50 replies to this topic

[Gravy]

 

 

The output is HDMI.  Those little Intel NUCs don't even have a VGA port, only HDMI and DisplayPort.   I would assume the mapping is 1:1 @ 1920 x 1080. 

 

It's going to be interesting when I hook it up this weekend in the living room to the big TV.  That's a 4K TV, so if I were to run the 3D mode at that resolution it should look absolutely amazing, but I don't think the Intel Iris Graphics in the little NUC is capable of driving the monitor at 4K with any usable frame rate.  But static images should look awesome.

 

So I plan on running the monitor at 1080p, and while I know that SBS and T/B modes would look fine (I play SBS 3D movies in 1080p all the time), I don't know if the interlaced mode will work.

 

The way I understand it, the interlaced mode takes advantage of the fact that the LG's 3D polarizing filter basically inversely polarizes every other line.  The naked eyes doesn't see it, but when wearing 3D polarizing glasses, one lens blocks all the inversely polarized lines, while the other block the normally polarized ones.  So the VPX interlaced mode, takes the left and right views and puts them on alternating lines.  This process doesn't actually involve the TV's 3D electronics, it just takes advantage of the screen's native polarization and does it's own 3D, which actually is brilliant. 

 

Except.  What happens when you display an image that is not at the native resolution?  On a 4K monitor, a 1080P image would display a single line on two lines (vertically), so Line 1 (Left field) of the 1080 image will show on lines 1 & 2 of the display and so on.  The problem is that the display polarization will let each eye see both the left and right images, spoiling the 3D effect.

 

Here is a diagram of what I think will happen:

 

 

I'll report my hands on tests this weekend.

 

A couple of points, if your polarised 3D interlaced screen of your pinball cab is 1080p you should run it at native res or else the "every other line" interlaced method of 3D wont line up.

I had a thought also, are you rotating the screen clockwise or anticlockwise, ie; is your brand logo at the left of the cab or right. I wonder if this may be an oversite of the interlaced 3D method inbuilt into VPX, perhaps it only works correctly when rotated clockwise (screen brand logo/base to left)? (although it works swapped eyes with latest build, I wonder if this may have been the previous issue?)

Don't assume that your screen is automatically mapping to 1:1 , you may need to enable this function in your screen menu. Suggest checking to see if any of your windows taskbar is cut off, it may only be by a few pixels, but enough to throw out the interlaced 3D effect. 

What method of 3D does your living room 4K tv use? Shutter glasses or polarised?

Edited by Gravy, 09 December 2021 - 09:41 PM.

[Dudemeister]

OK, I finally had a chance to test the console on my big 4K TV.  The results are disappointing at best.

 

First to answer Gravy's questions.  My setup is in desktop mode.  I don't have a cabinet.  I have a self contained "console" based on an Atari Arcade fighting stick, modified with side buttons for pinball paddles.  It has an Intel NUC6i5SYK built inside it and I use it with one of 2 monitors, either a 32" Vizio E3D320VX or a 65" LG OLED65E6.  Both are 3D Passive/polarized monitors.  The Vizio is 1080p, the LG is 4K

 

Now, to my tests this afternoon.

 

The first thing that happened when I booted the system on the 65" LG, it defaulted to 4K (3840x2160), but set the desktop scaling to 300%.  I ran one of my favorite test tables, JPs Diablo, and it looked OK in 2D, but the DMD (FlexDMD) was oversized.  No problem since I can resize it.  Turning 3D on produced an image that was simply headache inducing.  There was some sort of effect there, but not really 3D.  It had no depth it just looked "wrong".

 

I had seen something similar when I was running 1080p with 125% scaling, so I set the scaling back to 100% (really tiny icons and text at 4K native).  When I started the table, it rendered in a small window in the center of  screen, with the VPX Editor window full screen in the background.  It looks like the pinball render window was scaled at 1920x1080, and there was no way to make it go full screen.  I rebooted the PC, and restarted the table this time it did the same thing, except the table render screen was in the lower right hand corner.  I couldn't figure out why until I went back to  the video preference, it showed that my screen was something like 5640 x 2160.  I don't remember the actual resolution but it was like double wide.  Not exactly double 4K, but something like 1.5 wider.  Why that is, I have no idea.  Suffice it to say, I could not get this thing to run properly at 4K.

 

I then set the desktop to 1080p, and had to reboot the system before VPX would recognize the resolution.  Once I did, everything worked correctly in 2D.  But 3D mode was a no go, in Interlaced 3D, you see the same interlaced image with both eyes, there is no 3D effect.  The system behaves exactly as I mentioned in my previous post.  I did set it to SBS, and then turned 3D on in the TV and that worked just fine, but that wonderful 4K 3D was not to be..

 

So for now, I think I'll reserve 3D for  those times when I want to try something different, and I'll probably reserve it for my Vizio TV.

 

And now for the biggest disappointment: Input lag.  On the LG it's so much worse than the Vizio.  On the Vizio, in 2D mode, lag is still there, especially when compared with my desktop PC monitor, but it's manageable, it's not a game killer.  On the LG, the games are simply unplayable.  I enabled Game mode, it helps a little, but even with that, timing is just off.  When you have to react fast, and the paddles are 200ms off, it's just not playable. Bummer.  

 

Well, this has been my experience.  I'm curious how many folks here are paying their VPX in 3D mode, I'd like to hear their experiences.

 

P.S> Note;  Regarding the question of 1:1 mapping.  The only option I can find on the LG is one for Aspect Ratio.  You can set it to auto mode (Just scan) which is the default, or set and aspect ratio manually from a few canned selections, or zoom in manually in both directions.  When I used it, and looked close at the image in the corner I can tell if I'm under-scanning or over-scanning, and in the default mode, it's right on the money.  So that's not my problem.

Edited by Dudemeister, 11 December 2021 - 05:04 AM.

[dan_shane]

I am playing most of my VPX tables in red/cyan anaglyph 3D these days unless the graphics don't really suit.  On my ALP there is no detectable lag, and I actually notice the ball position and movement a lot more.  I don't much mind sacrificing the accurate color since I'm playing a game rather watching a movie.  I am really grateful for those who made this feature possible.

[Dudemeister]

I'll "putz" around with the LG some more this weekend, maybe I can get it working at 4K full screen.

[wiesshund]

I'll "putz" around with the LG some more this weekend, maybe I can get it working at 4K full screen.

 

Get windows desktop running in 4K@whatever Hz, probably 60?

if you get that, then VPX should fall into place

[Dudemeister]

 

I'll "putz" around with the LG some more this weekend, maybe I can get it working at 4K full screen.

 

Get windows desktop running in 4K@whatever Hz, probably 60?

if you get that, then VPX should fall into place

 

Windows was fine at 4K, VPX was not.  I was getting a small window in the middle the screen, with the VPX editor window in the background.  The editor window was full screen, but the active pinball table was just a small window, something like this:

 

[wiesshund]

Regedit

Computer\HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Visual Pinball\VP10\Player

 

See what value Width and Height show

if they look to be something other than 4k, change those values

[toxie]

 

 

I'll "putz" around with the LG some more this weekend, maybe I can get it working at 4K full screen.

 

Get windows desktop running in 4K@whatever Hz, probably 60?

if you get that, then VPX should fall into place

 

Windows was fine at 4K, VPX was not.  I was getting a small window in the middle the screen, with the VPX editor window in the background.  The editor window was full screen, but the active pinball table was just a small window, something like this:

 

 

Can you please show your video preferences?

[Gravy]

 

I then set the desktop to 1080p, and had to reboot the system before VPX would recognize the resolution.  Once I did, everything worked correctly in 2D.  But 3D mode was a no go, in Interlaced 3D, you see the same interlaced image with both eyes, there is no 3D effect.  The system behaves exactly as I mentioned in my previous post.  I did set it to SBS, and then turned 3D on in the TV and that worked just fine, but that wonderful 4K 3D was not to be..

 

 

Might seem like an obvious question, but are you actually making the resolution change to 4K in the VPX menu preferences/video/graphics option/display and not just in windows display settings?

Edit: I wonder if the NUK615 is actually just a bit hobbled in that perhaps it will do 4K for desktop but not for games and it somehow just falls back to 1080p windowed? Maybe try a 4k 30hz mode and see if that makes any difference.

Possibly related issue and chatter at https://www.techpowe...-nuc6i5.222518/

Edited by Gravy, 11 December 2021 - 10:45 PM.

[Dudemeister]

Today, I had more time to devote to getting this thing working at 4K, and I've made some strides but there's still issues.  A quick warning:  some of the images below are full resolution.

 

I reconnected the system to the TV, and it came back in the last mode I had it before, at 1080P.  At this resolution it looks good, but unfortunately it was simply too slow (lag) to be playable. 

 

I checked all the settings on the TV, Game mode was one, and when that is turned on, all the post-processing the TV does are turned off.  I then looked at my display setting, and when I went to advanced, I realized that the display was running at 29Hz.  Why it automatically went to that refresh rate, I have no idea, so I went to the monitor setting and selected 60Hz (maximum available), and wouldn't you know it, the games are now playable.  The lag has been reduced dramatically.  Not as faast a when connected to my Desktop monitor, but close enough.  No complaints there.

 

Turning on 3D Interlaced mode does not work at this resolution (see my previous email describing why).  Here is what both eyes see:

 

 

Next I changed the resolution to 3840 x 2160, and rebooted the PC.  When I first ran VPX I got this:

 

 

The image was basically a 1920 x 1080 in the middle of the screen.  I opened up the VIdeo preferences and realized that even though the display was set to 3840, the screen was set to 1920 x1080 Landscape.  I set it to 3840 x 2160, and it now worked just fine.

 

 

Interlaced 3D worked too, and it looked great.  Best 3D I'd seen to date (4K 3D ).  But it was unplayable.  So I looked at the advanced settings again.  The refresh rate was once again set to 29Hz.  When I tried to change it, I found out that 30Hz is as high as I could get.

 

I clicked the box to show all available rates (including those not supported by the monitor), and 30Hz is as high as this video card can go at 4K.  I then looked at Intel's specs for the i5-6260U, and the GPU is capable of doing 4K @ 60HZ on the Display port only.  HDMI is restricted to 30Hz.. 

 

No problem, I said to myself, I'll just get a DP cable and I'll have 60Hz.  Yes, but.... At the moment I'm using a HDMI cable with RedMere, and I also have HDMI over optical cables.  The idea is that I can have long cable runs (20ft +) with relatively thin cables.  Standard HDMI and DP cables get pretty thick and hard to manage beyond 10 feet.  I don't know if there is such a thing as a Display port with RedMere , or DP over optical cable.

 

This is my ongoing SAGA with my setup.  If everything was inside a cabinet, those would be things I wouldn't worry about, but I have no room for a full size cab, so I'm struggling with what I got.

 

Update: Scratch the Display Port idea.  My LG doesn't have DP input, only HDMI.  Never needed DP before, so I never bothered to even look for one.  Now I know.

Update #2:  So I looked into my options, and It looks like in order to have 4K @ 60Hz support on HDMI, you need HDMI 2.0 or higher.  It so happens that the Intel NUC8 series, has support for HDMI 2.0, and supports 4K @ 60Hz,  The NUC10 series, supports it too, but has an inferior GPU, and the desirable one would be the Intel NUC11 series with Iris Xe graphics, but those are in the $600-750 range, and I can't justify one right now.  But I can get an 8th gen NUC Core i3 for about $250.

 

But before I do that, I need to see what version HDMI my TV supports.  Remember this is a 2016 TV, the last year that LG made a 3D model.  I'll keep you posted.

Edited by Dudemeister, 12 December 2021 - 07:58 AM.

[Gravy]

 

 

But before I do that, I need to see what version HDMI my TV supports.  Remember this is a 2016 TV, the last year that LG made a 3D model.  I'll keep you posted.

Your TV does seem to support HDMI 2.0 at least https://www.avsforum...ttings.2461106/

There also seem to be displayport to HDMI 2 cables available that apparantly will let you display at 4k 60hz , here's one here in Australia but I'm sure you can find something cheaper https://www.4cabling...mi-2-cable.html


By the way, your TV model is one that has a recall on the power supply in some areas of the world due to early failure risk, I dont think it applies to USA though. Here in Australia the replacement power supply is a free service, more info at https://www.stereone...heating-problem

Edited by Gravy, 12 December 2021 - 06:31 AM.

[Dudemeister]

Thanks for the DP to HDMI idea.  I opted for a miniDP to HDMI 2.0 18Gbps active adapter, and then I can use my 10m long HDMI optical cable for the rest of the run.  I should be getting that adapter my Monday or Tuesday.

 

We'll see how that works.

 

FWIW, if you're wondering why I keep mentioning slim cables, is because I want to be able to coil up the HDMI cable and stow it inside the box along with everything else.  Standard thickness cables, are simply to thick and stiff to do that, especially 15 ~20ft long ones.  The HDMI RedMere cable I'm currently using is only 3.5mm thick, and the HDMI Optical cable is 4mm.  Compare that to about 8mm for the average HDMI cable and almost 10mm thick for long 15ft+ cables

Edited by Dudemeister, 12 December 2021 - 06:48 PM.

[Dudemeister]

I though I'd post a few images of some of the tables at 4K.  For some I also captured the interlaced 3D image:

 

 

As most of you probably know, 3D movies are only 1080p, and on a passive screen like the LG, each eye only gets half the vertical resolution, so in a sense you might say that each eye sees a 1920 x 540 image.  Sure your brain puts it all together as a single image, but this was my first opportunity to see what 4K 3D would be like.  Each eye gets a 3840 x 1080 image, and the whole 3D image is just awesome.   I only wish that movie studios would release 4K 3D movies.  I mean they're still releasing 3D Movies in blue ray, why not do 4K movies in 3D for those that can still enjoy them.

[Gravy]

I though I'd post a few images of some of the tables at 4K.  For some I also captured the interlaced 3D image:

 

As most of you probably know, 3D movies are only 1080p, and on a passive screen like the LG, each eye only gets half the vertical resolution, so in a sense you might say that each eye sees a 1920 x 540 image.  Sure your brain puts it all together as a single image, but this was my first opportunity to see what 4K 3D would be like.  Each eye gets a 3840 x 1080 image, and the whole 3D image is just awesome.   I only wish that movie studios would release 4K 3D movies.  I mean they're still releasing 3D Movies in blue ray, why not do 4K movies in 3D for those that can still enjoy them.

Have you been following the other VPF thread about anaglyph 3D in which prior to VPX inbuilt 3D update I explained how to achieve this with ReShade?  If your PC is up to the task, you can likely use this same shader to achieve 4K 3D in other 3D games together with Depth3D (Superdepth3D) effect addon.

.

 

Get reshade from https://reshade.me/

 

Select the "depth3d by bluskydefender" effects package when installing. Once installed, there is an option in that shader effect for interlaced 3D, hopefully it also works at 4K. It is a bit taxing on the PC though.

You can also get more info on game compatibility etc at https://blueskydefen...hub.io/Depth3D/

 

[wiesshund]

 I only wish that movie studios would release 4K 3D movies.  I mean they're still releasing 3D Movies in blue ray, why not do 4K movies in 3D for those that can still enjoy them.

 

Lack of something to play them on for most of their target consumer audience
and lack of interest, so no drive to invest the expense.

 

TV manufacturers dropped the whole 3D thing a while back
and movies that come out in a 3D format that can still be viewed are rather few overall

 

1080p lets them do a one-shot thing that will pretty much hit anyone that would be capable of viewing it.

I see a lot of people that still have 46" 1080i/1080p TVs

[Gravy]

 

 I only wish that movie studios would release 4K 3D movies.  I mean they're still releasing 3D Movies in blue ray, why not do 4K movies in 3D for those that can still enjoy them.

 

Lack of something to play them on for most of their target consumer audience
and lack of interest, so no drive to invest the expense.

 

TV manufacturers dropped the whole 3D thing a while back
and movies that come out in a 3D format that can still be viewed are rather few overall

 

1080p lets them do a one-shot thing that will pretty much hit anyone that would be capable of viewing it.

I see a lot of people that still have 46" 1080i/1080p TVs

 

They dropped 3D manufacturing just as the technology arrived to actually create 4K 3D (or near 4K anyway) with passive glasses... what a bummer that was.

[Dudemeister]

 

 I only wish that movie studios would release 4K 3D movies.  I mean they're still releasing 3D Movies in blue ray, why not do 4K movies in 3D for those that can still enjoy them.

 

Lack of something to play them on for most of their target consumer audience
and lack of interest, so no drive to invest the expense.

 

TV manufacturers dropped the whole 3D thing a while back
and movies that come out in a 3D format that can still be viewed are rather few overall

 

1080p lets them do a one-shot thing that will pretty much hit anyone that would be capable of viewing it.

I see a lot of people that still have 46" 1080i/1080p TVs

 

Actually, regarding the availability of 3D movies, I can tell you that they are not that few.  If the movie was released in 3D in the theaters, it almost always gets released in 3D on Blu-Ray.  Granted, things have slowed down since COVID19 started, but even then a few came out in 3D (Godzilla vs. King Kong, WonderWoman 84 to name a few).  Also a whole bunch of older movies that had not been previously released in 3D have now gotten the treatment. Dune will be release in 3D in January, Shag-Chi was already released in 3D in Japan (hopefully it be here too if not, I'll have to buy the Japanese version).  There are well over 300 movies available in 3D.

 

Also you said "I see a lot of people that still have 46" 1080i/1080p TVs"  Are you referring to companies selling new 3D TVs?  I'm looking to upgrade my 32" Vizio to something better.  Can you provide info?

[wiesshund]

 

 There are well over 300 movies available in 3D.

 

 

Also you said "I see a lot of people that still have 46" 1080i/1080p TVs"  Are you referring to companies selling new 3D TVs?  I'm looking to upgrade my 32" Vizio to something better.  Can you provide info?

 

300 movies is a horribly small trivial amount, but i think it is actually 450

 

I am not sure what you are asking in regard to 3D TV's

46" wide screen TVs are old tech, 1080i or 1080p, early 2000's

 

But a lot of people still have them (If it aint broke why replace it)

There are also a lot of people that have other forms of EHD TV's that are 720p and some will do 1080i

 

You will probably find more 1080 or less TV's in operation globally than 4K, right now anyways.
So 1080 is going to be the largest common denominator.

If you are doing something extra, that is your biggest bang for your buck

 

Production of 3D televisions died in 2017, there are no new ones in the US
you may find a new old stock one someplace i guess, but no one is making them

 

Also, and probably the biggest reason is

[Shocker] 3D does not exist in the 4K video standard, there is no method of 3D for 4K video[/Shocker]

3D was dead already by the time 4K became a thing, so no surprise that they opted not to included it.

 

If you are looking for a 3D TV, you may still find these two models hanging around

 

Samsung 85-inch UN85JU7100 4K Ultra HD

65-inch Sony XBR65Z9D 4K Ultra HD

[Dudemeister]

 

 

 There are well over 300 movies available in 3D.

 

 

Also you said "I see a lot of people that still have 46" 1080i/1080p TVs"  Are you referring to companies selling new 3D TVs?  I'm looking to upgrade my 32" Vizio to something better.  Can you provide info?

 

300 movies is a horribly small trivial amount, but i think it is actually 450

 

I am not sure what you are asking in regard to 3D TV's

46" wide screen TVs are old tech, 1080i or 1080p, early 2000's

 

But a lot of people still have them (If it aint broke why replace it)

There are also a lot of people that have other forms of EHD TV's that are 720p and some will do 1080i

 

You will probably find more 1080 or less TV's in operation globally than 4K, right now anyways.
So 1080 is going to be the largest common denominator.

If you are doing something extra, that is your biggest bang for your buck

 

Production of 3D televisions died in 2017, there are no new ones in the US
you may find a new old stock one someplace i guess, but no one is making them

 

Also, and probably the biggest reason is

[Shocker] 3D does not exist in the 4K video standard, there is no method of 3D for 4K video[/Shocker]

3D was dead already by the time 4K became a thing, so no surprise that they opted not to included it.

 

If you are looking for a 3D TV, you may still find these two models hanging around

 

Samsung 85-inch UN85JU7100 4K Ultra HD

65-inch Sony XBR65Z9D 4K Ultra HD

 

Yeah, even if those were available, they're way too big for what I want.  I already have my "grail" tv in the LG, but I would consider replacing my 32" Vizio with something a bit better, IF I could find something that fits the area I currently have the Vizio.  I can put something there the size of a 42" as long as it has a very narrow (zero) bezel.  Otherwise I'll just hold on to what I've got.

 

On a side note, while 300-400 3D movies is indeed a drop in a bucket, you also have to realize that it more or less represents the number of movies that were shown theatrically in 3D.  Only 1 in a hundred or less movies that are released during a year get the 3D treatment.

Edited by Dudemeister, 13 December 2021 - 05:41 AM.

[wiesshund]

Yeah, even if those were available, they're way too big for what I want.  I already have my "grail" tv in the LG, but I would consider replacing my 32" Vizio with something a bit better, IF I could find something that fits the area I currently have the Vizio.  I can put something there the size of a 42" as long as it has a very narrow (zero) bezel.  Otherwise I'll just hold on to what I've got.

 

 

 

On a side note, while 300-400 3D movies is indeed a drop in a bucket, you also have to realize that it more or less represents the number of movies that were shows theatrically in 3D.  Only 1 in a hundred or less movies that are release during a year get the 3D treatment.

 

 

You will be hard pressed to find many in smaller sizes that are not beat up and expensive

 

And yes, not many movies do 3D in the theaters either.

It's a niche thing