is driver support for a sideways rotated screen. The L to R spatial difference displayed in the 2 images needs to be in the same orientation as the plane through your eyes for the 3D effect to work.

Spektre

All active glasses have polarisers by default. The LCD shutters are themselves polarised, and this is why when you turn your head with an LCD monitor the screen goes black. It doesn't happen with DLP because DLP is not polarised, but the Nvidia glasses still are.

[sleepy]

No, a Glassless 3D Portrait monitor displays the left and right images vertically; lengthwise.
Portrait mode = vertical orientation.
Landscape Mode = horizontal orientation.

As long as a Portrait Mode 3D monitor is receiving the left and right images correctly, the monitor is designed to display 3D vertically, but that doesn't mean this glassless 3D portrait monitor will work in a pinball cab due to the minimum 3D viewing distance and viewing angle.
l'd love to find out if it can!

The active shutter glasses do use active polarized LCDs, but only to open one eye's view while closing the other eye's view in sync with the alternating left and right images. In an active shutter system the left and right images are not displayed together at the same time. They are displayed one image at a time, first the left image with the left eye view of the active shutter glasses clear while the right eye view is blocked, then the right-side image with the right eye view of the active shutter glasses open while the left eye view is blocked.

This is not the issue with polarized glasses and 3D because there are also Passive 3D monitors that use polarization the same as do theaters. The glasses for this type of 3D system do not use active LCD shutter glasses. Instead, these use permanent polarized lenses that use no batteries or radio signals to work correctly.
The screen has alternating lines or dots of opposite polarity which correspond to the specific polarization of the left eye lens and the right eye lens. This type of 3D sacrifices resolution to display 3D, though in 3D it may not be a problem. It has been reported that sitting too close to these monitors while watching in 3D, one can see the gaps in the picture, like blank lines, but that is probably only when viewing the 3D picture while wearing the glasses but closing one eye, else perhaps during scenes with motion.

These passive 3D monitors are reported to offer 100% high resolution, the same as conventional 2D HD monitors, when displaying 2D content. No glasses are needed for 2D viewing.

[BitPirate]

There are 3d displays coming out that do not require glasses. Nintendo DS, laptops and cell phones are using the same technology today. If I understand it - all it is a mask over the lcd with very fine vertical lines printed on the film. The image still has to go through processing, but essentially, the mask sheilds one eye - so one eye can see one line of pixels, and the other eye can see another line of pixels.

I read about it a few months ago and thought...the film could be simple to get/have printed...but then VP or FP would have to go through some processing.

Just a thought

[oooPLAYER1ooo]

yeah sharp even have a model that you can watch 2 different 1080p video signals on different angles so 2 people can be sitting on a couch and watch 2 different things and obvious digital signage uses.

its the same technology and is far from new " it was actually developed by sega and sharp in the 80's", the issue is the long term health issues involved, that's why we don't have them available for domestic use yet.... but they are perfecting it

Edited by oooPLAYER1ooo, 25 April 2012 - 05:19 AM.

[faralos]

three years ago when I first started with vp
someone made an experimental table
using the old red and blue side by side images
the pin wasn't ever completed nor do I have it any more
but it did show it was possible
although rather crude looking with the red and blue glasses anyways

[toxie]

As i'm finally about to build my own cabinet, i gave the VP 3D idea another thought on the weekend, as i wanna build a LG 3D TV into the cabinet if possible.. And i think i've figured something out that -could- be doable with the current way VP works (amongst some other ideas ).. I'll hopefully spend some time this week to experiment with my living room LG and a customized VP build and get back to you guys if i find something working halfway decent..

[faralos]

yeah sharp even have a model that you can watch 2 different 1080p video signals on different angles so 2 people can be sitting on a couch and watch 2 different things and obvious digital signage uses.

its the same technology and is far from new " it was actually developed by sega and sharp in the 80's", the issue is the long term health issues involved, that's why we don't have them available for domestic use yet.... but they are perfecting it

and how much would this technology cost? and with two different video feeds
coming out of one tv how does the audio work then? is it two different signals
coming out of two different speaker set ups or does it have two headphone jacks
so the audio signals don't get mixed

[toxie]

Good news everyone, my experiments worked pretty well so far, here are two teaser pics, MM in 16:9 (so 'normal' TV setup) and TAF in FS (270 degree rotated TV) with stereo output..
So far its only an experiment though, and of course won't work with each and every VP table, but every table which is more or less modeled in 'real 3D' (like JP does for example most of the time) without nasty tricks should work reasonably well..
One more note: The MM pic has one artifact in the middle, simply ignore this (this is a case where the experiment fails currently, but i guess designers could work around this easily) for now.. Also its dead slow for now, but i have some ideas to work around this which need more time than this experiment though..
As for the setup: I tested this with my LG, result is much better than expected..





EDIT: oh, one more remark: if you test the TAF on the rotated display then of course you have to customize your 3d glasses! (otherwise you'll just see nonsense due to the polarization of the glasses!)

Edited by toxie, 22 May 2012 - 10:22 PM.

[BitPirate]

Good news everyone, my experiments worked pretty well so far, here are two teaser pics, MM in 16:9 (so 'normal' TV setup) and TAF in FS (270 degree rotated TV) with stereo output..
So far its only an experiment though, and of course won't work with each and every VP table, but every table which is more or less modeled in 'real 3D' (like JP does for example most of the time) without nasty tricks should work reasonably well..
One more note: The MM pic has one artifact in the middle, simply ignore this (this is a case where the experiment fails currently, but i guess designers could work around this easily) for now.. Also its dead slow for now, but i have some ideas to work around this which need more time than this experiment though..
As for the setup: I tested this with my LG, result is much better than expected..





EDIT: oh, one more remark: if you test the TAF on the rotated display then of course you have to customize your 3d glasses! (otherwise you'll just see nonsense due to the polarization of the glasses!)

Would like to know more as to what you are shooting for. Looks like stereoscopic type 3d - If I save and rotate TAF and cross (do what you do with those 3d type pictures) I can in fact see a 3d layout of the table - not perfect but pretty cool.
Having said this, I'm not sure what you mean by your reference to using glasses. Mind elaborating a little bit?

I was originally thinking perhaps we could do something like this -
would be cheap to print the Parallax Barrier and would not require glasses...

[toxie]

Would like to know more as to what you are shooting for. Looks like stereoscopic type 3d - If I save and rotate TAF and cross (do what you do with those 3d type pictures) I can in fact see a 3d layout of the table - not perfect but pretty cool.
Having said this, I'm not sure what you mean by your reference to using glasses. Mind elaborating a little bit?

I was originally thinking perhaps we could do something like this -
would be cheap to print the Parallax Barrier and would not require glasses...

I wanna go for a setup that can be used on a 'normal' 3D TV (in my case a LG with passive/polarized 3D glasses), and these can handle inputs like side by side or top-down (like the experimental pictures above) which it then converts to match its polarization layout (i.e. be usable by the glasses, in our cabinet case glasses must be customiued though due to the rotation of the display).. As for parallax: The idea is of course neat, but there is always problems with this (see f.e. the Nintendo 3DS), especially if you are not looking 'straight' on the TV but from an angle, like it is the case with a cabinet setup..

So i'm pretty sure now that it will work, but the problem is the damn oldskool rendering approach that VP has, so there is still some more work to do to actually make it fast enough in practice, but the good thing is that there is also more into it then (i'm thinking of postfilter stuff like FXAA), but i don't wanna make too much promises, first some more work, then i can give an estimate if it would really work out..

[webby]

I can't recall which one it was, but in one of his tables Rockinghorse did 3d (red blue glasses) - it was pretty cool.

I have been playing around with 3D stereoscopic Red/cyan and found it really cool.
I found a couple of tutorials using photoshop and have used the techniques on Attack from Mars. The first only takes a minute per image and is not that great but method 2 i used on the backglass took 2 hours and the effect is super.

I have put a rapidshare link below, its 11mb (its DIY 3D as i dont have MOD permission) the file contains the backglass and a few playfields and alien images, same names. they really add depth to the table but turn up your brightness. All you need now is a pair of Red/Cyan glasses.

Please let me know how it looks if you try especially on high end pincabs.
Thanks.

https://rapidshare.c.../diy_3D_AFM.rar

Webster

[BitPirate]

-->Toxie,
I beleive I understand what you mean about the 3ds. I don't personally have one but have seen them a couple of times.
I beleive this method should work from all vertical angles as you are blocking the view of a column (an actual row on the tv) of pixels. Having said that, it should not matter where you stand in that vertical column. As far as rendering goes...You would probably know better as to how that could possibly be done.
PS. I don't mean to push this idea, I and many others simply don't have a 3d display to use
Correct me if Iam wrong, Im assuming that your idea would lay the images over top of one another, in theory you would only see one image in each eye (with rotation of the polarization of the film in your glasses). Something like this:

I'm definately interested in the notion of 3d pinball. That would totally bring this community to the next level.

-->Webby
Thats awsome, I will totally try this out on my cab and let you know. I just recently made a set of red/blue glasses for none other than the rare unreleased 3d version of the creature from the black lagoon.
Thanks for sharing.