444 replies to this topic

[Dazz]

First of all, while there where a lot of other people with the same idea, kuddos for bringing the ledwiz expansion thing to real life. I think some people could really benifit from that.

The thing that suprises me, is that you are producing something for a product that is not even available or developed, namely the Arduino for pinball.

There is a small group of people spending loads of time and cash into a new feature for digital pinball, hoping to take 'toys' to the next level, developping both software and hardware for it.
That group is planning to release the software to the community for free and maybe (just maybe !!) getting some small part of there investment back by selling some pieces of hardware, like the driverboard for Arduino and adding some extra ports via the by you refered 595 shift registerers.
You should almost think that you would have known that people are developping such a board....

My personal opinion of this that it lacks respect on almost every point i can think off.

Erwin

@ the moderators and admins, if you think I cross the line with this posting please remove it.

How would he know that something was already in development if it hasn't been announced or bought to the forefront yet?

Ok, so I read your Audrino project description and this description... To an untrained person, such as my self, these sound like completely different projects. It actually sounds like you would want to run these two projects in conjunction with eachother. Your project actually sounds like it's going to be a replacement for the LedWiz and help offload commands between VP .vbs and toys.

The project in the thread sounds like it will allow us, with little to no electrical experience, to interface toys easier. No need to install diodes, fuses, etc.

Am I completely off base in my thinking here?

Edited by Dazz, 22 February 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[zebulon]

First of all, while there where a lot of other people with the same idea, kuddos for bringing the ledwiz expansion thing to real life. I think some people could really benifit from that.

The thing that suprises me, is that you are producing something for a product that is not even available or developed, namely the Arduino for pinball.

There is a small group of people spending loads of time and cash into a new feature for digital pinball, hoping to take 'toys' to the next level, developping both software and hardware for it.
That group is planning to release the software to the community for free and maybe (just maybe !!) getting some small part of there investment back by selling some pieces of hardware, like the driverboard for Arduino and adding some extra ports via the by you refered 595 shift registerers.
You should almost think that you would have known that people are developping such a board....

My personal opinion of this that it lacks respect on almost every point i can think off.

Erwin

@ the moderators and admins, if you think I cross the line with this posting please remove it.

How would he know that something was already in development if it hasn't been announced or bought to the forefront yet?

Ok, so I read your Audrino project description and this description... To an untrained person, such as my self, these sound like completely different projects. It actually sounds like you would want to run these two projects in conjunction with eachother. Your project actually sounds like it's going to be a replacement for the LedWiz and help offload commands between VP .vbs and toys.

The project in the thread sounds like it will allow us, with little to no electrical experience, to interface toys easier. No need to install diodes, fuses, etc.

Am I completely off base in my thinking here?

@ Pixel.......not cutting your grass here, your project is what it is, a tremendous effort and I would imagine a great accomplishment. Yes, my board could be used to that effect if someone wanted too, it can also be used as I intend to, to run the toys off the LEDWiz and by changing a few jumpers, run other toys off an arduino, much like Maxxsinner did with his side art....or did you think that one up too? And yes, I did know of your boards, we have spoken off board and I have seen your boards, as you have seen mine. My boards are running circuits that I posted in my build thread as far back as November of last year, that I offered freely to the community. Any arduino interface circuit that I have is based upon an open source design found here....

http://www.arduino.c...torial/ShiftOut

as i'm reasonably certain yours are as well. Just a few posts ago I posted that I would encourage anyone interested in this concept to consider the other boards that are in development as well before deciding on what they wanted to purchase, and I stand by that statement. If someone has the intention of switching over to your software, then it stands to reason that they would benefit by going with your design and hardware as code will have been developed specifically for that design. But for those that wish to stay with the LedWiz, or wish to add an arduino to the mix, then I feel that I have just as much right to offer a solution as you do, in fact, there are areas that I was developing that I abandoned strictly because it would conflict with your project and work. Would I be justified in attacking your project if I saw optos appear in your boards? I don't think so, but obviously you do. Personally, I would have no problem with that, I think that anything that anyone brings to this table can only benefit the community as a whole.

The funny thing is, we're bickering over something that I haven't even verified to work beyond a couple of circuits on a breadboard and time spent laying out designs; something that I haven't decided if, as, when or how I would sell; and something based in part on an open hardware design.

Anything more you have to say to me on this subject would probably be better served by pm or email. I don't think the community cares too much in flame wars, I know I don't.

My apologies to the mods and community for my little rant.

Edited by zebulon, 22 February 2012 - 10:01 PM.

[BubleHEAD]

Well, I would only like to offer this observation from the peanut gallery...

No one is going to get rich selling arduino interfaces or led-wiz compatible driver boards to the pinball hobby community...

Each one of you will sell a few handfuls of boards to a few handfuls of cabinet builders... In a market as niche as this, lord knows I have thought of developing a product, but there is only a small amount of hobby money out there to tap into... developing a board for this community is more a labour of love than a labour of financial gain. If you feel threatened in this market, get yourself a patent attourney and put some pat pending on your work, however the ROI on that expenditure would probably get your head examined by the board of trustees

But seriously, are we not all in this together?
I don't know about you but I'm building my own pin cabinet to play pinball, have fun and combine my love of pinball, computers, electronics, LED's, buzzers, bells and whistles. Anything I develop along the way is being given back to the community. Here is a list of reasons to build your own cabinet... I think I can say "All of the above" and be completely honest in my answer. And notice, "Get rich selling stuff to the pinball hobby community" is not on the list.

I'm building my own cabinet because:
A) It's cheaper than buying one
B) I know how to do it (build a PC and install all the software)
C) I already own a empty pinball cabinet
D) I can solder
E) The Software is free and available
F) I love to play pinball
G) I don't have room for 100's of real machines
H) The wife said I could
I) The wife gave me a big enough budget to actually do it.

BH

[Zablon]

I for one would say ANY new things people want to bring to the table is a good thing for the good of the hobby. People like choices and different approaches help spark new ideas that may not otherwise have been thought of. Imagine what would be said if the LEDWiz people said something like that when talking about making the Arduino?

That being said, Zebulon, do you know if adding this additional board would add any noticeable additional lags/latencies to the timings of such things?

[zebulon]

Personally, I'm considering the matter closed.

In answer to your question Zablon,(nice handle BTW ), unfortunately this is not a solution to the latency issues of the LEDwiz, that's an avenue being investigated by Pixel's project. What this does do, is centralize your connections to your toys and does away with a lot of extra boards, relays, etc. Mount these beside your led wiz, and you just run wires off from that point directly to the lights, leds, motors, what have you. It just seems a little easier for some people to deal with 2 wires per item than having to learn how to wire a dual H bridge, relays, etc.

I intentionally did not put any diodes on the design beyond those built into the components themselves, as I'm a big believer in locating them as close to the source of the feedback as possible. I prefer to install mine at the motor/coil of the toy in question. Nothing says you couldn't bridge the output terminals with them though.

[Spektre]

A few hours work and a little refining of the circuits in my build thread and voila.......




This board will accept either High (+) or LOW (-) inputs and will power the output with whatever power supply you care to use on the 3rd terminal of each block. This means that you could power each output with a completely seperate supply voltage if you cared to.
For Power input for the opto, you have terminals for 5v, 12v and four grounds (power supplies and ledwiz must be grounded to one of these terminals for the circuit to work, they're all tied together on the board).
By using a 5v signal line from the LEDWIZ and a 12v supply signal for the opto output, the LED wiz will be completely isolated from the load...if you short out an output, the ledwiz doesn't get affected.
By switching the jumpers in the 2 banks in the middle of the board, you switch the input from ledwiz (LOW) to Arduino (HIGH).
Finally, the 16 power MOSFETS are good for up to 55v @ 16A.....far more than anyone needs, but good for those that are running a 48v knocker or for Chriz who lights up his neighbourhood with his machine. Being enhanced MOSFETs, they will pass the PWM signals needed to run your Cree's through the 16million colours available if you so desire. Using a BUZ101s power transistor also gives you a built in reverse diode protection, although I'm still a big fan of loading a circuit at the source of the inductance (putting the diode at the coil rather than on the board).

Space limitations are going to restrict these boards to 16 outputs.


Now to run the traces and make sure I didn't miss anything and it should be good for a proto order.

Just a simple reminder. If you are putting 16A rated transistors in there, make sure your traces are beefy enough to handle the high current. Those screw terminals look awfully close together.

[pixelmagic]

@ zebulon: you must be right and I am probably wrong. case closed.

@ BubleHEAD

But seriously, are we not all in this together?

You sure are right about that, just the same when someone uses a table from another person, you might want to ask permission. That just good manners, nothing more, nothing less.

[zebulon]

@ zebulon: you must be right and I am probably wrong. case closed.

@ BubleHEAD

But seriously, are we not all in this together?

You sure are right about that, just the same when someone uses a table from another person, you might want to ask permission. That just good manners, nothing more, nothing less.

@ Pixel, I owe you an apology for my flippant remark about the cab illumination idea. Researching back a year and a half ago on another board I found that you were a pioneer in that idea. Please accept my sincerest apologies, I was the one that was wrong.

[pixelmagic]

@ Pixel, I owe you an apology for my flippant remark about the cab illumination idea. Researching back a year and a half ago on another board I found that you were a pioneer in that idea. Please accept my sincerest apologies, I was the one that was wrong.

Thank you for that, shows character.

And like i said before, case closed.

[Spektre]

@ zebulon: you must be right and I am probably wrong. case closed.

@ BubleHEAD

But seriously, are we not all in this together?

You sure are right about that, just the same when someone uses a table from another person, you might want to ask permission. That just good manners, nothing more, nothing less.

@ Pixel, I owe you an apology for my flippant remark about the cab illumination idea. Researching back a year and a half ago on another board I found that you were a pioneer in that idea. Please accept my sincerest apologies, I was the one that was wrong.

What is the latest on the booster board? Looks like a great addition.

[analog999]

I would be interested in your board.

Edited by analog999, 07 March 2012 - 09:58 PM.

[zebulon]

Still waiting for the delivery of the prototype pcbs. I checked online and they are just clearing customs so I should be able to verify the design soon. After that, if all goes well I can make an order.

Thanks for the interest everyone, I hope to have good news soon.

[maxxsinner]

Cannot wait to test these boards with you Zeb. Be great to be able to get the full potential of what LEDwiz can offer.

[zebulon]

Cannot wait to test these boards with you Zeb. Be great to be able to get the full potential of what LEDwiz can offer.

Soon Maxx, soon.....

[zebulon]

PCB's arrived today, took a couple of hours and assembled one of each.....



What you are looking at is (from left to right) The high power 16 output board, the medium power 16 output board and a high power 5 output board.

Each board is switched by an opto coupler circuit that isolates the ledwiz from the load, each opto is socketed (except on the 5 output board, I had no sockets available for the test board) allowing for easy replacement if it blows. The medium power board is running uln2803a chips, the same ones used on the ledwiz but bridged down to 4 outputs per chip rather than 8. This allows for a slightly higher load to be run, but more importantly, the load is a bit more balanced across the chip, hopefully making it last longer, and as it is socketed as well, it's easier to replace if it blows.

I'll start my testing tomorrow, as I need to wait for my eyes to uncross after soldering all of these.

[russdx]

wow thats cool

the uln2803 is one of my favourite power driver chips so dam useful lol, also comes in smd yay

[Spektre]

PCB's arrived today, took a couple of hours and assembled one of each.....



What you are looking at is (from left to right) The high power 16 output board, the medium power 16 output board and a high power 5 output board.

Each board is switched by an opto coupler circuit that isolates the ledwiz from the load, each opto is socketed (except on the 5 output board, I had no sockets available for the test board) allowing for easy replacement if it blows. The medium power board is running uln2803a chips, the same ones used on the ledwiz but bridged down to 4 outputs per chip rather than 8. This allows for a slightly higher load to be run, but more importantly, the load is a bit more balanced across the chip, hopefully making it last longer, and as it is socketed as well, it's easier to replace if it blows.

I'll start my testing tomorrow, as I need to wait for my eyes to uncross after soldering all of these.

Looks great. What is the eta and expected price on the high power 16 output board? Any idea how much those drivers will drive without heatsinks as shown?

Spektre

[zebulon]

PCB's arrived today, took a couple of hours and assembled one of each.....



What you are looking at is (from left to right) The high power 16 output board, the medium power 16 output board and a high power 5 output board.

Each board is switched by an opto coupler circuit that isolates the ledwiz from the load, each opto is socketed (except on the 5 output board, I had no sockets available for the test board) allowing for easy replacement if it blows. The medium power board is running uln2803a chips, the same ones used on the ledwiz but bridged down to 4 outputs per chip rather than 8. This allows for a slightly higher load to be run, but more importantly, the load is a bit more balanced across the chip, hopefully making it last longer, and as it is socketed as well, it's easier to replace if it blows.

I'll start my testing tomorrow, as I need to wait for my eyes to uncross after soldering all of these.

Looks great. What is the eta and expected price on the high power 16 output board? Any idea how much those drivers will drive without heatsinks as shown?

Spektre

Realistically, the traces on the board are .012" thick and being that we are using more of a burst timing than constant draw, I'd be hesitant to go higher than 5 amps per driver. The drivers themselves are rated for 16a at 50v so you are well within that spec at 12v 3-5a without sinking them. I tried to get the layout to run heavier traces, but it wouldn't fly with this many outputs.

As for the price, I haven't even gone there yet. For someone that wanted a bare board and was willing to acquire the parts and solder it themself, I'd let the pcb go for $15.00. To assemble one would cost the parts plus $10 for the time it takes to do the work. A rough estimate at this point is around $50-$60 dollars. If the demand is there, the price will likely be lower as the components are cheaper in bulk.

Once I place an order for the pcbs, it usually takes 20 - 25 days to receive the delivery.

I've tested all three boards and only found one revision to be made to the medium power board to enable selecting between 5v and 12v for the output voltage, as it stands at the moment, the boards I received will only output 12v (an oops in the layout that I missed). The high power board works fine as it sits, so no revisions needed there.

It's pretty cool having it all hooked up and running 8 outputs off of the ledwiz while the arduino loops a pattern on the other 8, all on one board.

wow thats cool

the uln2803 is one of my favourite power driver chips so dam useful lol, also comes in smd yay

Thanks, I'm still thinking on your board. The idea's great and it looks cool but I can't bring myself to drop the coin on the display yet....

[Shibbynator]

I'm interested in 2 high power 16 output boards, so once everything is ready don't hesitate to contact me to count me in for purchasing the components...

would use them for RGB cree led control, solenoid control and other force feedback toys... coverage of all ledwiz outputs... NICE JOB!! makes it a hell of a lot easier for wiring and configuration!

[Zablon]

I'm also interested in this Keep us updated.