91 replies to this topic

[Itchigo]

I have both.

 

I think it comes down to personal preference, but this is my experience...

 

I way prefer VR, and I rarely, if ever, turn on my full sized cabinet anymore. 

 

I built my first VP cabinet in 2009, and my current one is my fourth build.   I am super proud of the build, and spent hundreds (if not thousands) of hours playing it by myself, and with friends.  I said I would never sell it, because it is something I am really proud to have built, but if someone made me a decent offer, I think I would sell it now.

 

I built a separate 'Stubby' cab for VPVR and I love it and play it every day.  Once you experience VPVR with a good setup (PC, GPU and Headset, and Stubby), you will understand fully.  It almost feels like you are actually playing the real machine.. Videos do not do it justice.. It is really an amazing thing.   It just feels way more natural to be able to lean in and look at your shots, or duck down a bit to look under a ramp. You can go and walk behind the machine if you want to

 

A really nice side benefit, is there is absolutely no TV/Monitor lag to the flippers, as it runs at a solid 90+fps.

 

 

There are some cons...

 

VPVR is not social -  We do not have any online multiplayer, and sharing a headset with friends is kind of grody, and they cant really see properly while another person is playing.  It is pretty much a loner sport for now.

VR is still in development - VR has come a really long way in the last 7 years, and made leaps and bounds in the last few years, but it is still not perfect.  Depending on the headset you buy, there are differences with resolution and image quality.   The image that you see in VR is not as clear as looking at a 4K screen (especially for objects that are further away).  It is constantly getting better, and I never complain, but just making you aware that you need a pretty decent pc/GPU to run it at a decent 'resolution' (supersampling).

VPVR does not have as many tables yet - That said, we have over 200 now, and the list is growing daily

 

I highly recommend VR, But if you're looking for a social experience with family and friends, I would say to build the full sized cabinet. (you can always add VR to that also)

This message brought to you by the Council on VPVR.

[robertms]

..you can not see your beer or nachos through VR

 

Deal-breaker!!

 

Need to look around to get a beer, double tap the side of the Quest and you can have your beer..

 

Drinking a beer while wearing a VR headset?? That's blasphemy!

[studlygoorite]

 

..you can not see your beer or nachos through VR

 

Deal-breaker!!

 

Need to look around to get a beer, double tap the side of the Quest and you can have your beer..

 

Drinking a beer while wearing a VR headset?? That's blasphemy!

 

Don't tell anyone but I use a straw to drink my beer

[Karlor]

Good discussion, its kind of crazy to think VR is good enough for people to ditch their cabs! I'm not really surprised but still..

 

I would say if you have the room for a cabinet and you want to build one then do it! Also if you have older hardware around (pc parts, TVs, speakers) or just not that powerful of gear, you mite be happier building a cab. You will get more enjoyment out of your aging or weaker hardware in a cab then you would trying to run 15fps VR with the same set up.

 

For me the biggest issue is space. If your space limited then a stubby mini cab and VR is the way to go. Also if your a traveling type you can have a pretty insanely fun "mobile" experience with VPVR and a mini cab controller. Cant take your 1000 pound cab in an RV..

 

I play VR with people and its not as bad as they say. You can set it up so people can see the game play and what not. Its not perfect but its not that isolated. Buts its also no where near as good as everyone huddled around a cab laughing and having fun..

 

Sharing headsets can be gross, that is true... You ever put on a pair of swim trunks that are still wet and it feels kind of weird? Sharing headsets is like that but on your face and with sweat... someone else's sweat lol to avoid this use individual face pads and crank the air conditioning...

 

 

VR is the way of the future:

 

 

 

[Pete248]

> For me the biggest issue is space.

Thanks for bringing this up. In fact space was the original reason to overthink my plan to build a cab. I have the space for it but I could use the space it will occupy for something else like an additional real pinball machine.

But a stubby + PC still needs space. In total probably 1/3 of a standard cab. And it looks goofy. Who knows, maybe at some time we'll get 3D holographic displays. Then I am happy to have a full-size cab to house it.

My plan is to do the full size cab. While I'm playing 90% of the time myself, I want the option to occasionally play a game with family or friends. I have one real pinball machine but that is not suited for a quick play with people not deeply investigated into pinball because of the complex rules. Firing up a simpler EM or Medieval Madness simulation on VPX would be a better choice for these occasions.

Before actually starting with the build, I will make a test installation of VPVR on the system I've planned to use for the cab. The GTX 980 Ti might be borderline for VR but for some first tests it hopefully will do the job. If I like the VR experience, I'll upgrade the cab hardware to be fully VR capable.

Again thanks to all for sharing your experience.

Edited by Pete248, 28 August 2021 - 09:42 PM.

[Ben Logan]

 

 

 

 

I wanted a separate VR PC for other stuff also so having to fire up the cab to play racing sim didn't seem logical. My pinstubby is the front foot of a williams machine and is packed full contactors power supplies

speakers coin door so i still weighs a fair bit so you can still nudge reasonably well.

 

 

http://vpforums.org/.../pinstubby0.jpg

 

 

Well that makes sense, though i am not sure i would have room for the stubby, after i finished the FW-190 or P-51 cockpit.
I am not sure i would have room for a whole lot of stuff if i built one of those
Maybe i could nudge with the rudder? LOL

 

 

 At some point, the garage space became more valuable than the cab. 

 

Your mind isn't in the right place
That is not a garage, it is a small arcade just waiting to be assembled

 

 

If my garage didn’t double as recording studio for terribly amateurish  rock and roll, I’d agree wholeheartedly! 

[wiesshund]

If my garage didn’t double as recording studio for terribly amateurish  rock and roll, I’d agree wholeheartedly! 

 

 

 

 

 

No problem.
I have several cabs, an NES SNES N64 Gamecube PS1 PS2 an old 26" CRT TV
A couch, a Futon/Bed thingy, a fridge, some tables, a desk, some chairs, several pc's and a bunch of other miscellaneous junk
None of the music gear minds, it helps with room acoustics

As for why there is a pacman machine presently in the bathroom, please dont make me explain that again.

[Milos]

 

For me the biggest issue is space. 

 

 

This is my main issue too. As much as I would like to build full size cabinet, I simply don't know where to put it in my flat. Therefore, VR is only way that I can take.

[3rdaxis]

As a purest that wants nothing but the most realistic playing experience, VR is the only way. 

[rascal]

VR Rules, but I also like desktop and FSS.

[ronaldvg]

I tend to just think the opposit. Purist feeling is best with a cabinet. Stubby does not have the weight for nudging, not the size to feel the ball come rolling down nd feel all the other things that SSF transmits to your hands, resolution is not nearly as good as with a good 4K screen, you cannot glance up to see the DMD, instead you HAVE to move your head up (or you can zoom out more but then the resolution gets really terrible).

 

I use VR here on Quest 2 and on Reverb G2 with an RTX 3080 with supersampling at 2.0. At first it looks very good but when playing longer you notice you cannot read the labels on the inserts and things. VR is nice, but has a long way to go in my opinion. I play pinball in VR by the way (VPVR, FX2 and Star Wars VR) so not against it at all, but if I had to choose it would be a cabinet every time.

 

@wiesshund: you probably tried the Quest 1 (dark grey). Quest 2 (light beige) has much less screendoor effect. You could try it sometime, really nice VR also for a Flightsims and racing.

[Rawd]

I tend to just think the opposit. Purist feeling is best with a cabinet. Stubby does not have the weight for nudging, not the size to feel the ball come rolling down nd feel all the other things that SSF transmits to your hands, resolution is not nearly as good as with a good 4K screen, you cannot glance up to see the DMD, instead you HAVE to move your head up (or you can zoom out more but then the resolution gets really terrible).

 

You can weigh down the Stubby, or even use a full sized cabinet for VR.   SSF works perfectly fine in VR as far as I know.   You surely can glance up to see the DMD..  You can see it without moving your head just fine..  move your eyes like you do in real life.  "Zoom out for more resolution" - I am not quite sure what this means..   You don't zoom in and out in VR.. you have vision just like in real life and the machine is in front of you as a real machine would be.  My lockdown bar is 1:1 with the VR one to 1/8" 

Edited by Rawd, 05 September 2021 - 01:23 AM.

[oooPLAYER1ooo]

I tend to just think the opposit. Purist feeling is best with a cabinet. Stubby does not have the weight for nudging, not the size to feel the ball come rolling down nd feel all the other things that SSF transmits to your hands, resolution is not nearly as good as with a good 4K screen, you cannot glance up to see the DMD, instead you HAVE to move your head up (or you can zoom out more but then the resolution gets really terrible).

You can weigh down the Stubby, or even use a full sized cabinet for VR.   SSF works perfectly fine in VR as far as I know.   You surely can glance up to see the DMD..  You can see it without moving your head just fine..  move your eyes like you do in real life.  "Zoom out for more resolution" - I am not quite sure what this means..   You don't zoom in and out in VR.. you have vision just like in real life and the machine is in front of you as a real machine would be.  My lockdown bar is 1:1 with the VR one to 1/8" 

Rawd how does vr emulate yellowness? By yellow i mean the effect old school bulbs have on tables

[ronaldvg]

 

I tend to just think the opposit. Purist feeling is best with a cabinet. Stubby does not have the weight for nudging, not the size to feel the ball come rolling down nd feel all the other things that SSF transmits to your hands, resolution is not nearly as good as with a good 4K screen, you cannot glance up to see the DMD, instead you HAVE to move your head up (or you can zoom out more but then the resolution gets really terrible).

 

You can weigh down the Stubby, or even use a full sized cabinet for VR.   SSF works perfectly fine in VR as far as I know.   You surely can glance up to see the DMD..  You can see it without moving your head just fine..  move your eyes like you do in real life.  "Zoom out for more resolution" - I am not quite sure what this means..   You don't zoom in and out in VR.. you have vision just like in real life and the machine is in front of you as a real machine would be.  My lockdown bar is 1:1 with the VR one to 1/8" 

 

 

Weighing down the stubby will not work, legs are very close to eachother. You can perfectly use SSF in VR but then you need a full cabinet anyway.

 

What I mean by zooming is that you can calibrate the table (press 0 numlock) so that the table is a little bit nearer. Then everything is much sharper on the playfield. If you calibrate as normal, you will see more or the backglass but then the playfield gets worse to look at, but then you could glance up. Doing that, the DMD/LCD backglass will always be more out of focus because of the fresnell lenses in VR have a sweetspot somewhere around the middle.

 

You do not have to convince me, I use it myself. But I also want to point out the disadvantages i think VR pinball has. It is not all great. Friend of mine also uses it but with him it does not work half the time and getting 90 fps all the time depends very much on your PC, not the glasses you use. If you can get 90 fps on VR with some supersampling then you should also be able to get that much on a 4K screen with the same setup.

[wiesshund]

 

 

 

 

 You can perfectly use SSF in VR but then you need a full cabinet anyway.

 

 

 

No, you just need a 5.1 or 7.1 home audio receiver, with the speakers positioned appropriately
with physical electro mechanical DOF inside the stubby.
and probably an 80 pound block of sakrete in the bottom of the stubby if you nudge hella aggressively

[Rawd]

 

Weighing down the stubby will not work, legs are very close to eachother. You can perfectly use SSF in VR but then you need a full cabinet anyway.

 

Are you saying that SSF will not work properly in a half sized cabinet?   I understand that the exciters are placed, but it really makes a big difference?  (I don't know because I don't have SSF installed in my stubby yet).

 

What I mean by zooming is that you can calibrate the table (press 0 numlock) so that the table is a little bit nearer.

 

I still don't really understand this.   When you press '0', you will be standing in front of the lockdown bar (like a real machine), and you can see both the playfield and the DMD clearly without moving your head.

 

You do not have to convince me, I use it myself. But I also want to point out the disadvantages i think VR pinball has.

 

Just friendly discussion.   I just wanted to make sure you were using it properly.  Some people play seated with the scaling all wrong and need to 'zoom' in with the numpad buttons.   I play standing at it like at a real machine with the sizing at 1:1 with the real thing.   I agree that the resolution of the backglass could be better at that distance, but I don't need to move my head to see it

 

 

As far as nudging a stubby.. I agree..  its not the same.   Mine actually slides a bit on my laminate floor.   I've just got used to it I guess.

 

Edited by Rawd, 06 September 2021 - 12:43 AM.

[wiesshund]

@Rawd

Depends on what you think you want SSF to do.
Mostly it induces vibrations into the cabinet, auditorily it is not that great when you stick it beside some acoustic speakers, even mediocre ones

but it lets you feel the ball rolling around, since the ball sound is going out the exciters, as well as any other table sounds.
 

Not realistic perhaps, but i think most people using SSF when they already have DOF are specifically looking for beyond realistic feed back.

 

In a subby though, there is not enough distance to separate the exciters, so for example, the ball will never travel away from you
and the bumpers at the back of the table, are sitting right in your hands by the flippers, in feed back terms i mean.

 

Now if you are not looking for making the stubby Buzz, i would say forget SSF entirely, and connect your VR rig to an actual 5.1 or 7.1 little home theater system
and arrange the speakers appropriately for pinball (Which is so totally not appropriate for your blueray player LOL)

and it will sound almost like you are at a real table.

 

For what is is talking about on the zooming, you will have to head to youtube to see a bunch of vpxvr vids
They can see the table super good, just like they were intently hunched down over it
The VR room, they barely see, they have to look up slightly to see the rear of the table, moving their eyes wont help cause it aint in the picture
unless you have pupil tracking in your VR?
And to see the backglass, they have to look up at it, cause it isnt in the view.

Now mind you, that all makes perfect sense to me, if i am playing a real pinball or someone's fullsize vpin i can not really see the backglass or DMD either, unless i look up at it.
I dont stand at the table that way, so i mean that just seems normal, i wouldnt be interested in pulling the camera back i dont think

[Rawd]

For what is is talking about on the zooming, you will have to head to youtube to see a bunch of vpxvr vids
They can see the table super good, just like they were intently hunched down over it
The VR room, they barely see, they have to look up slightly to see the rear of the table, moving their eyes wont help cause it aint in the picture
unless you have pupil tracking in your VR?
And to see the backglass, they have to look up at it, cause it isnt in the view.
 

 

None of this registers for me.  In VR, you see just like you do in real life, albeit with about a 110 degree sideways FOV.  Youtube videos do not do VR justice and often cutoff the entire view that you see out of your periferal in VR..  Maybe that's what you are seeing in the videos.

 

Either way..  I'm not arguing for one way or the other.  But I definately don't have to move my head around to see the DMD while Im playing.

 

Believe me, I'm not arguing one way or the other for cab or VR.  I love them both

 

 

EDIT:   I just tested it..  In VR room Taxi..  When looking in a playing position, I can see the bottom of the lockdown bar, and the top of Gorbi's head on the backglass without moving my head.   When I went to take a video/screenshot of that.. the flippers were cuttoff, along with most of Gorbachevs body in the backglass.  So it looks like my Youtube videos are cutting off a good 35% of the Vertical FOV.

Edited by Rawd, 06 September 2021 - 03:26 AM.

[wiesshund]

 

 

 

None of this registers for me.  In VR, you see just like you do in real life, albeit with about a 110 degree sideways FOV.  Youtube videos do not do VR justice and often cutoff the entire view that you see out of your periferal in VR..  Maybe that's what you are seeing in the videos.

 

 

 

No, go watch the videos 1st
they are being taken through the headset (so they can be annoyingly shaky at times)

 

They are set up the same way i have and would set it up, because the view you use, i dont like, is not what i see in real life standing at a pinball table.
He does not like your view either (apparently?) but he also doesnt like having to look up, which that part i admittedly do not quite get, since that is what i have to do
even on a real pin, or roll my eyes in the top of my head, in which case i wont see jack because i dont have wrap around glasses.

 

The only reason i dont buy VR is, even is i spent 700 dollars plus custom lenses which may or may not work (Which aint happening in this reality), i can still see that the picture isnt exactly quite right, and i definitely can not read text because it is broken up

and if i can not read the altimeter and a bunch of stuff stuff with out having to zoom into the dash panel, it just aint gonna work for me, pinball would be my very lowest priority for VR

[Rawd]

 

No, go watch the videos 1st
they are being taken through the headset (so they can be annoyingly shaky at times)

 

They are set up the same way i have and would set it up, because the view you use, i dont like, is not what i see in real life standing at a pinball table.

 

ok. .We can just agree to disagree.  I don't need to watch a video  (I make most of them you probably see on Youtube lol )  I have seen through-the-lens videos also.   Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're saying. For me, in VR, I want it to feel just like I'm standing in front of a real machine, and it does   Youtube videos do not do VR justice or display what you see in the headset.  Check out my Youtube page, and you can see me walking around the VR rooms and looking at everything as I would in real life. (I cleared a 14'x14' room for VR)

 

Here is one of my videos.  (About 35% of the vertical is missing, so in VR you see much more up and down than the video)

 

 

ANd here is a very terrible through the lens shot.. just to show the vertical FOV..   I dont even think I got it all in...

 

Edited by Rawd, 06 September 2021 - 04:07 AM.