36 replies to this topic

[RoverDaddy]

Interesting comments in this thread! I've had the thought occasionally, that if I ever wanted to get into the business of making pinball machines (talk about never-gonna-happen), my approach would be to use the latest technology, but target a retro look. To me, the 'golden age' of pinball is the very end of the EM era, before machines could talk, multiball and DMD existed, and games dropped from 5 balls to 3. Of course that's probably based on my age and the fact that that's when I grew up loving pinball.

I think it would be fun to create new machines in the style of the early 70's, and find ways to make them cheaper and more reliable at the same time. Such a machine would have far fewer moving parts than today's licensed masterpieces, and of course no relay logic or reels like the old EM machines. Just as a very simple example of trying to make the machines easier to maintain, use LEDs for all lighting instead of incandescent bulbs.

It seems like many of the posters here have a different view, looking for the playing experience to move beyond the current 90's-and-later level, with more motion, sound and video.

[Flying Dutchman]

Very informative .. Thanks Noah!

[ynneBBenny]

Interesting comments in this thread! I've had the thought occasionally, that if I ever wanted to get into the business of making pinball machines (talk about never-gonna-happen), my approach would be to use the latest technology, but target a retro look. To me, the 'golden age' of pinball is the very end of the EM era, before machines could talk, multiball and DMD existed, and games dropped from 5 balls to 3. Of course that's probably based on my age and the fact that that's when I grew up loving pinball.

I think it would be fun to create new machines in the style of the early 70's, and find ways to make them cheaper and more reliable at the same time. Such a machine would have far fewer moving parts than today's licensed masterpieces, and of course no relay logic or reels like the old EM machines. Just as a very simple example of trying to make the machines easier to maintain, use LEDs for all lighting instead of incandescent bulbs.

It seems like many of the posters here have a different view, looking for the playing experience to move beyond the current 90's-and-later level, with more motion, sound and video.

I identify with pretty much all you said. Less playfield clutter, muffled talk, stupid plastic toys etc. In Australia where I live, I met the guy who claims to own much of the Bally licences and garb to the old machines. When I spoke with him, all he wanted to talk about was sueing people for copyright breaches for recreations of parts for the old machines. He is sitting idly on history while it decays into oblivian, instead of preserving history. Its people like him who make it impossible to recreate golden oldies like KISS and others.

This is far off topic, so let me also say, Noah you are doing soooo well with your interviews etc. In many ways I am glad the old has gone and given way to new blood. I wonder if we would even have VP 9 if it wasnt for your networking.

[studmuff]

Thanks. I can't believe I missed this.

[LostWorldPinball]

I think pinball should change from the 90s in a different way than what people are saying.

Someone said in this topic that they changed from 5 balls to 3. For the person that doesn't have much skill playing the game, a pinball game might end pretty fast with 3 balls. Maybe, they need to have more chances to help the person out (give them 4 balls or dare I say 5). Sure, there are people that play pinball a lot, but than a lot of the people probably just play it once, and don't do good at it, and it's over just like that.

I played that Roller Coaster Tycoon on Visual Pinball, and I don't like the game (but that's not the point), if you don't use that flipper on the left side in the middle of the screen, you can lose that game in 15 seconds. The ball just goes to the left when you first shoot it, and it goes down easily without using that flipper.

There are some games that I have played that like Roller Coaster Tycoon, that you shoot the ball, and it goes right down the middle with not even given a chance of playing the ball. For a game like Funhouse, you have that one hole on the right (It's in other games like Twilight Zone I think.), and if you don't know it's coming, you can easily loose the ball because it shoots out so fast.

I think pinball games should be a little less complicated also. Sometimes, you wonder what the heck are you supposed to do? For Independence Day, I wonder that. Sure, there are game rules and such, but if you don't know those rules, what's the main objective? People that play pinball not like this board people aren't going to want to figure out those rules. Imo, people should know what to do when they are playing the game.

For Funhouse, I watched someone else play it, and thought hey that's cool that you have to wait until it closes, and than Rudy gets mad. Before, I knew that; I was thinking this game isn't that great. If I find it somewhere, I wouldn't care if I played it or not. It's because the game didn't communicate to me what the objective was. Sure, you can look at the lights on the machine, but when you have a ball flying all over the place, do you really have time to do that? The casual player is not going to get that.

I think pinball games need to tell the person playing the game what to do to get a mutliball, or how to get a lot more points than what they are doing now. I like how Lost World Jurassic Park game tells the pinball person 2 more shots to open up the egg, and see the T-Rex, or something like that. It tells you what to do. I think that game could be better, but still one main objective, it tells you how to do it.

Edited by LostWorldPinball, 19 August 2009 - 03:49 PM.

[studmuff]

I think pinball should change from the 90s in a different way than what people are saying.

Someone said in this topic that they changed from 5 balls to 3. For the person that doesn't have much skill playing the game, a pinball game might end pretty fast with 3 balls. Maybe, they need to have more chances to help the person out (give them 4 balls or dare I say 5). Sure, there are people that play pinball a lot, but than a lot of the people probably just play it once, and don't do good at it, and it's over just like that.

I played that Roller Coaster Tycoon on Visual Pinball, and I don't like the game (but that's not the point), if you don't use that flipper on the left side in the middle of the screen, you can lose that game in 15 seconds. The ball just goes to the left when you first shoot it, and it goes down easily without using that flipper.

There are some games that I have played that like Roller Coaster Tycoon, that you shoot the ball, and it goes right down the middle with not even given a chance of playing the ball. For a game like Funhouse, you have that one hole on the right (It's in other games like Twilight Zone I think.), and if you don't know it's coming, you can easily loose the ball because it shoots out so fast.

I think pinball games should be a little less complicated also. Sometimes, you wonder what the heck are you supposed to do? For Independence Day, I wonder that. Sure, there are game rules and such, but if you don't know those rules, what's the main objective? People that play pinball not like this board people aren't going to want to figure out those rules. Imo, people should know what to do when they are playing the game.

For Funhouse, I watched someone else play it, and thought hey that's cool that you have to wait until it closes, and than Rudy gets mad. Before, I knew that; I was thinking this game isn't that great. If I find it somewhere, I wouldn't care if I played it or not. It's because the game didn't communicate to me what the objective was. Sure, you can look at the lights on the machine, but when you have a ball flying all over the place, do you really have time to do that? The casual player is not going to get that.

I think pinball games need to tell the person playing the game what to do to get a mutliball, or how to get a lot more points than what they are doing now. I like how Lost World Jurassic Park game tells the pinball person 2 more shots to open up the egg, and see the T-Rex, or something like that. It tells you what to do. I think that game could be better, but still one main objective, it tells you how to do it.

I agree that it would be nice to have 5 balls for the novice player. The problem is the intermediate-skilled players can spen anywhere from 20-30 minutes on a three ball game alone. Take LOTR for example. One of my friends played my pin for over 45 minutes. I did have it set to 5 balls at the time but still one game for 45 minutes is a longtime. The problem is the arcades want to make money and want the balls to go quick. They don't want someone to sit on a machine for 30 minutes and only make 50-75 cents.

[LostWorldPinball]

Maybe, than they should make it harder for those people that are spending a long time on only one game. How do you do that, well, you could open more holes in order for the people to have a greater chance of losing.

For instance, for something like Starship Troopers, you have that pink flipper. Well, instead of that pink flipper, make that pink flipper a thing that goes up and down (It would go down 8 minutes into the game, or something like that), so it's a greater chance for that person to loose, but still give the player 4 or 5 balls (The 4 or 5 balls is for the novice more than the expert player.).

I played Stargate game, and I literally was done with that game within a minute, and I'm not an expert, but I might consider myself a intermediate.

Edited by LostWorldPinball, 19 August 2009 - 06:02 PM.

[studmuff]

Maybe, than they should make it harder for those people that are spending a long time on only one game. How do you do that, well, you could open more holes in order for the people to have a greater chance of losing.

For instance, for something like Starship Troopers, you have that pink flipper. Well, instead of that pink flipper, make that pink flipper a thing that goes up and down (It would go down 8 minutes into the game, or something like that), so it's a greater chance for that person to loose, but still give the player 4 or 5 balls (The 4 or 5 balls is for the novice more than the expert player.).

I played Stargate game, and I literally was done with that game within a minute, and I'm not an expert, but I might consider myself a intermediate.

One of my Buddies has a StarGate. Once you get used to it, the game is very easy. It's like anything else, with repetition it gets easier.

[rob046]

Nice work noah getting this interview, another nice piece of work that I'm a bit late on catching, but kudo's on getting some great content on this site, we never had stuff like this before.

I think G.Stern was nice to do the interview, but I also think he was just trying to sell us his pinballs the whole time. Which that is his job, but I would have liked to see a little bit more "true pinball fan" in him.
Also, I simply disagree with some of his thoughts, and I don't think he is getting the most out of his company and putting out the best pins possible. Just my opinion, but most importantly, at least Stern is still making pinball's, so I do appreciate that. That is more important than how people might feel about them on a less important level, that is all semantics in the big picture.

[faralos]

<quote>I think pinball games should be a little less complicated also. Sometimes, you wonder what the heck are you supposed to do? For Independence Day, I wonder that. Sure, there are game rules and such, but if you don't know those rules, what's the main objective? People that play pinball not like this board people aren't going to want to figure out those rules. Imo, people should know what to do when they are playing the game.<endquote>

Personally to me playing it and figuring it out is half the fun. All pins come with rules, it's just a matter of deciding whether or not to to read thru it all. Most pins are laid out pretty obvious. look for the same colored targets or arrows (lights) this usually means that these objects all tie in together. I think it's fun to 'accidently' open up a new area or hitting something which does something new. I usually read just the basics and look for the most obvious stuff to hit! a lot of the newer pins are so cluttered ya' can't see the crap you are supposed to be hitting half the time anyways. So just 'poke and hope' or read all of it. your call. Me? I just start 'er up and hope for the best!

[LostWorldPinball]

^I think the people that get it already aren't the problem. For Apollo 13 game I'll take that for example. The main objective to get the 13 multiballs is for people to hit the space shuttle a number of times. I thought it was 3, but it must change. Well, person that plays it the first time, or second time, and so on are going to think how to get that 13 multiball if they even know what multiball is.

The screen says you have this number to get multiball, but sometimes you can't even look at the screen because you are too busy worrying about the play of the game. Just because it says 3 balls till multiball, where do you shoot?

Pinball people get it because they understand the game, but non-pinball might not get it until they play multiple times. If they think that the game doesn't has much potential because they don't understand 13 multiball, they aren't going to play it again. If the game let's them lose so fast, they aren't going to play again.

The pinball people are the ones that are going to play the game, and figure out what things mean, but to others maybe they won't figure it out after one token, and than they won't play that again. I have heard people say that it's a lot of adults that like pinball. Why is that the case? I think it might be because the games need to give more direction in what to do, and give the beginners (For them, a game might last 30 seconds, and they don't play it again) a better chance of success at the game, and they will play it more.

As I said above, to extend the game for beginners have less open spaces, and than the further into the game, open them. Put up tiny "walls" at the start, and than take them down the further the game goes. Than, 3 balls doesn't seem that bad. I do understand that some people are playing 45 minutes. Well, that means that the game should get harder for them. Right now, most games have 3 open spaces (They are the 2 sides, and down the middle.) Well, you can add more, but towards the beginning keep up the walls, and take them down if the player is taking 10 minutes for one ball.

Another thing to make it easier at the beginning would be to turn off those things right before the flippers that make your pinball go side to side, and than sometimes drain.

These places in my opinion weren't ONLY taking pinball out because they were broken, or because of the space, but I kind of think it has to do with the people playing the games. Less people were playing them, and they are barely existing. They felt because of how much less revenue they are getting, they could take them out. If more people were playing them, I think they would still be around. Granted pinball is still around, but let's face it they aren't at every arcade anymore, and for so many of them made, how many do you find at arcades?

It's nice to see Stern making pinball machines, but if they aren't going to change (if they don't accomodate the people that don't understand, the people that lose so fast and don't play again), I feel it's going to be the end for pinball (at least the making of new machines).

I played Lord of Rings (1 ball) in 12 seconds actually trying, and not just saying oh let me do bad just to prove my point. I consider myself to be better than a beginner though. That in my opinion is why pinball is dying. I'm not saying that this table is bad because it's not but what I said above.'

For Wheel of Fortune, the game play was pretty good, but if I see that machine again (I played it before) I'm not going to play it. I don't like that they made the flippers so wide open, and than it just drains down the middle with that stupid bumper that doesn't help. That's a game I would play a lot if it didn't have that bad design in my opinion.

When I used to play Turtles in Time, or the other Turtles game they had, it would go a longer time on that one quarter at the time. For those type of games, you had 3 bars of life I believe. It might take you 15 minutes until you die. You feel you got enough out of the game to play that game again whereas sometimes you play pinball, and you think that game was hard. I don't want to play again. If they had Turtles today, it wouldn't be surviving but that's a different reason. It's because of how the Wii, X-Box graphics are so close to an arcades graphics that people rather just play at home.

I think it should be easy for pinball to survive because you can't get the same feeling virtually that you do in person like Turtles in Time it kind of feels the same on the Super Nintendo.

Edited by LostWorldPinball, 25 August 2009 - 04:34 PM.

[destruk]

Now that it takes three or four coins to start a game, anyone who 'doesn't get it' will insert a coin or two, and when nothing happens they will figure the game is broken. This is the new target audience to reap in mega profits for Stern. The game code and ruleset doesn't need to be complete, the layout doesn't really matter, just slap some nifty artwork on a few plastics and use a theme everyone knows, and then bump up the coin requirement. Will Wheel of Fortune's wizard mode ever work? Will those four lamp inserts ever do anything besides blink in attract mode? We're not talking their latest incomplete game, it's been a couple of years now.

[rob046]

Now that it takes three or four coins to start a game, anyone who 'doesn't get it' will insert a coin or two, and when nothing happens they will figure the game is broken. This is the new target audience to reap in mega profits for Stern. The game code and ruleset doesn't need to be complete, the layout doesn't really matter, just slap some nifty artwork on a few plastics and use a theme everyone knows, and then bump up the coin requirement. Will Wheel of Fortune's wizard mode ever work? Will those four lamp inserts ever do anything besides blink in attract mode? We're not talking their latest incomplete game, it's been a couple of years now.

I totally agree with you all you guys. Stern just isn't getting it done, but the sad part is that they can get away with it, they have no competition, and we that love pinball are kinda forced to swallow it, or play nothing new at all.
Man, if Stern was doing this kind of stuff back when the bally's, gottlieb's, and williams' of the world were still around, they would have bit the dust long ago. And back then, you also couldn't just apply a software update to fix any issues caused by rushing the product.
Why can't they take their time, really get stuff right. We won't mind.
Do they just not want to pay playtesters? Cuz I bet everyone on these forums would do it for peanuts, hell I might even pay them to let me do that kind of fun work!

Anyhow, yeah, in general I just think their whole philosophy on making pinballs isn't very good these days. I won't get into the details that I sometimes do, but you guys pretty much touched on the same things that I'm thinking.
I'm sure so many people on these forums have so many great ideas that could make pinball better (not just gameplay wise, and art-wise, but also the economics of it all, & proper marketing, cutting the right corners, ect.).
WE, HERE, know what it takes for pinball to thrive.
And just because we don't work in a real pinball factory or own a pinball company doesn't mean that some of us wouldn't be THE BEST real pinball experts in the world.

From what I've seen, our pinball community is filled with brilliant people. Some of the originals I've seen over the years, so damn impressive. Eala Dubh could easily be my head pinball designer any day. The work that steve, destruk, gaston, and all the pinmame guys over the years have done is nothing short of genious. And of course we have so many great recreators and original authors. Not to mention so many other people that contribute to VP/FP in many different ways.
Even posters that just come on and critique real and virtual pins, they are often spot on. We know what works, what doesn't.
Point is, and this may be a bold statement, but..."some of the BEST pinball minds in the world do NOT work for stern". No, they are here, with this hobby.

It may be a pipe dream, but I could see myself one day being a part of real pinball manufacturing because I truly believe with all my heart that pinball can be so much more than what it is now. Not just on a gameplay/artistic level, but of course it has to make sense on a business level. However I do think a business model for pinball when done right can indeed be profitable and be done better than it is now. A lot of things these days aren't done to well, and too many stupid people (not singling out stern here) are running the world. Time for those of us with brains to find a way to do things right, but I don't want to stay off topic any more!
And if the stars did align and I was starting a new pinball company, yeah I'd find guys with past experience with real pinball, but I would most definitely recruit right here.

I might be a bit bias, but I see more genious coming out of this "hobby" than I do from the real pin makers. Again, I appreciate that Stern exists and still tries to stay afloat and make pins, but it doesn't mean I'm going to force myself to be satisfied with how they do things.

[Joe]

Now that it takes three or four coins to start a game, anyone who 'doesn't get it' will insert a coin or two, and when nothing happens they will figure the game is broken. This is the new target audience to reap in mega profits for Stern. The game code and ruleset doesn't need to be complete, the layout doesn't really matter, just slap some nifty artwork on a few plastics and use a theme everyone knows, and then bump up the coin requirement. Will Wheel of Fortune's wizard mode ever work? Will those four lamp inserts ever do anything besides blink in attract mode? We're not talking their latest incomplete game, it's been a couple of years now.

stern does not control the price per game the people who put the games on site do.

[destruk]

You're right Joe, they just recommend 75 cents/play.

[studmuff]

I don't think Stern has put out any really interesting games this year. CSI, 24, NBA just don't do it for me.

Transformers might have been good. License may not be available/priced right.

[LostWorldPinball]

I think they need more superhero themes like X-Men, Superman, Wonder Woman, and such but again just because you put these characters on a pinball machine doesn't mean the first timer pinball person is going to enjoy or understand it the way things are.