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Has anyone built replica chimes?


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#21 BorgDog

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 08:41 PM

 

 

The other issue is that these units were designed to run on AC but we feed them DC.  

 

On Gottlieb's at least they did use the same chime unit in later machines like some of the system 1's and some late em's that ran on DC.  They did however change coils in them, for example:

 

Joker Poker, system 1, 24vdc, use a A-17876 coil in the chime unit, 35ga-4000 turns for 24ohm.

Atlantis, em, 25vac I believe, use a A-5195 coil, 26ga-1305turns for 12.3ohm.

 

I can tell you from experience that it does not work right using the A-5195 in the later DC system 1 machines, too strong, it does work, just sounds bad.  I converted my Count-Down and Pinball Pool machines from the 3 tone sound board and speaker they came with to chimes, one of the units I picked up used had the A-5195 coils.  The unit in my vp cab has the A-17876.



#22 mjr

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 09:16 PM

On Gottlieb's at least they did use the same chime unit in later machines like some of the system 1's and some late em's that ran on DC.  They did however change coils in them, for example:

 

Joker Poker, system 1, 24vdc, use a A-17876 coil in the chime unit, 35ga-4000 turns for 24ohm.

Atlantis, em, 25vac I believe, use a A-5195 coil, 26ga-1305turns for 12.3ohm.

 

I can tell you from experience that it does not work right using the A-5195 in the later DC system 1 machines, too strong, it does work, just sounds bad.  I converted my Count-Down and Pinball Pool machines from the 3 tone sound board and speaker they came with to chimes, one of the units I picked up used had the A-5195 coils.  The unit in my vp cab has the A-17876.

 

Makes sense.  I think the rule is that any AC coil will run on DC, but will be stronger at the same nominal voltage (and more likely to overheat). Interesting that you could hear the difference, though!  I wouldn't have expected much difference other than being louder.  I guess it must have passed some limit where the excess energy went into undesirable harmonics or something.  As scottacus said, there are lots of subtleties to these little musical instruments.



#23 scottacus

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 10:06 PM

Good info BorgDog!  Coil field strength is inversely proportional to the number of wraps and wire gauge so bigger wire and fewer wraps (to a point) will create a stronger magnetic field.  I've always figured it had to do with increased current flow because the resistance and inductance would be lower with bigger wire and fewer wraps but I'm not certain if that is the exact cause.



#24 Outhere

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 10:46 PM

Repairing Electro-Mechanical (EM) 

Pinball & Coin Operated Games to 1978

 

http://www.pinrepair.../index1.htm#top



#25 DDH69

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 11:51 PM

Not sure if anyone has ever pulled apart a pinball DC and AC solenoid, but commercial AC solenoids often have a layered core to avoid eddy current loss (like an "E" core laminated transformer) whereas a DC solenoid has a solid core.  I know in quality AC solenoids they do something else in the core to offset the magnetic field so that it always has a positive magnetic force and stop AC chatter - I can't recall what it is though.  I believe these two factors are why DC solenoids really don't do so well with AC supplies.  The AC solenoid has a lower resistance and relies upon inductance much more than DC models, as such, an AC solenoid on DC draws more current and heats up more quickly.


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#26 DDH69

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 10:30 AM

So when I configure the chimes for DOF is chime #1 the highest or lowest note?  (smallest to largest chime bar length)


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#27 MikePinball

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 12:41 PM

So when I configure the chimes for DOF is chime #1 the highest or lowest note?  (smallest to largest chime bar length)

 

Did you consult the bible - MJR's Pinscape Controller Build Guide? It says on this page that #1 is the deepest (lowest) note - biggest bar for the non-musicians.


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#28 BorgDog

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 03:23 PM

 

So when I configure the chimes for DOF is chime #1 the highest or lowest note?  (smallest to largest chime bar length)

 

Did you consult the bible - MJR's Pinscape Controller Build Guide? It says on this page that #1 is the deepest (lowest) note - biggest bar for the non-musicians.

 

 

interesting, as I've built several tables with them programmed in the reverse order of that, the 10 point being the highest tone and being chime 1.  that is for gottlieb tables, not sure if the others used that same order or not.



#29 mjr

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 07:13 PM

 

 

So when I configure the chimes for DOF is chime #1 the highest or lowest note?  (smallest to largest chime bar length)

 

Did you consult the bible - MJR's Pinscape Controller Build Guide? It says on this page that #1 is the deepest (lowest) note - biggest bar for the non-musicians.

 

interesting, as I've built several tables with them programmed in the reverse order of that, the 10 point being the highest tone and being chime 1.  that is for gottlieb tables, not sure if the others used that same order or not.

 

Well, I did point out in there that there's no Federal Government Regulation about which DOF toy maps to which chime - it's just ad hoc, up to each table author to map them as they see fit.  It sounds like you went with the opposite scheme I suggested. 

 

It would have been awfully helpful if Arngrim had named the devices in the DOF config tool to suggest a specific tone ordering, like "Chime (Low Tone)", "Chime (Mid Tone)", "Chime (High Tone)", or something like that, so that table authors and cab builders had a reference point to agree on the layout.  Most of the other devices get that specific about labeling, so it would fit the overall design, I think.  I don't know if people would be happy about renaming them at this point, though - at least some percentage of tables would have it backwards from whichever scheme he picked.


Edited by mjr, 31 May 2019 - 07:15 PM.


#30 scottacus

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 11:07 PM

I'm with BorgDog, on the Willimas EM's that I've rebuilt the highest pitch is the smallest score and the lowest pitch is the biggest score.  Set em up how you like in Pinscape...



#31 DDH69

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 11:58 PM

Thanks folks.  The great news is that the middle note will always be correct  :D .  Other than that, the great news is its only a software configuration.


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#32 mjr

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 12:01 AM

I'm with BorgDog, on the Willimas EM's that I've rebuilt the highest pitch is the smallest score and the lowest pitch is the biggest score.  Set em up how you like in Pinscape...

 

I'll have to defer to the table designers and change the advice in the guide!



#33 mjr

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 12:18 AM

Out of curiosity, where do you guys see Chime 4 and Chime 5 fitting into this scheme? 



#34 DDH69

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 12:48 AM

Out of curiosity, where do you guys see Chime 4 and Chime 5 fitting into this scheme? 

 

I presume you are referring to the order of chimes and their tones which I will leave to the table designers.

 

My input on this is that I don't think they have much relevance in the virtual pinball realm.  If you look at the stats for DOF config you can see that Chime #4 is used on 25 tables (28 - 3 test / proforma), and Chime #5 is used on 5 tables (8 - 3 test / proforma).  Looking at some of the tables using #4 and #5 it looks to me like they are not all EM tables, clearly some SS tables are using the effect.  By comparison Chime #1 is used on 144 tables (again -3 for test / proforma).

 

I looked at these stats when I researching building replica chimes and decided that 3 was the magic number.


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#35 mjr

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 02:58 AM

I looked at these stats when I researching building replica chimes and decided that 3 was the magic number.

 

I agree - that was certainly the standard in the Gottlieb machines for a long time, and the Williams/Bally EM machines I've seen had either their own 3-bar chime units or just two shell bells.

 

I'll have to ask Arngrim what the rationale was for Chimes 4-5.  It looks like he added them some time later than Chimes 1-3, so I bet someone requested them with some specific use in mind.  Maybe he'd be amenable to renaming them to reflect that.  (And maybe renaming Chimes 1-3 while he's at it to be more concrete as well - "Chime Unit Low/Middle/High Tone", say.)


Edited by mjr, 01 June 2019 - 03:14 AM.


#36 scottacus

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 12:34 PM

Evel Knievel had four chime bars and there must be some that had five.



#37 mjr

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 07:24 PM

Evel Knievel had four chime bars and there must be some that had five.

 

Indeed!  I asked Arngrim about it, and he mentioned Black Jack as another 4-chime game.  Marco Specialties has a rebuild kit for the "Bally 4 bank" chime unit, so it evidently was a standard part used in a run of games.  Interestingly, looking at their diagram, it was actually two separate units: a 3-bar unit and a 1-bar unit, where the extra bar looked like it was roughly the same size as the large bar of the 3-bar unit.  Maybe it was a different metal composition to produce a different tonal quality or something.  Anyone know what that actually sounded like?

 

5-chime games might be in doubt, at least as far as the late EM/early SS era goes.  Arngrim's example of a 5-chime game is Stellar Wars, which does indeed have "Sound 1-5" listed in the solenoid table.  But a closer look at the operator's manual reveals that the game didn't come with a chime unit at all.  It came with an electronic sound board, with speaker output.  I think this must have been during the transitional phase where they switched over to electronic sound boards.  Here's my wild guess:  they wanted to switch from chimes to electronic sound boards, to save a few bucks and to give players a more modern experience, to compete with video games.  But they were still using MPU boards that only had solenoid outputs, and no data port to send commands to a sound board, like the modern MPUs have.  Traditionally, a few of the solenoid outputs were dedicated to drive chime solenoids.  So they designed a sound card that acted as a drop-in replacement for the chime unit, taking solenoid-level inputs as its data inputs to trigger 4-5 different sound effects.  Pair the new sound card with the old MPU and you have an electronic-sounding game.  (Youtube videos of Stellar Wars in action confirm that it uses electronic sound effects.  If I had seen the videos in isolation, I might have thought that they represented retrofits where people had replaced their chime units, but the operator manual doesn't seem to suggest that chimes were ever an option for original equipment for this title.)  Another title that Arngrim mentioned, Disco Fever, appears to have exactly the same setup, but with four "sound" solenoid outputs connecting to a sound board.  I'd guess that a number of Williams System 3-4 games from 1978-79 share this design.  So anyway, while there do seem to be some games with 5 "sound" solenoid outputs, it doesn't look like they were ever connected to actual chimes.

 

Based on all of this, I think my new revised ideal schema for the DOF layout, if I were starting from scratch, would be something like this:

 

Chime (High Tone)

Chime (Mid Tone)

Chime (Low Tone)
Chime (Even Lower Tone)  -->  ? to be revised if anyone can come up with a more informed description of the tonal quality

Shell Bell (small)
Shell Bell (large)

 

I'd add the shell bells as separate toys for the sake of fanatical cab builders who wanted to add authentic Bally 1970s style bells a la Fireball.  Most cab builders would just map those to Chime (High Tone) and Chime (Low Tone).


Edited by mjr, 01 June 2019 - 08:11 PM.


#38 MikePinball

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 07:42 PM

 

I'm with BorgDog, on the Willimas EM's that I've rebuilt the highest pitch is the smallest score and the lowest pitch is the biggest score.  Set em up how you like in Pinscape...

 

I'll have to defer to the table designers and change the advice in the guide!

 

 

I was happy in not knowing this because my Chimes sounded so great and I never noticed they might be wrong. Interesting how a simple question can shine a light on a source of inconsistency.

 

I'm throwing out the bible  ;) Seriously, it is not too late to get some consistency back into DOF and get it improved. It will be a process to change the EM tables that got it wrong but it is still worth doing.


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#39 mjr

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 07:59 PM

 

 

I'm with BorgDog, on the Willimas EM's that I've rebuilt the highest pitch is the smallest score and the lowest pitch is the biggest score.  Set em up how you like in Pinscape...

 

I'll have to defer to the table designers and change the advice in the guide!

 

 

I was happy in not knowing this because my Chimes sounded so great and I never noticed they might be wrong. 

 

Yeah, I don't think it's something that you'd ever notice on its own merits.  It's not like they were trying to play music on the chimes in the EM games; they're just random notes played randomly, so the order doesn't matter all that much.  (A few of the early SS games with chimes actually do play little tunes with them, but given that they only had three off-key notes to work with, they're not exactly symphonic.  Reverse the order of the notes and it would still sound like little tunes, just not the tunes the designer had in mind.)



#40 DDH69

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 10:46 AM

I'll have to ask Arngrim what the rationale was for Chimes 4-5.  It looks like he added them some time later than Chimes 1-3, so I bet someone requested them with some specific use in mind.  Maybe he'd be amenable to renaming them to reflect that.  (And maybe renaming Chimes 1-3 while he's at it to be more concrete as well - "Chime Unit Low/Middle/High Tone", say.)

 

 

I notice that chime 1 - 3  are now Chime Unit Low Tone, Chime Unit Mid Tone and Chime Unit High Tone.  A good result from our conversation - thanks.


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