62 replies to this topic

[lettuce]

Locking tables doesn't keep lowlifes from stealing the tables and selling them as part of a CD. I locked my tables for a couple of years back in 2002 or so, and they still ended up on rip-off CDs. That was a minor factor in my leaving for several years. I even stated on the background that VP and all the tables were free to download, with the url of Pinball Nirvava. The only thing is that the unknowing suckers had already bought and paid for their CDs. I guess I'll be making a lot fewer tables too.

your letting these assholes win than peeps do this to my stuff all the time in the sims but i don't let it bother me i keep on going and determined not to let them win. the best thing you can do is not spread their site around like whats being done now. the less people know about them the better the more people talk about them and forum threads start up the more your advertising for them.

I dont think anyone on here would buy there products anyway......especially now!!!

[bladexdsl]

you'd be surprised someone could come in here off google, see it than go take a look. i've seen it happen many times on other sites.

Edited by bladexdsl, 24 May 2011 - 12:54 PM.

[unclewilly]

Are these tables usin the roms. That's a direct violation of the pinmame software license isn't it.

[oooPLAYER1ooo]

Look at the bifuco pinball tronic thread Scott
Destruk explains what is happening

I notice that there video has been removed due to copyright violation by Brian smith.
I think destruck was in contact with them

[Snoopy]

very sad news,i can fully understand his Anger,but why punish everybody just because of a few Idiots? thats not fair imho,i just hope JPsalas will be back very soon.

[mwong168]

That is really sad news to hear about jpsalas and hope he comes back soon as if it wasn't for his old tables along with the other talented authors as well I probably wouldn't have built a full sized pincab. I just checked out the Pinball News link and saw the screen shot of the modified tables which are pretty lame. I totally understand why he is upset after all the time he must have spent on making Spiderman since there was no rom for it as well and to see someone modify it and re-brand it as their own creation. I hope you do come back soon as I was looking forward to assisting you on your next table Congo. I'm a software developer and I sort of get upset when my co-workers take pieces of my code and remove my comments from it or re-word making it seem like their own.

Thanks for all your great releases and all I've been playing this past long weekend was Roadshow on my cab because I have a chance to buy one from a collector who is selling off some of his pins. I guess they are trying raise funds for Stern's Tron or possibly JJP's Wizard of Oz?

[chriz]

JP, WE love your tables!

Please do not punish the wrong people: this community - without your work VP isn't the same anymore.

don't let the jerks win!

but anyway, everyone deserves a break, I can understand that, too!

[gwjrabbit]

JP, WE love your tables!

Please do not punish the wrong people: this community - without your work VP isn't the same anymore.

don't let the jerks win!

but anyway, everyone deserves a break, I can understand that, too!

I sent him a note privately too -- but man, I would pay for a subscription service that got me the output of JP and the other folks here who do such great work. I don't know how you stop pirates. I write about video games for a living, and the piracy issue is very real, and just as disheartening for the folks who spend 40 million making a AAA console game as it is for a guy like JP who's just doing it for love. I'm not sure there's any real answer. Still, just makes me sad.

I'm serious about paying -- a patronage model where people subscribe up front for whatever the output is. Won't keep the tables from getting out into the ether, but then again, copy protection doesn't keep Bioshock off the shelves in China for $1 either.

[Practicedummy]

I personally like making tables and there are enough good guys out there (and here ) that I wouldn't stop making tables because of the scum out there. I think victoriously!

JP go ahead and take time out to get over that blow that has happened to you and the VP community in general. i can understand why this has hit you personally.

Edited by Practicedummy, 24 May 2011 - 04:16 PM.

[michaelinfurs]

jp's tables are amazing \ this is disheartening to hear \ his work and the work of all the great table authors deserves nothing but ultimate respect


michael t

[Zablon]

This is truely sad. JP you do amazing work.

I do not agree with what these ppl have done and hope they fail miserably. That being said, in this day and age, nothing created is safe. No amount of protection, subscription service or anything digital will prevent things like this or people taking your work and selling it. Even if it wasn't mass released it WOULD make it outside. Everything that has any substance is free game. You pretty much have to expect that quality things are going to have things like this happen. In essence, these guys have a stronger foot to stand on simply because their work is only based off of JP's recreations of real tables. That is quite a distinction in terms of any kind of legality, aside from the whole ROM issue, but that in itself is a gray area in the whole of the hobby.

In the end, when you do creative work, you pretty much have to do it for the love of it and try to ignore everything else.

Edited by Zablon, 24 May 2011 - 04:47 PM.

[DedRok_V]

There is always some clown that ruins it for everyone.

You deserve a break anyway JP, take all the time you need.

[ta2686]

I am also saddened by this. As I said in the other thread about this, it is the actions of the few that cause us all to suffer.

That being said, and I fear I am going to get flamed for this, I think that it comes down to a person's interpretation of the phrase "PUBLIC DOMAIN". Some people feel that if someone releases their work on a forum such as this, without charging a fee, they feel it is fair game for them to redistribute it as they wish, which could include them charging a fee for them burning it onto a CD or DVD (including the cost of the media) and/or modifying it and redistributing it as their own without crediting the original creator(s). This is something that should not be accepted in any fashion or form.

How can this activity be prevented? I honestly have no idea. Charging an access fee and pledging not to redistribute is an idea that sounds good in principle, but there will probably be users who will redistribute anyway no matter what you have them agree to. Lockng of tables is an option, but that will hurt those who want to learn how to make tables by viewing what others have done, and who knows if there are users who can crack the password to unlock the table. In the end, there is no easy answer to this.

I just hope that authors will continue to update and improve their tables to make these unauthorized mods/releases obsolete and undesirable to the community.

[Lord Hiryu]

All my support to JPSalas.

I understand the psychic state of JP, as well as the monumental climb that must have.

This kind of situations, makes you stay as an authentic idiot.
It's very sad to see, like wretches… (since they do not have another name), become rich at the cost of the disinterested work of artists as JP, Melon, Groni, Destruk, PacDude or any person who spents his time, its illusion and its knowledge to do in exchange for anything.

Internet is a reflection of our real society, with good and given people of altruistic way, and people without scruples, that do not matter to them to make money at the cost of the malaise of many.
The bad thing, is that unfortunately, that is impossible to stop.
I have suffer the same in my skin.
The robbery from people of this hobby of my art, using it for gain money and reputation, and in the end, nothing can be done.
From here, JP, take your time, and mainly, advice of friend, don't leave that a few motherfuckers , erase your illusion to do what you enjoy to do, tables or whatever in your life.

Mucha suerte nene, y decidas lo que decidas, bien decidido estará.

Also, Sabbat, the tables are these:

Super Hero 'Spiderman" - JPSalas
Frankenstein "Canasta86" - JPSalas
Fish Tales "Fishing Day" - Melon
Agent Double "Lethal Weapon" - Joep, PinGod, NEDO, MOD by el_timbo
Getaway - Noah/UR
The Adams' Family - Melon
Indiana Jones - Lord Hiryu
T2 Noah/UR

[Mc_mc]

Was just enjoying JP's excellent Flintstones recreation and popped on to his website to see if he's done anything new (he's so prolific!) and saw the sad news.

JP -> I just wanted to say thanks for all the pleasure I've derived from playing your tables, thanks for your efforts and making it freely available for anyone to enjoy. I totally understand that you're p***ed that other people are trying to make money from all your hard work.

[Itchigo]

I totally agree/ understand what JP is feeling. I wouldn't want my work modified without my consent anymore than anyone else would. Let alone for profit. Take a break JP and let things blow over and even if you never do anything again, I'm glad I was able to have enjoyed what you've done. You work is the best around so take some consolation in that yours is what they chose to use. I know that doesn't do a lot because you hear it so much, but it's true.

As for locking tables... you wouldn't be able to get in and see what was done or how it's done. Many new people would be able to learn as quick because of this. This is how I learned.

[kungfusteve]

Im not going to spend time reading all the related posts... but isnt it Hypocritical to complain about other people copying your work... when in fact, you are copying someone elses work?!!!

JP didnt design any of these machines. And not only that, but most of the digital tables Ive seen are filled with errors and look horrible compared to the real machines.

Worse even, is that the original artists that made the artwork on the pinball tables, are seeing people "re-Draw" them
with their own changes thinking its better that way. Did the re-draw people ask for permission to not only redraw the art... but also to CHANGE IT?!!! Do they have the right?

No, they dont.

Anyone who works on replicating something that doesnt belong to them, has no rights to it, no matter what. It doesnt matter if they sell it or not. Selling them is illegal, and they know it. Should any company choose to sell them, they are illegal too. But trying to put them under, will only bring negative attention towards your own efforts of enjoying other peoples efforts.

While it sucks that you are not and can not make money with your efforts on your passion, it means little.

Any of you people are free to design and make your Own custom pinball table designs, with your own sound effects, and own music, and sell them. And if anyone copies that... you have a right to get angered, and grounds for legal action.

Otherwise, you really have nothing at all.

Enjoy your passion of recreating machines you love, or dont. The only thing that has ever changed, is your delusional entitlements.

[rob046]

This sort of thing is nothing new. It has been going on since the beginning of VPM tables. There are still sites around that host illegal mods. & still ppl trying to make a buck on ebay, though I don't think anybody is getting rich so it probably isn't worth it.
Also we here might not be the best ones to complain about legalities. & I feel like I don't need to explain why, it is pretty obvious. For any member who thinks they are totally clean, think again. This is why I have mixed feelings on making a big deal of this. Might not be good to bring more attention to it cuz in the end it could hurt what we do here.
I don't condone what these guys did, its a little too blatant. I'm just not surprised, especially with cabs now being a thing, expect to see more of this I guess.

For those suggesting JP sell his tables. Um, not a good idea, to say the least. & quite illegal. When you get into building tables, you have to want to do it for free. & quite honestly it is a privilege for us to even be allowed to create & play VPM tables for free. It is pretty amazing what we are allowed to do in this hobby for free. This is why it might be best to not make too many waves.

For those suggest JP lock his tables. Also not a good idea. It creates more problems than solutions. I love JP's tables, but I often disagree with his physics since I'm more of a purist & am anal about tables playing just like in real life even if it means the table loses some fun. That is the beauty of VP, I can go into the editor, make his tables play how I feel they should play, so often times I need to tone down the speed of his tables or tweak this or that. Take that luxury away & I'll likely end up playing older VP8 versions of tables cuz I care more about how a game plays than how it looks. Call me old fashioned, but I believe that just as the author has the right to build what they want & how they want, the end user should have the same right to tweak for personal use. With locked tables, they always just felt wrong to me, & it even seems kinda illegal to lock VPM tables if you really think about it. Also we shouldn't be forced to swallow somebody else's idea of how a table should be, not in VP. That is what makes VP different & in some ways better than even the console or PC games we would pay for.

Anyhow, if JP loves what he does, maybe he just needs a break & I'm sure he will return. I've burned out on all this stuff before, as have many people, & often times they return. Hey, destruk is still around. I think he's wanted to leave the hobby a time or two, or step back, but in the end I think he really loves what he gets to do now with VP & pinmame, & where would we be without him? Those into this hobby for the right reasons do tend to stick around, even if they need an extended break every now & then.

JP is human. I'm surprised he has made it this far without taking a break or getting too upset with something. It can be a tough gig. Regardless of the legalities, he still spends a lot of time making & perfecting the way he builds tables. So obviously it would upset anybody to see that work taken after telling somebody straight up that they weren't allowed, & to top it off try to profit from it.
Hey, JP is one of the best at what he does, so in a way it is a compliment that people see his tables & they feel his are worthy of trying to make a buck.
Also, let's not overlook the fact here that JP wasn't the only one affected by this, there are 7 or 8 other guys as well.

Sooo... it is my guess that JP might of been due for a little break anyhow. He's been at it for a long time now & at an incredible rate. I kinda think we should maybe encourage him to take a break. He's given us enough to play with for a while until he gets refreshed. Plus, I've seen in the past that some guys going too hard at table building can burn them out for good. PD is the most prominent example. Before he dropped off from the scene, I recall him churning out tables at an even faster rate than JP ever has. I remember when he was burning through old bally releases like 2 a week, not to mention he was active in always updating his other tables.

Then I think the mix between him just doing too much, having personal issues, & getting caught up in forum politics... it was burnout city. Maybe if he steps back & takes a break at the right time he'd still be around. I appreciate even more these days what guys like him (& destruk, JP, others) have given to this hobby, but at the same time I sure hope they don't like at it like they are doing others a favor. Hopefully its more like they are doing something they enjoy, & it also just happens to benefit others. Sucks that stuff like this illegal modding happens, but it comes with the territory. It will continue to happen, let's just hope it stays at a minimum, & do what we can when we can to keep it that way. I feel like the guys & destruk went about things the right way to help the situation as much as possible.

Edited by rob046, 24 May 2011 - 11:56 PM.

[humid]

There are always givers and takers. For the last several years J.P. has been an outstanding giver. He jumped right in when I asked him to take over my 'Strange World' redraw, and gave it that J.P. touch I wished I could do. I can't describe how happy I was to be a part of one of his great tables.

I think when you become a AAA table builder it's a bit of a trap. You realize that many people are pleased and entertained by your success...and you get addicted to pleasing all those folk, and meeting their appetite for new stuff. But it inevitably takes its toll, no matter how big your heart.

I hope that J.P. reads all the perspectives offered above, takes a good break, then returns with a refreshed outlook. I'd rather see 3 tables a year by J.P. than none at all. I wish him all the best, however the coin lands. He has already delivered uncountable hours to this wonderful hobby.

[Killerkop]

Im not going to spend time reading all the related posts... but isnt it Hypocritical to complain about other people copying your work... when in fact, you are copying someone elses work?!!!

JP didnt design any of these machines. And not only that, but most of the digital tables Ive seen are filled with errors and look horrible compared to the real machines.

Worse even, is that the original artists that made the artwork on the pinball tables, are seeing people "re-Draw" them
with their own changes thinking its better that way. Did the re-draw people ask for permission to not only redraw the art... but also to CHANGE IT?!!! Do they have the right?

No, they dont.

Anyone who works on replicating something that doesnt belong to them, has no rights to it, no matter what. It doesnt matter if they sell it or not. Selling them is illegal, and they know it. Should any company choose to sell them, they are illegal too. But trying to put them under, will only bring negative attention towards your own efforts of enjoying other peoples efforts.

While it sucks that you are not and can not make money with your efforts on your passion, it means little.

Any of you people are free to design and make your Own custom pinball table designs, with your own sound effects, and own music, and sell them. And if anyone copies that... you have a right to get angered, and grounds for legal action.

Otherwise, you really have nothing at all.

Enjoy your passion of recreating machines you love, or dont. The only thing that has ever changed, is your delusional entitlements.

What this community attempts to do, and in most case does extremely well is no different than the efforts taken by the Vatican to restore the Sistine Chapel. They don't have Michelangelo's permission to restore his work, but yet they realize that without some effort of restoration his masterpiece will fade away and the world would be a darker place without it. The same holds true for pinball. Pinball inspires us and gives us enjoyment, and sadly it's dying. I will probably never get a chance to play the real versions of many of the tables that authors have recreated on this site, and I'm grateful for their work. I have no problem with them being protective of the restorations they have provided. No one here makes a version of a table because they want to take credit for it, they do it because of a love for pinball and a want to share the experience for multiple generations to come. Generations where finding a working pinball machine may be nigh impossible. I understand your points on the legality issues, but I think you're doing a disservice to the artists and authors on this site. No one here is looking to make a penny off their work, whether original or recreations. We are all looking to support a community that has an undying love for something that's fading away and being neglected. Anyone who creates something has a parental love for it, and it's hard to see someone take that and alter it. JP may not have "created" these tables, but he did create them in VP from scratch. That's like recreating the Mona Lisa with tic-tacs. He does amazing work and he should have some say over what he created.

The bottom line is that while his tables may be recreations of existing tables, the digital versions of those tables wouldn't exist without his work, and that should give him a say so on what happens with those digital versions.