85 replies to this topic

[koadic]

Thanks Rob. But this core.vbs deactivates the force feedback on my cab.
I'll try to indentify which part fixes the nudge and add it to my old core.vbs.
 
BTW, does yours also allows to modify the ball size?
 
Cheers.

I believe there is just one line at the end that enables the ledwiz stuff that you would have to add to the new core.vbs...

ExecuteGlobal GetTextFile("ledcontrol.vbs")

[rob046]

Thanks Rob. But this core.vbs deactivates the force feedback on my cab.

I'll try to indentify which part fixes the nudge and add it to my old core.vbs.

 

BTW, does yours also allows to modify the ball size?

 

Cheers.

 

Sorry but I have no clue how this might work with force feedback or whatever.  I'm not sure if you'd even want to use this on a cabinet.  I really don't know.  But this does work with that ball size.  That is why I wanted to make it so that the people who use this custom nudging don't have to worry about the VBS being out of date.

[bent98]

Thanks Rob. But this core.vbs deactivates the force feedback on my cab.
I'll try to indentify which part fixes the nudge and add it to my old core.vbs.
 
BTW, does yours also allows to modify the ball size?
 
Cheers.

I believe there is just one line at the end that enables the ledwiz stuff that you would have to add to the new core.vbs...

ExecuteGlobal GetTextFile("ledcontrol.vbs")

 

Yes you are correct .Its just one line and its the last one.

[Pinball999]

Thank you for your help guys, you have made my day!

And sorry if the question could have looked stupid, but it's so easy to miss one part of important info for newbies.

[blur]

Rob i'm looking at your tweaks and i just noticed that you have wrong directions for nudging:

 

 

If aDir < 5 or aDir > 355 Then aDir = aDir + 0 : aForce = 1.2 : ReturnPercent = 50

If aDir >= 5 and aDir <= 175 Then aDir = 60 : aForce = 1 : ReturnPercent = 90

If aDir >= 185 and aDir <= 355 Then aDir = 300 : aForce = 1 : ReturnPercent = 90

aDir = aDir + (Rnd-0.5)*15*aForce : aForce = (0.6+Rnd*0.8)*aForce

Nudge aDir, aForce

 

for front nudge ball goes up and then down - it should go down and then up

same for left and right nudges - ball goes diagonally up and then down - it should go down and then up

 

 

[Pinball999]

Thanks Blur. I could see something was odd but I did not have time to investigate yesterday night.

[rob046]

I didn't change anything since the last time I mentioned these tweaks to you in that other thread from a while back.  Maybe I need to read it all again because I don't remember the details of why I have things as I do.  I just know there was a reason for it.  How would you set the above code?  I can try it & tell you how it works for me, & if there is something I don't like I'll try to explain what it is.  I'm all for trying to optimize this code.  But like I said, I spent quite a bit of time tweaking & testing some months back, so I know I didn't carelessly create these settings.  That doesn't mean it all can't be improved though.  This is just what seemed to work with the more modest nudge strengths I like to use.

 

This is the thread where I dig into all this stuff & probably explain my settings here, & you were part of it too. 

http://www.vpforums....=19975&p=183567

Also, it might be safe to assume that part of the reason for different settings, at least on the sides, would be because I came up with the code you see now where each direction can have return strength set.  So one thing I was looking for was to tone down that return "snap".  Yes the directions are a little odd, but for example on the forward nudge, the "perceived" initial down force is still there.  Our eyes & brain still think the ball must be getting pushed from underneath, even though with these settings it actually isn't.  It still sucks that the ball can snap up just a hair when not touching an object, but since the ball is already traveling downwards usually, I find this to be less noticeable than the more severe ball snapping down like it would be with dir at 180.  All I care about is that it acts like it is, & gives the appearance that it is.  Yeah I guess its a little backwards, but so is VP9 nudging, so maybe it works out!

This code just acts as a band aid to try to cover up the flaws as best it can, but you can still tell flaws are there, it seems, no matter where these settings are at.

Edited by rob046, 12 March 2013 - 07:21 PM.

[Pinball999]

Hi Blur,

 

the nudge part in 3.33 looks really different.

 

If aDir < 20 or aDir > 340 Then aDir = aDir + 180
        aDir = aDir + (Rnd-0.5)*15*aForce : aForce = (0.6+Rnd*0.8)*aForce
        Nudge aDir, aForce

 

How should we modify Rob's tweaks to have the directions inverted?

Thanks in advance

Sorry Rob, I was typing my reply while you've posted yours.

I'll have a look at your thread to see how I could modify the directions.

[rob046]

Hi Blur,

 

the nudge part in 3.33 looks really different.

 

If aDir < 20 or aDir > 340 Then aDir = aDir + 180
        aDir = aDir + (Rnd-0.5)*15*aForce : aForce = (0.6+Rnd*0.8)*aForce
        Nudge aDir, aForce

 

How should we modify Rob's tweaks to have the directions inverted?

Thanks in advance

Sorry Rob, I was typing my reply while you've posted yours.

I'll have a look at your thread to see how I could modify the directions.

 

I honestly don't think you'll get better results by flipping all the directions.  I just tried it, & there definitely is a reason I don't like it.  If you flip things... then if you nudge to the left (from the right) the ball also initially moves left, which is counter to what happens on a real pinball.  Same in reverse from nudging to the right (from the left).  Then, if you flip front direction from 0 to 180, not only does the screen shake go down which is odd, but as I said in the above post, the ball will take a dramatic "jerk" downwards in mid air without touching an object.  This is why I have settings as I do.  It isn't a 100% fix for this, but its the lesser of 2 evils, I feel.  I feel the way I have it is a slightly better option.  There are more details for why I have things as they are, but its confusing to explain it all.  Probably best to read through that old thread.

Edited by rob046, 12 March 2013 - 07:39 PM.

[Pinball999]

Sure thing Rob, I'll have a look. Thanks for the explanations!

[rob046]

Please anyone can feel free to come up with something they think works better, & I'll certainly give it a shot.  I just think that with how VP9's default nudging is, there is no way to get it like VP8 nudging using external code.  So like I said, just try to find the lesser of all evils here.

[blur]

Here is your previous explanation:

 

My settings here don't even have fixed direction for front nudge, but basically he is saying that only counter force applies, as well as any direction settings that my custom version of his code has but I don't think his original version had this (other than the front nudge fix he mentioned). I removed that front nudge fix (then added his custom direction code for all directions) because it really wasn't any better than how it was, & if you use a small enough nudge strength to begin with, it really doesn't matter much.

 

What you do with these three lines is you fix preferred angles to 0, 60 and 300, force to 1.2 and 1 and counter force to 50% and 90%.

 

What i would do is invert those numbers so that ball first goes down and then up.

For 0 it means 180.

For 60 and 300 they would have to go to 120 and 240.

This is like nudging table diagonally from corner - when you nudge ball should go toward your hand (which is in the corner) and then back.

The other way to do it is to make it like slam tilt from the side with angles 90 and 270 - then ball goes directly to the side and back, not diagonally - depends how you like it.

Return force can also be what ever you like 0 - 50 - 100,

 

I see that you didn't like down angles because shaking goes wrong in that case - this might be true - but shake is wrong in FS any how since it is not rotated with the table so nobody uses it on a cab.

 

[toxie]

to get some more opinions on this, i modified the file due to blurs suggestions (so this is a 3.40 modified by blur, then by rob046, and then again by blur )..

from my first tries, i think this in fact seems really to be more realistic with the modified aDir..

Attached Files

•  core.zip   20.42KB   43 downloads

[koadic]

Alright, I have an idea to make adding alternative nudging to the core.vbs easier, modular, and persistent through core.vbs upgrades...

I have made changes the core.vbs with the ability to load an external file with a separate vmpNudge class that will be used instead of the default one should it exist. This way, you get the extra file once if you want it, and future versions of the core.vbs will load and use it should it exist, if it doesn't, it will keep the now current nudging behavior.

An example of what it should contain (taken from Blur's core.vbs version 3.33):

'--------------------'
' Alternative Nudge  '
'     by Blur        '
'--------------------'

' For use with core.vbs version 3.41 or greater'
' Move into folder with other scripts'

Option Explicit

' cvpmNudge2 (Object = vpmNudge)'
'   Hopefully we can add a real pendulum simulator in the future'
'   (Public)  .TiltSwitch    - set tilt switch'
'   (Public)  .Sensitivity   - Set tiltsensitivity (0-10)'
'   (Public)  .NudgeInterval - time in ms after which nudge count goes down'
'   (Public)  .TiempoFiltro  - nudge filtering time in ms'
'   (Public)  .ReturnTime	 - time after which return force bumps in'
'   (Public)  .ReturnPercent - return force strength (0-100)'
'   (Public)  .NudgeSound	 - set nudge sound, has to be in table'
'   (Public)  .TiltSound	 - set tilt sound, has to be in table'
'   (Public)  .NudgeMusic	 - mp3 file with nudge sound in music dir'
'   (Public)  .TiltMusic	 - mp3 file with tilt sound in music dir'
'   (Public)  .TiltObj       - Set objects affected by tilt'
'   (Public)  .DoNudge dir,power - Nudge table'
'   (Public)  .SolGameOn     - Game On solenoid handler'
'   (Private) .Update        - Handle tilting'

class cvpmNudge2
	Private mCount, mSensitivity, mNudgeTimer, mSlingBump, mForce
	Private mCount2, mReturnCount, mReturnDir, mReturnForce
	Public TiltSwitch
	Public NudgeInterval, TiempoFiltro, ReturnTime, ReturnPercent
	Public NudgeSound, TiltSound, NudgeMusic, TiltMusic

	Private Sub Class_Initialize
		' set defaults for all tables here or change them from your table script'
		NudgeInterval = 1000	' time in ms after which nudge count goes down'
		TiempoFiltro = 200		' nudge filtering time in ms'
		ReturnTime = 200		' time after which return force bumps in'
		ReturnPercent = 0		' return force strength 0-100'
		NudgeSound = ""			' sound has to be in table'
		TiltSound = ""			' sound has to be in table'
		NudgeMusic = "nudge.mp3" ' put this file in music dir'
		TiltMusic = "tilt.mp3"	' put this file in music dir'
		'StartShake				' uncomment to enable table shaking
		mCount2 = 0 : mReturnCount = 0 : mReturnDir = 0 : mReturnForce = 0
		mCount = 0 : TiltSwitch = 0 : mSensitivity = 5 : vpmTimer.AddResetObj Me
	End sub

	Private Property Let NeedUpdate(aEnabled) : vpmTimer.EnableUpdate Me, False, aEnabled : End Property

	Public Property Let TiltObj(aSlingBump)
		Dim ii
		ReDim mForce(vpmSetArray(mSlingBump, aSlingBump))
		For ii = 0 To UBound(mForce)
			If TypeName(mSlingBump(ii)) = "Bumper" Then mForce(ii) = mSlingBump(ii).Force
			If TypeName(mSlingBump(ii)) = "Wall" Then mForce(ii) = mSlingBump(ii).SlingshotStrength
		Next
	End Property

	Public Property Let Sensitivity(aSens) : mSensitivity = (10-aSens)+1 : End property

	Public Sub DoNudge(ByVal aDir, ByVal aForce)
		If mCount2 > 0 and mCount2 < TiempoFiltro\conTimerPulse then exit sub
		mcount2 = 1
		mReturnCount = 1
		If aDir < 20 or aDir > 340 Then aDir = aDir + 180
		aDir = aDir + (Rnd-0.5)*15*aForce : aForce = (0.6+Rnd*0.8)*aForce
		Nudge aDir, aForce
		If NudgeSound <> "" Then PlaySound NudgeSound Else PlayMusic NudgeMusic
		mReturnDir = aDir + 180
		mReturnForce = aForce * ReturnPercent / 100
		If TiltSwitch = 0 Then Exit Sub ' If no switch why care'
		mCount = mCount + aForce * 1.2
		If mCount > mSensitivity + 10 Then mCount = mSensitivity + 10
		If mCount >= mSensitivity Then vpmTimer.PulseSw TiltSwitch : If TiltSound <> "" Then PlaySound TiltSound Else PlayMusic TiltMusic
		NeedUpdate = True
	End sub

	Public Sub Update
		mCount2 = mCount2 + 1
		If mReturnCount > 0 Then mReturnCount = mReturnCount + 1
		If mReturnCount > ReturnTime\conTimerPulse Then mReturnCount = 0 : Nudge mReturnDir, mReturnForce
		If mCount > 0 Then
			mNudgeTimer = mNudgeTimer + 1
			If mNudgeTimer > NudgeInterval\conTimerPulse Then
				If mCount > mSensitivity+1 Then mCount = mCount - 1 : vpmTimer.PulseSw TiltSwitch
				mCount = mCount - 1 : mNudgeTimer = 0
			End If
		Else
			mCount = 0 : mCount2 = 0 : NeedUpdate = False
		End If
	End Sub

	Public Sub Reset : mCount = 0 : End Sub

	Public Sub SolGameOn(aEnabled)
		Dim obj, ii
		If aEnabled Then
			ii = 0
			For Each obj In mSlingBump
				If TypeName(obj) = "Bumper" Then obj.Force = mForce(ii) 
				If TypeName(obj) = "Wall" Then obj.SlingshotStrength = mForce(ii)
				ii = ii + 1
			Next
		Else
			For Each obj In mSlingBump
				If TypeName(obj) = "Bumper" Then obj.Force = 0
				If TypeName(obj) = "Wall" Then obj.SlingshotStrength = 0
			Next
		End If
	End Sub
End Class

And if you want different behavior, either modify THAT file or create your own File should be named NudgePlugIn.vbs and located along side all your other scripts. The core is updated to 3.41 and includes this feature. Let me know what you guys think.

See THIS post

Edited by koadic, 23 March 2013 - 09:07 PM.

[Slydog43]

Is this just for digital nudging?  Does this effect the analog nudging with a nanotech plunger device?  Thanks

[koadic]

Yes, digital nudging only... no effect on analog nudging.

[rob046]

Alright, I have an idea to make adding alternative nudging to the core.vbs easier, modular, and persistent through core.vbs upgrades...

I have made changes the core.vbs with the ability to load an external file with a separate vmpNudge class that will be used instead of the default one should it exist. This way, you get the extra file once if you want it, and future versions of the core.vbs will load and use it should it exist, if it doesn't, it will keep the now current nudging behavior.

An example of what it should contain (taken from Blur's core.vbs version 3.33):And if you want different behavior, either modify THAT file or create your own Let me know what you guys think.

 

I guess this would be nice to not have to update the core for every vbs update.  But I really think guys like you & Toxie should just cut out the middle man & try to fix this within VP.  This is really the only thing about VP that annoys me to no end.  To this day I don't think anybody has explained to me why VP8's great nudging was just scrapped for a completely backwards system in VP9. 

My best efforts to tweak blur's code I admit only take things from bad to somewhat tolerable, & for those who use 180 for front nudge, the screen actually moves downward when you nudge forward, its just a no win situation.   I really have only viewed this as a temporary fix until devs can properly fix things, but years are now starting to pass!  Also using this vbs fix, one thing I like to do is make tables a certain difficulty, but when some people use this custom code & some don't, it just isn't possible to do that.

[blur]

when i think about this now two years after the code is created - i would not export so many public variables.

 

public variables are only added because somebody said two years ago - yeah it's a great script but to make it official you should add public functions so that nudging can be controlled by authors from the table, so I added it.

 

however changes never made it to official version so now i say nudging should not be controlled from the table - it should be same on every table, just like pbw nudge options are removed from the table into vp options

 

for example - people that have tilt bobs will want big tiempofiltro - it makes no sense for table author to change it, or people that prefer some nudge angles - like 90, 270 and 180 will want it on every table, same goes for return force percent which someone likes and some don't, or shake that will be used mostly by desktop people and never by cab users

 

all these options could just be defined in initialize class routine (and every body could customize them there) - no need to export them

 

what should be exported is only nudge sound, tilt sound, nudge music and tilt music - so that authors can use authentic sounds on his table, and old options like sensitivity, tilt switch and update method - even though sensitivity could be forced for all tables also

i think i also play nudge sound on class init - just so that it is cached in memory cause every time i would first use it ball will stutter - and you don't want stutter when you are saving middle drain

 

some thing that should be added - that i only wrote in "core.vbs with better nudge" topic but never put it in downloadable core.vbs file (because nobody showed no interest except rob and chas - tnx for that guys!!!) is preferred angle and strength - these are the commands that rob added in his code - they are magic commands and can make every table you have behave the same - and nudge in same direction

 

it could be defined in the initialize class so that people just have to edit init to customize their code, without going to commands

and commands would be if preferred angle and force is defined use it - if not get it from calling variable

to make rob happy i would also split return force percent to front nudge percent and side nudge percent

 

and of course as i said few lines earlier - there is no need not to have preferred sensitivity also

 

i said this hundred times - but i will say it again - if you set return percent to zero almost nothing will change regarding current nudge system (so don't see any reason not to include it in official release)

if you set return % to 100 it is whole different story - very difficult to save anything cause ball will return to its original path and drain every time - except if you nudge just at the moment when ball is by the flippers and then you hit it with the flippers

Edited by blur, 22 March 2013 - 08:13 PM.

[rob046]

to get some more opinions on this, i modified the file due to blurs suggestions (so this is a 3.40 modified by blur, then by rob046, and then again by blur )..

from my first tries, i think this in fact seems really to be more realistic with the modified aDir..

 

Toxie are you a desktop user?

I just tried your tweaks, but it has one of the same main problems that caused me to want to tweak blur's code in the first place.  The ball gets "double bumped" with these settings.  For example, when you have 180 for front nudge with the return force, the ball will "jerk" twice on a single nudge when it is resting on or right above an object.  This is exactly why I go only with directions that send the ball initially somewhat forward (300, 60, 0).   I'm still well aware this is far from perfect, but if you use conservative nudge strength (such as 1 for each direction) it actually works out pretty well.  Sometimes I even think a strength of 1 is too high.

While I'm all for people just using whatever settings work for them, I do still long for the VP8 days when all things were equal.

when i think about this now two years after the code is created - i would not export so many public variables.

 

public variables are only added because somebody said two years ago - yeah it's a great script but to make it official you should add public functions so that nudging can be controlled by authors from the table, so I added it.

 

however changes never made it to official version so now i say nudging should not be controlled from the table - it should be same on every table, just like pbw nudge options are removed from the table into vp options

 

for example - people that have tilt bobs will want big tiempofiltro - it makes no sense for table author to change it, or people that prefer some nudge angles - like 90, 270 and 180 will want it on every table, same goes for return force percent which someone likes and some don't, or shake that will be used mostly by desktop people and never by cab users

 

all these options could just be defined in initialize class routine (and every body could customize them there) - no need to export them

 

what should be exported is only nudge sound, tilt sound, nudge music and tilt music - so that authors can use authentic sounds on his table, and old options like sensitivity, tilt switch and update method - even though sensitivity could be forced for all tables also

i think i also play nudge sound on class init - just so that it is cached in memory cause every time i would first use it ball will stutter - and you don't want stutter when you are saving middle drain

 

some thing that should be added - that i only wrote in "core.vbs with better nudge" topic but never put it in downloadable core.vbs file (because nobody showed no interest except rob and chas - tnx for that guys!!!) is preferred angle and strength - these are the commands that rob added in his code - they are magic commands and can make every table you have behave the same - and nudge in same direction

 

it could be defined in the initialize class so that people just have to edit init to customize their code, without going to commands

and commands would be if preferred angle and force is defined use it - if not get it from calling variable

to make rob happy i would also split return force percent to front nudge percent and side nudge percent

 

and of course as i said few lines earlier - there is no need not to have preferred sensitivity also

 

i said this hundred times - but i will say it again - if you set return percent to zero almost nothing will change regarding current nudge system (so don't see any reason not to include it in official release)

if you set return % to 100 it is whole different story - very difficult to save anything cause ball will return to its original path and drain every time - except if you nudge just at the moment when ball is by the flippers and then you hit it with the flippers

 

I think a lot of people are interested in better digital nudging, but I bet many are turned off by what it takes to get it.  Too confusing, too much work.  VP is already complicated enough for a casual user.  In some cases we sort of have to speak for the average user.  It has been years since VP8.  I bet many users don't even know how much better VP8 nudging was & so they don't know what they are missing.

 

I agree you need to find that sweet spot on return percentage in order to at least try to simulate real nudging.

I've actually tweaked my preferences again recently, just a little...

        If aDir < 5 or aDir > 355 Then aDir = aDir + 0 : aForce = 1 : ReturnPercent = 50
        If aDir >= 5 and aDir <= 175 Then aDir = 60 : aForce = 1 : ReturnPercent = 85
        If aDir >= 185 and aDir <= 355 Then aDir = 300 : aForce = 1 : ReturnPercent = 85

Edited by rob046, 22 March 2013 - 08:52 PM.

[jpsalas]

I'm a desktop user, and I remember VP8 nudging. I think VP8 nudging was perfect for desktop use. But for cabinet use it was good that's why the "VP9" nudging were invented.

Why not add both to the VP code? And simply selected from the script?