116 replies to this topic

[thewool]

Good luck with that test mate, it's got to work...

Did you see my edit about not setting a max texture size in VP? Long shot but thought I should mention it.

Will be back Tuesday if you need more info on my setup.

[rob046]

OK, it seems black lines are still there but maybe more faint (GTX 680). However, many tables definitely have issues. It seems that some or most of the black lines go away on tables that use ramps for lighting. But check out one of the many tables just using lamp objects for lighting, I can still see some black lines. On Mystic, no black lines (cuz no light object GI) but the couple issues I see are definitely fixable, but then I'm not sure I want to update & optimize the table just for the few people who might be forcing AA on it.

& when I'm working in the editor, I really don't want to have to exit VP & start up again just to avoid glitches every time. Nor do I want to be switching the control panel settings back & forth. So for me, AA still just isn't practical yet even though it is probably better now than ever. I just can't recommend this to people because of the glitches it can cause. I love visuals but other things are more important to get the intended experience. That said, if we can find a way to not lose any objects without restarting VP every time.... then we might really be onto something. In fact, that might be the solution to everything. It seems like any other issues might all be fixable.

Edited by rob046, 25 August 2012 - 09:56 PM.

[thewool]

Rob, for desktop users this probably isn't a big deal. For cab users the visual upgrade is worth exiting vp every time. Hyperpin will do this anyway (if the haze can be remedied).

I tried a bunch (but not all) of tables and saw no obvious issues, only better gfx. This is now my default setting even if i have to ditch HP for the time being.

[koadic]

I have yet to try running this on my cab which is running XP, but on my Windows 7 x64 pc I am unable to see any appreciable differences with fxaa at all, only when I use the settings originally posted by jimmy. Oh well, hope I have better luck with my cab.

[jimmyfingers]

OK, it seems black lines are still there but maybe more faint (GTX 680). However, many tables definitely have issues. It seems that some or most of the black lines go away on tables that use ramps for lighting. But check out one of the many tables just using lamp objects for lighting, I can still see some black lines. On Mystic, no black lines (cuz no light object GI) but the couple issues I see are definitely fixable, but then I'm not sure I want to update & optimize the table just for the few people who might be forcing AA on it.

& when I'm working in the editor, I really don't want to have to exit VP & start up again just to avoid glitches every time. Nor do I want to be switching the control panel settings back & forth. So for me, AA still just isn't practical yet even though it is probably better now than ever. I just can't recommend this to people because of the glitches it can cause. I love visuals but other things are more important to get the intended experience. That said, if we can find a way to not lose any objects without restarting VP every time.... then we might really be onto something. In fact, that might be the solution to everything. It seems like any other issues might all be fixable.

Rob, for editing / working on tables I simply create and use a second copy of the VPinball.exe, call it something else (ie VPnoAA.exe) and set up a profile in the the Nvidia control panel that leaves that one at the would-be normal defaults (so no exiting VP while working on tables). Alternatively, just make your profile the one for AA for a copy of the program and leave the global defaults as normal, however, I have seen in my front end (3D arcade) that I have to force the settings globally so my approach was the latter solution (on my cabinet system at least - my desktop development I don't use the front end so typically just run a special profile for when I want to check out AA).

Light objects and walls do show some fine black lines on some table but the places that I only really notice it (and don't like) are the GI section lines as the ones around lights / lamps often blend into the common black border around them anyway or just look like there is a border intentionally. I'm working on another GI8 mod and in that one I have chosen my GI8 zones more carefully and exactly matched the control points from one side to that of the other using no curved segments / smooth points. This plus cheating a bit by cutting through the middle of lamp light objects has made the GI lighting on that table almost a non-issue when AA is on. I also purposely ran my sections along the most feasible existing dark lines on the pf image. May be a bit of work for existing tables but definitely steps can be taken when modding or creating new ones to incorporate with almost no detection (GI sections at least). People can take a look when I release it as I have got permission from JP already to do so (keep an eye out over the next couple weeks).

[rob046]

I use VP-Man, so for something like this to work I'd either need to switch which exe to launch with each table every time, or have 2 copies of a vpt, one that launches with AA & one that doesn't. Yeah that is an OK solution I guess, I thought about doing something like that.
However, I do have a feeling that VP itself (Koadic?) could maybe have a piece of code added that can maybe refresh/reboot VP (or VP's cache?) on every table exit, & this problem would be fixed. The fact that this problem happens I think is a VP issue to begin with that has always been there. Performance shouldn't drop every time you launch a table without exiting the editor.

I also know that VP can start to get memory issues as well when you are loading up a bunch of tables or doing a lot of launching. Eventually it becomes too much & VP will crash. I wonder if this is all the same issue. That if 1 issue gets fixed, it just might fix the other one too.
This might sound a bit crazy, but I wonder if disabling page file (then restart pc) could solve this? Or I wonder if enabling VP's table caching (cache when you first load up a table when you 1st start VP, then the good cache gets saved) could help or hurt? Just have some effect. I don't feel like messing with all that but you guys can.

Rob, for desktop users this probably isn't a big deal. For cab users the visual upgrade is worth exiting vp every time. Hyperpin will do this anyway (if the haze can be remedied).

I tried a bunch (but not all) of tables and saw no obvious issues, only better gfx. This is now my default setting even if i have to ditch HP for the time being.

You aren't seeing any faint black lines on tables that use lamp object flashers? I think CFTBL should show some faint lines, but many other tables do this too. If you don't see them, maybe post a full size screenshot of tables like that without the faint lines, that would be convincing.
What is your GPU again?
& if the above is true with no faint lines on any tables, can you post all your GPU settings?

btw, has anybody remembered to see if this beta driver helps or hurts FPS? I usually check this but I forgot. I think FPS seem about the same, but I'm not 100% certain.

[toxie]

This is all pretty confusing now.. But thanx a lot for the various pics posted, i guess i have to do some more investigation on my own what really happens there and how to de-mystify it..

[JohnnyDoe]

This is all pretty confusing now.. But thanx a lot for the various pics posted, i guess i have to do some more investigation on my own what really happens there and how to de-mystify it..

Yeah, different settings in almost every post.
I understand that the settings work better in some setups than other, but I would appreciate if the first post would be updated to contain the suggested settings.

[chriz]

I then set AA back to default - and enabled FXAA in the Nvidia control panel. Breakthrough... everything seemed to have the benefit of AA (flippers/rails smooth) but the black lines had gone!! Tried all the black line troublesome tables (IJ, BK2000, TSPP, BSD) and they all look smooth with no trace of a black line! Honestly they look stunning.

nice find!
holy cow, thats really awesome. The black lines always took me back to nonAA... I have to try this ASAP

thanks again

[jimmyfingers]

This is all pretty confusing now.. But thanx a lot for the various pics posted, i guess i have to do some more investigation on my own what really happens there and how to de-mystify it..

Yeah, different settings in almost every post.
I understand that the settings work better in some setups than other, but I would appreciate if the first post would be updated to contain the suggested settings.

The first post does still contain the recommended settings at this point for AA based on the current driver, various peoples tests, and previous posts but also mainly due to the fact that FXAA is not functioning at all for VP in Windows 7 so is something that can only be used in some OSes (even though XP is a popular one). This has been verified by myself with 3 different system / OS combinations and I am willing to bet anyone else who tries it on XP vs. Windows 7 with 304.79 drivers will get the same result. Hopefully because FXAA is new, whatever is causing it to not work correct with VP and Windows 7 will be resolved. There are many of posts on the Internet about FXAA not working yet for many other games and was only introduced in the last few revisions of Nvidia drivers.

Plus, what I posted was more about a bunch of previously occurring artefacts / visual glitches that are no longer occurring in the latest driver and simply put the general recommendations as a reference but was not the main point of the topic / news flash. If other people find it confusing than disregard it but if you want to try and figure out how to tweak VP even further for optimal viewing a little effort is required. Also what wool has discovered is a different approach and that aspect still needs more research for things like why it varies from XP to windows 7, blurriness / haze and what FXAA actually does to perform it's shader based anti-aliasing. It is a great find and has lot's of potential but there will still likely be a configuration recommendation based on using FXAA and regular AA. Personally if FXAA was working in Windows 7 and I could confirm the same clarity / lack of blur or haze with the great aspect of no black lines, I would use it in a heart beat (and would expect it to be the defacto standard) as it does also get rid of the jaggies similarly to how a 4x AA setting appears to (just not in Windows 7 for some reason).

Maybe another topic cold be started by thewool regarding the FXAA aspects and research / findings of others trying to use it.

[JohnnyDoe]

Thank you jimmyfingers for your extended answer.
I have windows 7 on my setup, and no matter what settings I changed, I just didn't see any difference.
So I guess for now I'm in the dark and have to wait for another version of the driver to support this.

Edited by JohnnyDoe, 28 August 2012 - 08:09 AM.

[toxie]

I only have a simple theory on that: Due to the changes in the driver model of Win 7 (basically a lot less freedom for the gfx driver), it might be that it's not as easy to support ancient DX versions with FXAA as it is with Win XP..
But it might also be just lack of time they had on hand..

EDIT: just saw that there is also 306.02 beta now! i'll maybe give it a try this evening..

Edited by toxie, 28 August 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[JohnnyDoe]

I only have a simple theory on that: Due to the changes in the driver model of Win 7 (basically a lot less freedom for the gfx driver), it might be that it's not as easy to support ancient DX versions with FXAA as it is with Win XP..
But it might also be just lack of time they had on hand..

EDIT: just saw that there is also 306.02 beta now! i'll maybe give it a try this evening..

Thanks for the tip, I'm definitely trying this one out.

[toxie]

okay, after fooling around a bit more, here some insights:
1) Anisotropic filtering works out of the box and seems to be pretty safe to always crank up to max (makes sense, as it only affects the textures themselves)
2) Antialiasing Mode/Setting: Choosing something here leads to an improvement in antialiasing, but screws up all animated objects on the table as it adds an "outline" to them (unfortunately also makes sense, BUT there might be a way to actually fix this in the VP code itself, as i suspect that there could be some trick added to the rendering of animated objects to help get rid of the outlines, but no guarantee that this works!)
3) FXAA: As this is a simple postprocessing filter that works on the final picture and not the "intermediate" rendering steps, there are no outlines at all -> instant win! (although also doesn't work on my win7 machines i can test on, and who knows if this will ever be fixed in the driver (i used the 306.02 beta))

[teppotee]

Anyone else having random problems with this driver version?

I installed it to my Win XP based cab and at first it seemed to work fine with FXAA. However when trying more tables I started to have problems loading few tables.

For example Demolition Man and Medieval Madness didn't start at all. Pinmame window remained black and after few sounds the table froze almost totally. This happened with or without FXAA setting. I tried deleting nvram and cfg for the tables and few times it actually worked. But next time the table froze again and even deleting the files didn't help again.

Changing the Nvidia settings didn't make any difference. So to me it looks like maybe there are some issues with this driver version (at least in my setup). Just curious if anyone else is having similar issues or if there are any suggestions / fixes other than rollbacking the driver.

[jimmyfingers]

Anyone else having random problems with this driver version?

I installed it to my Win XP based cab and at first it seemed to work fine with FXAA. However when trying more tables I started to have problems loading few tables.

For example Demolition Man and Medieval Madness didn't start at all. Pinmame window remained black and after few sounds the table froze almost totally. This happened with or without FXAA setting. I tried deleting nvram and cfg for the tables and few times it actually worked. But next time the table froze again and even deleting the files didn't help again.

Changing the Nvidia settings didn't make any difference. So to me it looks like maybe there are some issues with this driver version (at least in my setup). Just curious if anyone else is having similar issues or if there are any suggestions / fixes other than rollbacking the driver.

Which driver version are you referring to, the original one I posted about (304.79) or the updated beta Toxie referred to with hopes that FXAA might be working for Windows 7 / VP (306.02)? I haven't had any trouble with the 304.79 drivers on my two systems, however, I spend little time in my Windows XP partitions except to test stuff and verify some things before releases of my MODed tables.

[teppotee]

I'm using the first version in this thread 304.79. Seems unusable at the moment. Unfortunately because when it worked the FXAA looked really nice.

I might give the newer version a try tomorrow to see if it helps. If not... then back to 182.50...

[punish]

When i have FXAA activated , and i "nudge (tilt)" the table , Its freezing and I have to restart my computer.
I start thinking it had with the textures to do, The Texture in the table is a litle bit blurry.

Gonna install the new Drivers tomorrow and test.

my setup is

Intel Core2Duo 2.5ghz
Gigabyte GTX 560 , on (304.79) shall testing the new tomorrow.
4gb Nvidia Sli DDR2
200gb SATA HDD

Edited by punish, 28 August 2012 - 11:21 PM.

[toxie]

some more (tiny) insights:
1) brute force oversampling (2x,4x,8x) delivers best results (crispiness of rendering and 'bugwise'), but is plagued by some black outlines around animated objects (which i hope i can resolve within the VP code itself)
2) more approximate antialiasing techniques (CSAA and Q variants) have additional problems with alpha (which might not be solvable that easily in VP)
3) all texture filtering enhancements are basically for free and don't introduce artifacts on my GTX 560 (anisotropy 16x, quality very high)
4) FXAA only works with XP even with the new beta 306.02 (and IMHO it blurs the table waaaay too much, but that might be a matter of taste)

[thewool]

Toxie if you can resolve the AA / black line issue in the code that would be awesome. Do you think this is possible?

Had some more time to play with FXAA last night. To me it's the best option at the moment but only when launching VP from a stand alone start. If you launch via Hyperpin it's blurry and only clears by a gfx change in that area e.g. flasher, ball rolling over. I tried all sorts of settings to find out why this happens when using HP but couldn't get to the bottom of it. Also for me it's only unstable when using an AA combo for other programs.