51 replies to this topic

[mariozeferino]

i agree but most things done lately to improve visual pinball are workarounds, so this is another workaround.
i have decrease both because i think those kind of solid inlanes are intented to gain speed.

and by the way this is the least important thing on my setting, have you see the trapping trick on the video, wastn t it impossible to do on visual pinball?

Edited by mariozeferino, 20 May 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[pinuck]

while playing the Centigrage 37 there, had the ball bounce 5 or 6 times off the top of the slingshot all within the space of about and inch.

Slingshots on Centigrade 37?

[The Loafer]

mariozeferino: I own a real firepower and although I do find the ball going through the flipper lanes to be a little too fast (in fact, the game itself was a little too fast but perhaps this is do to my pin needed some new rubbers, etc), I do find the flipper control in this video to be pretty awesome. I would be inclined to try and tweak those settings to just slow things down a bit but can it be done to preserve the flipper control? That's really quite awesome

(obviously from my comment, I've not tried this new version much, lack of time amongst other duties this weekend but this vid is going to motivate me to more than just try it; well done JimmyFingers)

[mariozeferino]

mariozeferino: I own a real firepower and although I do find the ball going through the flipper lanes to be a little too fast (in fact, the game itself was a little too fast but perhaps this is do to my pin needed some new rubbers, etc), I do find the flipper control in this video to be pretty awesome. I would be inclined to try and tweak those settings to just slow things down a bit but can it be done to preserve the flipper control? That's really quite awesome

(obviously from my comment, I've not tried this new version much, lack of time amongst other duties this weekend but this vid is going to motivate me to more than just try it; well done JimmyFingers)

yes, outlanes and overall speed can be slowdown a bit wiyhout loosing flipper control. the main key to the flipper control is the increase of gravity constant to give the ball more weight

congrats for owning such a nice pin

[The Loafer]

I wanted to specify: Every now and then, the ball can and does just whip super fast through those lanes on the real pin. However, it's not common as it is in the video, but it does certainly happen. I see what you are saying about gravity constant. On a second look though, it almost seems like the ball speeds up as it goes down the playfield. Is that my imagination? Is that an effect of the gravity constant setting?


Yep, won't be selling that one anytime soon. My #1 favorite pin (back in the day) was Superman but there's very little chance I ever own it, too much of a headache maintenance wise is what I've heard of the Atari pins.

[mariozeferino]

I wanted to specify: Every now and then, the ball can and does just whip super fast through those lanes on the real pin. However, it's not common as it is in the video, but it does certainly happen. I see what you are saying about gravity constant. On a second look though, it almost seems like the ball speeds up as it goes down the playfield. Is that my imagination? Is that an effect of the gravity constant setting?

yes the ball speeds up, by increasing gravity the ball gets heavyer so it gain more accelaration on the way down. didn t it appens on real pinball?

[The Loafer]

I'm probably getting this wrong, but the ball being heavier should not make it go faster downwards. Galileo and Newton I think proved that, at least not in the context of gravity. However, its speed could be affected by how it bounces off stuff. Really not an expert in this area but I will play around with this myself and see. Whatever I might be perceiving re: speed, everytime I look at the video, I just love the ball control, it's almost puts me in a trance because you don't usually see that in a pc pin.

[mariozeferino]

I'm probably getting this wrong, but the ball being heavier should not make it go faster downwards. Galileo and Newton I think proved that, at least not in the context of gravity. However, its speed could be affected by how it bounces off stuff. Really not an expert in this area but I will play around with this myself and see. Whatever I might be perceiving re: speed, everytime I look at the video, I just love the ball control, it's almost puts me in a trance because you don't usually see that in a pc pin.

the ball has always look to light to me, so this is the only way i found to to make it heavier.

[rob046]

As for the ball catching (drop catch or trapping as you called it), that is actually nothing new. It has been possible to do that for a long time now in VP, since VP9 came out. Not everybody chooses to optimize settings for it though. & btw you don't want to do drop catches by setting the recoil that low. That makes drop catches way too easy. & btw, when talking about this I always like to note that drop catches in real life are more doable on those Williams flippers, but it is quite a bit harder on the old Gottlieb or Bally/Stern flippers.
I can make drop catches possible without jacking up the gravity or having any recoil, just tweaking return strength. I'm going to be releasing something shortly, maybe today, that is a good example of this. Also the table control loafer mentioned, that can also be accomplished without jacking up gravity & adding recoil. I don't really like recoil because it is something I rarely see on my real games. Maybe you see it a little more often on EM's.

& this leads into ball weight. Yes by default the ball is a bit floaty in VP9, but that is why almost every author puts gravity at 1.6-1.7. I was going even a little higher than that (never more than 2 though), but when going to the 1.7 range or more, this starts messing with the drop catches & causes flipper glitches. & there are other reasons for the setting that most use more than just that. But I would say just use the gravity that jimmy used in this table, then if you need more weight simply start using the table slope setting.

Edited by rob046, 20 May 2012 - 11:22 PM.

[mariozeferino]

have you tried what i suggest? because the first time i brought up the increase of gravity
constant to 2, someone says thats not intented to work that way and it should be leave at 1,
now most tables come with at leats 1.6, so before saying anything you should give it a try.

[rosve]

have you tried what i suggest? because the first time i brought up the increase of gravity
constant to 2, someone says thats not intented to work that way and it should be leave at 1,
now most tables come with at leats 1.6, so before saying anything you should give it a try.

I agree that the gravity setting should be higher than the 1,67 that is used on many tables. I use 1,9 on my latest B2S mods and that makes the ball behave much better. Never tried going up to 4 but I will give it a try.

[StevOz]

I disagree I see 1.55 as the ideal gravity, then again it's a slope vs gravity situation here I go for a 6 to 7 slope myself which I know is what most pinball tables to play are actually set at.

[jimmyfingers]

while playing the Centigrage 37 there, had the ball bounce 5 or 6 times off the top of the slingshot all within the space of about and inch.

Slingshots on Centigrade 37?

Yes, right you are sir, I meant the top of the rubber lane guides. No slings in that one The top of these rubber lane guides or similar ones like Sinbad and simply the "usual" slingshots top rubber pegs are where I spend a lot of my time focusing on how a bounce looks so I kinda forgot what the real item below the peg was, doh!

Edited by jimmyfingers, 21 May 2012 - 11:13 PM.

[jimmyfingers]

i have no words to describe this so a picture and a video are better than 2000 words

Just read the recent posts and looked at the video. A couple things to keep in mind, IMPORTANT: you shouldn't be disabling the "hit" event checkbox when changing other physics / settings for an object as that is going to disable potential items in the script from occurring such as sound processing as well as any other "object_hit" routine / collection group processing. You indicate the top side metals with the hit unchecked and this is not the default for the table as there are sounds associated with those hits.

The flippers in this table are different to start with at a scripting level, as I mentioned in my file description, so the changes you are making and what you can do are likely related somewhat to the "light tap" routine I added. The routine, in an "un-altered" download of this table will allow you to quickly release and then repress the same flipper and trigger a variably less strength flip, which works well for flipper passes using the pegs of the corresponding bottom slingshot. It essentially is a timer / routine that once you release a flipper, takes a few 10ths of a second to "charge" back up to full strength setting (the script dynamically reads the current flipper strength (set at the table editor level) then runs a few iterations of the timer loop each time bringing it back up closer to full power. You can get about 6 different shot strengths out of it depending on how quickly you let go and repress. The routine(s) and variables can be found just under the solenoid routine callback declarations very close to the top of the script. There is also a component that drops the speed dramatically just for the backswing to help with a natural looking return, or even, half return, while you are trying to flip quick. This drop in speed while the backswing (return to start) portion of the flipper action is also very possibly working into your settings changes regarding the catches but it definitely is doing things under the hood that you or anyone else should be aware of that would make some of these abilities not necessarily transferable to other tables without the corresponding subs / timers I added.

I do have to admit that the video looks decent and doesn't look as whacky as I thought it might with the physics changes you proposed / set and that it does indeed look like your trap it a couple times. But definitely try those with my new flipper routines disabled (old routines restored) and see what you get as well. Also, I wouldn't necessary uncourage any wild changes in table physics with the B.M.P.R. as I really can't say what things may happen when outside of the more "normal" and typical settings - plus may affect some operation of some other things on the table in general. However, if it works for you and you like it go for it. I am ingrigued a little from the video despite these values I would have never considered.

[rob046]

have you tried what i suggest? because the first time i brought up the increase of gravity
constant to 2, someone says thats not intented to work that way and it should be leave at 1,
now most tables come with at leats 1.6, so before saying anything you should give it a try.

I spend lots of time on this stuff. Probably too much, as have guys like jimmy & JP. I've tried a large range of gravity settings, up to & maybe beyond 4. I went ahead & tried it here on FP anyhow. What I found, I'll just refer back to what I already said. Stay tuned, I'll have a chance to show what I'm talking about. & I'm not saying that the video doesn't look good, I'm saying that just as good if not better can be accomplished while using more standard values for gravity & other things, which won't cause adverse side effects. but by all means if certain settings work for you, go for it, I just wouldn't recommend such large value changes to the average user unless they know how to tweak code & other settings accordingly.
& yes this might not be the best table to experiment on due to what jimmy said above.

Edited by rob046, 22 May 2012 - 12:35 AM.

[Wahreez McDermot]

I just wanted to thank you guys for all the work you are putting in on this. I tried the original modded version of Fireball and really found it to be quite fun, perhaps a bit bouncy, but, it was a lot of fun. The ball definitely felt more 'alive' as it was harder to predict what might happen.

An example on the original version of Fireball by NF/UR using the slingshot at max with the enter key always causes the ball to enter the far right rollover lane. With these new settings though it would deviate between either of the top right lanes and ball behavior was not nearly as predictable which I enjoyed.

Anyways, thanks a lot for all the work you are all putting into this!

[CaptainNeo]

I wanted to specify: Every now and then, the ball can and does just whip super fast through those lanes on the real pin. However, it's not common as it is in the video, but it does certainly happen. I see what you are saying about gravity constant. On a second look though, it almost seems like the ball speeds up as it goes down the playfield. Is that my imagination? Is that an effect of the gravity constant setting?


Yep, won't be selling that one anytime soon. My #1 favorite pin (back in the day) was Superman but there's very little chance I ever own it, too much of a headache maintenance wise is what I've heard of the Atari pins.

Actually, atari pins are a dream to own and work on. Super easy, because there is basically only 1 board running the whole show. Very wide traces and easy to fix as well. Plus, the manual has step by step instructions, for something that would go wrong. it's like a choose your own adventure book. Does this work? If yes go here, if no, go here. Now is this working? Go here if yes, go here if no.


Don't be scared off by Atari. I wish Bally, williams, sterns, and gottlieb, made their games as user friendly back then.

[mariozeferino]

to Jimmyfingers

of course i am aware that your scripting are the main cause of it, and i loved it but still found the ball to light so i tried tweaking a litle bit. but i think i will decrease a litle the gravity constant because the ball doesn't jump on the targets anymore

Edited by mariozeferino, 22 May 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[jimmyfingers]

mario,

Can you confirm the settings you had for the momentum routine as it was when you made the video that you posted earlier in the thread. When I set the physics with your suggested settings and have the momentum routine on (with the default values from the MOD download), the ball is getting sucked down the table like there's a black hole in the drain. Not of total suprise to me all things considered.

So, are you running the table in the video with the momentum routine off and just your physics settings from the picture? When I try that it still doesn't seem to look like it does from the video. Did you leave momentum on but turn down some of the momentum parameters? The video just cuts off the apron so I can't see the B.M.P.R. test / status lights which makes that part unverifiable.

Can you please confirm exactly if you've got the B.M.P.R. on or off and what is set / changed in addition to the table physics you've posted cause I just can't reproduce your video in the two main ways I can fathom based on this MOD and your screen shots. Do you have an accellerometer? Sometimes those go off a bit and need calibrating which can throw off how things look on one machine to the next.

Thanks.

[moondrummer78]

One funny little thing to keep in mind with all of this is whether you have an accelerometer for analogue nudging in your cab and how often you calibrate it. In my cab, which is sitting on thick carpet, I find that sometimes my table slope gets affected by the accelerometer. Not a huge amount, but maybe the equivalent on adding a degree to the table slope setting in VP.

I really noticed this the other day after playing a few games of the new AFM B2S and realizing I had not checked the PBW ACC. -- I went back in and did that, retstarted the table and suddenly the ball was rolling faster!