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VP cabinet or a real pinball?
Started By
Wizards_Hat
, Mar 08 2009 08:45 PM
101 replies to this topic
#21
Posted 23 March 2009 - 09:31 PM
I voted for real pinball. You just can't perfectly emulate the real thing. When you go from VP to a real table you instantly realize how different the experience is.
With that being said, I don't think I could ever actually give up VP! It's way too fun, too handy for checking out rare tables (heck even "common" ones anymore - not like most people ever see them). Too bad nearly all tables are out of my po-boy price range, but at least I'm fortunate enough to like EMs; I have 2 of them (Lariat and Satin Doll) and while they're still pretty extravagant they are reasonable.
With that being said, I don't think I could ever actually give up VP! It's way too fun, too handy for checking out rare tables (heck even "common" ones anymore - not like most people ever see them). Too bad nearly all tables are out of my po-boy price range, but at least I'm fortunate enough to like EMs; I have 2 of them (Lariat and Satin Doll) and while they're still pretty extravagant they are reasonable.
#24
Posted 23 April 2009 - 01:45 AM
My take on this is both. Have a VP/FP cabinet to handle the games that you ordinarily would not get the ability to play or would not really want.
Nothing can really substitute for the real machine: Vinyl vs CD vs MP3?
That being said, I listen to most music with MP3; you have to be dedicated for vinyl.
I like only a few of the old EM's, but want to try all of them.
My favorite pinball era is the early 80's, a simpler era where there is less glitz and the quest for the mental pin zone.
Pinball is real life, unpredictable, quirky, constantly needing attention, wearing down. Not any single machine is the same, even twins are not the same.
So: Real Pinball for the very best Favorites
VP/FP for the rest.
My current favorite is Alien Poker, and I hear it calling me from across the room.
Nothing can substitute for playing in the Dark with only the lights of the playfield.
Dark Side of the Moon on Vinyl: No Substitute
"The Journey Over, The Warrior Returns"
Nothing can really substitute for the real machine: Vinyl vs CD vs MP3?
That being said, I listen to most music with MP3; you have to be dedicated for vinyl.
I like only a few of the old EM's, but want to try all of them.
My favorite pinball era is the early 80's, a simpler era where there is less glitz and the quest for the mental pin zone.
Pinball is real life, unpredictable, quirky, constantly needing attention, wearing down. Not any single machine is the same, even twins are not the same.
So: Real Pinball for the very best Favorites
VP/FP for the rest.
My current favorite is Alien Poker, and I hear it calling me from across the room.
Nothing can substitute for playing in the Dark with only the lights of the playfield.
Dark Side of the Moon on Vinyl: No Substitute
"The Journey Over, The Warrior Returns"
#27
Posted 03 June 2009 - 04:31 AM
Both are great but you have to know that the real thing is a lot better than a simulation, just like try simulate SEX its the same... PINBALL MACHINES are like real womans in this case... LOL... I voted on Real table + a VP-FP cabinet (that Ill make someday when the FullHD Lcds prices get a bit lower in my country) so Ill have full pinball pleasure!!.
#30
Posted 13 August 2009 - 06:58 AM
VP & FP in 16-9 or FS (Fullscreen) in stead of 4:3.
Indeed, to put more realism to Gameplay, it's put in a (real sized) Pinball Cabinet.
Go and have a look at the Cabinet section ..
Cheers,
FD.
Indeed, to put more realism to Gameplay, it's put in a (real sized) Pinball Cabinet.
Go and have a look at the Cabinet section ..
Cheers,
FD.
'Flying Dutchman'
In need for a Backglass or 'Active Backglass / UVP' please 'click' on below and visit the complete revised website at:
In need for a Backglass or 'Active Backglass / UVP' please 'click' on below and visit the complete revised website at:
#31
Posted 13 August 2009 - 07:42 AM
In theory, if i was wealthy, i would buy real pinball tables as long as i could find spare parts, because when you have money, nothing is too rare and expensive to have, nothing is too big for your room and nothing is so difficult to repair...almost.
Computer simulations make everyone's life easier, because some things in life need too much money and time and they become unpractical as technology and living values change...so..practically, (considering that only one pinball company has left and having some pinball tables in our days is a rare, expensive and time consuming hobby) i would choose the most high end simulation i could find, but i'm not really sure about a cabinet form...Pin cabs are very cool gadgets and they are certainly more convincing than a simple pc, but, that fixed viewing angle while you play them really kills me and makes me prefer a computer (where the angle of the table doesn't need to match the physical angle of the screen pretending that it has real parts on it...) Pin cabs have more of the "illusion" factor...
Computer simulations make everyone's life easier, because some things in life need too much money and time and they become unpractical as technology and living values change...so..practically, (considering that only one pinball company has left and having some pinball tables in our days is a rare, expensive and time consuming hobby) i would choose the most high end simulation i could find, but i'm not really sure about a cabinet form...Pin cabs are very cool gadgets and they are certainly more convincing than a simple pc, but, that fixed viewing angle while you play them really kills me and makes me prefer a computer (where the angle of the table doesn't need to match the physical angle of the screen pretending that it has real parts on it...) Pin cabs have more of the "illusion" factor...
#34
Posted 17 August 2009 - 05:21 PM
I own two real pinball machines (Jurassic Parc DE and Mary Shelleys Frankenstein Sega) and I like to play VP from time to time as well.
What is most amazing to me is all the time and work the authors invest in their VP tables.
Keep on going, this is real art.
What is most amazing to me is all the time and work the authors invest in their VP tables.
Keep on going, this is real art.
#36
Posted 18 August 2009 - 09:37 PM
I am the proud owner of 3 real pins, and I'm constantly thinking of what I and others might be able to do to keep real pinball alive. I don't have all the answers, but one of them is for us pin fans to not settle for VP/FP cabs to take place of real pins unless it's a DIY thing. There are just too many real pins out there that need a good home.
For each person that spends $$ on a nice cab, that may equal 1 to 4 or 5 real pinballs you could have. For those that truly only have room for 1 cab, I can more understand wanting the FP/VP cab, but even then, wouldn't you be so damn tempted to get the real thing with that $$? At the price of some of these cabs, you could probably pick the 1 pinball in the world you wish to have, if you could only have one, and its yours.
I'm not totally against cabs though. However, paying a company 4 g's for something like Ultrapin or whatever its called, I'm not for it in most cases. Building a cab on your own, as a hobby, making it all DIY, then that is fine by me. Or if you already own at least 1 real pin and want to buy one, thats fine too, at least you are still supporting the "real" cause.
Cuz the day a manufactured VP/FP cab really starts to compete with Stern's sales of new pins, that is the day pinball effectively dies. I'm all for competition between brands of real pinball's, but not the real thing vs similation.
Being a member of VP for 5 1/2 years now, I've definitely realised some things about pinball, both real and simmed. If not for the popularity of real pinball, we wouldn't have so many great sims! Imagine if the pinball boom of the late 70's and early 90's mini boom never happened, then realise how many great VP/FP sims never would have existed as the real things wouldn't have existed. Example, if not for the real success of TAF, then TZ probably never gets made. If not for the success of FunHouse or AFM, maybe we never see ToM or a Road Show. The success of some tables definitely have bred others.
Now, in 2009, if Stern loses more customers, because people are starting to prefer sim cabinets, then it will reach the point where 1 less new table gets made, which could turn into 2, which could turn into none cuz they don't exist anymore.
And with fewer new tables, or no new tables, then we have nothing more to sim in the futute for the many thousands of pinball fans. It is an absolute battle to keep real pinball alive in this world of nano tech & video games. I'm greedy, I love new tech as much as anyone, yet I want to keep my good old pinball as well.
Just turning 30 years old recently, I grew up in an interesting time.
When I was barely old enough to remember, say '85, pinball was pretty popular (even though I have since learned that sales struggled at that time, I believe that the boom from the late 70's & early 80's still kept a lot of pinball machines around for a few years). And we all know about the nintendo revolution that followed. Yeah, it seemed that game technology grew up right with me, and damn did it grow fast.
But as the early to mid 90's showed, there was still a place for pinball amidst the great home video game consoles and arcade games. People still left their houses to socialize, still wanted to do things you couldn't do at home, such as play real pinball.
When we were bored, going to the arcade was alwas on the list of potential things to do, especially if the weather was crappy.
Nowadays, the entertainment once found only by inserting a couple quarters in an arcade machine can be found at home, or all your friends homes. You can play eachother at a game yet be by yourself.
Unfortunately, or fortunately, real pinball will never be on WiFi (then again, you never know). God forbid if you and your buddies want to play real pinball, you have to actually all be at the same place, maybe even have to drink a few beers and be social. Life is tough! Come on, there is nothing like gang kicking the crap out of a pinball machine that eats your quarter, and getting escorted out of the establishment.
I know I'm getting off topic here, but my ramblings are still directed toward the thought of people choosing sim cabs over a real pin. I'm glad Stern is still making pinballs, but I'll be honest, it seems they are doing it half heartedly. Though I don't fully blame them. The customers take some blame too, and certainly the economy these days, as its hard to get real excited to make great pins when you are on the verge of being bankrupt, and worry if enough people are going to buy enough real pins to keep you afloat.
I can understand why they market only toward home pin owners these days, though I don't fully agree with it.
I have my ideas on how I would not only keep pinball alive, but increase its popularity. I believe it can be done, and I believe it can all start from the ideas of a few people, or even just 1.
While I make most of my money in these tough economic times by building web sites for people and doing computer repairs, I actually went to college for human behavior studies (definitely some sociology, psychology).
So one thing I always do when other people are around my pinballs, or I'm at a large gathering like at PAPA this past weekend, I study people's reaction to pinball (even though I'm not always aware I'm doing it). How are todays kids taking to it? Are adults still really into it, or just being nostalgic? Is there still a place for it?
How is and what is the psyche of the average joe when it comes to pinball?
The answers to those questions are always positive. Not only do kids and adults both genuinely still enjoy pinball, but now its more of a bonding thing than ever. Think about it. Pinball only got really huge in the mid to late 70's into the early 80's. Guess how many of the people into pinball then are now parents of kids today? A lot!
Even go into the early 90's pinball mini boom, people around my age who grew up playing TAF, TZ, ToM, FH...even many of those people have youngsters. So at PAPA, I was really amazed by how many families were taking part and having a great time. I can't tell you how many times I heard dads say to their kids "hey, this is the pinball that I used to play when I was a kid" or "when I was your age". I'm paraphrasing, but I more or less heard that a number of times.
So instead of kids thinking of pinball as dad's crappy old outdated toy from when he was young, it something they seem to enjoy just as much. The nature of pinball, the idea behind it, is actually pretty timeless.
At my house, my oldest pin, my '77 Stern Stampede which is well older than I am, that always gets a surprising amount of attention from kids. I always thought of it as a game only real pinball lovers or older adults would enjoy, but the kids love it. Maybe its the slower pace, simpler play, the bells. I saw the same thing at PAPA, lots of kids enjoying the older pins, perhpas more than the newer ones. I get that. Many of these older pins were done in such a way, were just so artistic, colorful, and well designed to attract.
Kids can get frustrated with the much faster pace and complexities of a newer stern pin (just too much going on at once). Am I saying that newer pins seem to leave kids out? Yes.
I'm not saying there isn't a place for modern pins, not at all. Just saying that some kids (and adults) want a more linear game sometimes. I swear some of these newer games were designed by someone with ADD.
In closing, what is my point? My point is that pinball is still such a great thing, and not only do people still like it, but due to its popularity boom back in the day, pinball seems to actually attract more generations of people than ever before. But if real pinball, as tough as things are for it right now, does completely die...I can't tell you how bad it is.
I never mentioned maintenence. As much as I love these great older pins, yeah its true that it is hard to keep them maintained and playable on a daily basis, especially if placed in an arcade. Parts are hard to come by, or too expensive to replace.
Remember how many pins were made between the mid 70's and early 80's. Just that time span alone probably created most of the pins in the world, both in individual titles and how many were manufactured.
The pins from that era have slowly been becoming fewer and fewer. And despite how much many of us value them, there are still more being tossed in the trash than there are being saved.
Over time, we will see less and less of these. You take away pins from say '75 to '81, just a 6 year span, then shows like the PAPA tourney I went to would suddenly house maybe 150 pins instead of 400. That is scary.
Now if real pinball stays on the course its on, or god forbid it gets worse, then look 30 years from now at what a pinball show will be like. Not only would the current classics be even more scarce, but we wouldn't have much of anything to represent this time period...at which point maybe we don't have any pinball shows at all.
How can we save pinball? I don't know. Keep emulation alive, that helps, we need VP/FP/VPM. However, if we have the room and cash for a pinball machine, please spend your money on the real thing. Even buying old used pins keeps the pinball market simulated, it shows activity, it shows people are still interested, and could in turn lift the spirits of those making real pinballs or even encourage new companies to try their hand at it. Even for those without money to spend, just playing VP/FP on your PC is support enough, and maybe keep spreading the word about it. Believe it or not, a lot of pinball enthusiasts aren't really aware of VP/FP.
As I am living proof that being introduced to the world of emulation can eventually lead to spending thousands of dollars on real pinball. VP/FP re-sparked my interest in pinball 5+ years ago, I got to learn about all the different tables and era's out there, and it got my hungry to own the real thing. And all 3 pinballs I own are tables I previously learned about, played and liked in emulation, and never would have known about otherwise and without VP/FP, I definitely wouldn't be a pin owner today.
As for keeping real pinball alive, I have some ideas that I know will work, I just hope they come to fruition someday. I think VP/FP cabs are pretty cool as a DIY thing, but real pinball desperately needs your support. Whether you buy a new $4,000 Stern, or an old used one for $300, it all helps.
For each person that spends $$ on a nice cab, that may equal 1 to 4 or 5 real pinballs you could have. For those that truly only have room for 1 cab, I can more understand wanting the FP/VP cab, but even then, wouldn't you be so damn tempted to get the real thing with that $$? At the price of some of these cabs, you could probably pick the 1 pinball in the world you wish to have, if you could only have one, and its yours.
I'm not totally against cabs though. However, paying a company 4 g's for something like Ultrapin or whatever its called, I'm not for it in most cases. Building a cab on your own, as a hobby, making it all DIY, then that is fine by me. Or if you already own at least 1 real pin and want to buy one, thats fine too, at least you are still supporting the "real" cause.
Cuz the day a manufactured VP/FP cab really starts to compete with Stern's sales of new pins, that is the day pinball effectively dies. I'm all for competition between brands of real pinball's, but not the real thing vs similation.
Being a member of VP for 5 1/2 years now, I've definitely realised some things about pinball, both real and simmed. If not for the popularity of real pinball, we wouldn't have so many great sims! Imagine if the pinball boom of the late 70's and early 90's mini boom never happened, then realise how many great VP/FP sims never would have existed as the real things wouldn't have existed. Example, if not for the real success of TAF, then TZ probably never gets made. If not for the success of FunHouse or AFM, maybe we never see ToM or a Road Show. The success of some tables definitely have bred others.
Now, in 2009, if Stern loses more customers, because people are starting to prefer sim cabinets, then it will reach the point where 1 less new table gets made, which could turn into 2, which could turn into none cuz they don't exist anymore.
And with fewer new tables, or no new tables, then we have nothing more to sim in the futute for the many thousands of pinball fans. It is an absolute battle to keep real pinball alive in this world of nano tech & video games. I'm greedy, I love new tech as much as anyone, yet I want to keep my good old pinball as well.
Just turning 30 years old recently, I grew up in an interesting time.
When I was barely old enough to remember, say '85, pinball was pretty popular (even though I have since learned that sales struggled at that time, I believe that the boom from the late 70's & early 80's still kept a lot of pinball machines around for a few years). And we all know about the nintendo revolution that followed. Yeah, it seemed that game technology grew up right with me, and damn did it grow fast.
But as the early to mid 90's showed, there was still a place for pinball amidst the great home video game consoles and arcade games. People still left their houses to socialize, still wanted to do things you couldn't do at home, such as play real pinball.
When we were bored, going to the arcade was alwas on the list of potential things to do, especially if the weather was crappy.
Nowadays, the entertainment once found only by inserting a couple quarters in an arcade machine can be found at home, or all your friends homes. You can play eachother at a game yet be by yourself.
Unfortunately, or fortunately, real pinball will never be on WiFi (then again, you never know). God forbid if you and your buddies want to play real pinball, you have to actually all be at the same place, maybe even have to drink a few beers and be social. Life is tough! Come on, there is nothing like gang kicking the crap out of a pinball machine that eats your quarter, and getting escorted out of the establishment.
I know I'm getting off topic here, but my ramblings are still directed toward the thought of people choosing sim cabs over a real pin. I'm glad Stern is still making pinballs, but I'll be honest, it seems they are doing it half heartedly. Though I don't fully blame them. The customers take some blame too, and certainly the economy these days, as its hard to get real excited to make great pins when you are on the verge of being bankrupt, and worry if enough people are going to buy enough real pins to keep you afloat.
I can understand why they market only toward home pin owners these days, though I don't fully agree with it.
I have my ideas on how I would not only keep pinball alive, but increase its popularity. I believe it can be done, and I believe it can all start from the ideas of a few people, or even just 1.
While I make most of my money in these tough economic times by building web sites for people and doing computer repairs, I actually went to college for human behavior studies (definitely some sociology, psychology).
So one thing I always do when other people are around my pinballs, or I'm at a large gathering like at PAPA this past weekend, I study people's reaction to pinball (even though I'm not always aware I'm doing it). How are todays kids taking to it? Are adults still really into it, or just being nostalgic? Is there still a place for it?
How is and what is the psyche of the average joe when it comes to pinball?
The answers to those questions are always positive. Not only do kids and adults both genuinely still enjoy pinball, but now its more of a bonding thing than ever. Think about it. Pinball only got really huge in the mid to late 70's into the early 80's. Guess how many of the people into pinball then are now parents of kids today? A lot!
Even go into the early 90's pinball mini boom, people around my age who grew up playing TAF, TZ, ToM, FH...even many of those people have youngsters. So at PAPA, I was really amazed by how many families were taking part and having a great time. I can't tell you how many times I heard dads say to their kids "hey, this is the pinball that I used to play when I was a kid" or "when I was your age". I'm paraphrasing, but I more or less heard that a number of times.
So instead of kids thinking of pinball as dad's crappy old outdated toy from when he was young, it something they seem to enjoy just as much. The nature of pinball, the idea behind it, is actually pretty timeless.
At my house, my oldest pin, my '77 Stern Stampede which is well older than I am, that always gets a surprising amount of attention from kids. I always thought of it as a game only real pinball lovers or older adults would enjoy, but the kids love it. Maybe its the slower pace, simpler play, the bells. I saw the same thing at PAPA, lots of kids enjoying the older pins, perhpas more than the newer ones. I get that. Many of these older pins were done in such a way, were just so artistic, colorful, and well designed to attract.
Kids can get frustrated with the much faster pace and complexities of a newer stern pin (just too much going on at once). Am I saying that newer pins seem to leave kids out? Yes.
I'm not saying there isn't a place for modern pins, not at all. Just saying that some kids (and adults) want a more linear game sometimes. I swear some of these newer games were designed by someone with ADD.
In closing, what is my point? My point is that pinball is still such a great thing, and not only do people still like it, but due to its popularity boom back in the day, pinball seems to actually attract more generations of people than ever before. But if real pinball, as tough as things are for it right now, does completely die...I can't tell you how bad it is.
I never mentioned maintenence. As much as I love these great older pins, yeah its true that it is hard to keep them maintained and playable on a daily basis, especially if placed in an arcade. Parts are hard to come by, or too expensive to replace.
Remember how many pins were made between the mid 70's and early 80's. Just that time span alone probably created most of the pins in the world, both in individual titles and how many were manufactured.
The pins from that era have slowly been becoming fewer and fewer. And despite how much many of us value them, there are still more being tossed in the trash than there are being saved.
Over time, we will see less and less of these. You take away pins from say '75 to '81, just a 6 year span, then shows like the PAPA tourney I went to would suddenly house maybe 150 pins instead of 400. That is scary.
Now if real pinball stays on the course its on, or god forbid it gets worse, then look 30 years from now at what a pinball show will be like. Not only would the current classics be even more scarce, but we wouldn't have much of anything to represent this time period...at which point maybe we don't have any pinball shows at all.
How can we save pinball? I don't know. Keep emulation alive, that helps, we need VP/FP/VPM. However, if we have the room and cash for a pinball machine, please spend your money on the real thing. Even buying old used pins keeps the pinball market simulated, it shows activity, it shows people are still interested, and could in turn lift the spirits of those making real pinballs or even encourage new companies to try their hand at it. Even for those without money to spend, just playing VP/FP on your PC is support enough, and maybe keep spreading the word about it. Believe it or not, a lot of pinball enthusiasts aren't really aware of VP/FP.
As I am living proof that being introduced to the world of emulation can eventually lead to spending thousands of dollars on real pinball. VP/FP re-sparked my interest in pinball 5+ years ago, I got to learn about all the different tables and era's out there, and it got my hungry to own the real thing. And all 3 pinballs I own are tables I previously learned about, played and liked in emulation, and never would have known about otherwise and without VP/FP, I definitely wouldn't be a pin owner today.
As for keeping real pinball alive, I have some ideas that I know will work, I just hope they come to fruition someday. I think VP/FP cabs are pretty cool as a DIY thing, but real pinball desperately needs your support. Whether you buy a new $4,000 Stern, or an old used one for $300, it all helps.
#37
Posted 19 August 2009 - 03:36 AM
Hey robo I didn't read your whole post
(it's pretty long) but I did catch the part about how Stern markets to home owners. Yeah it sucks, but in the current age I don't think they have much of a choice. 2 reasons: their machines are too expensive for an arcade owner to recover their money on, and, as much as I hate to say it, too few people play pinball anymore.
Personal experience, as an example: there used to be a Bride of Pinbot, one of my faves, at a nearby laundromat. I got a free game on it but was running late for work so I had to leave it there. I come back a WEEK later and it's still there. Yeah, if it were in a better location it would be played more, but still.
I completely agree with your reasoning on owning a real pin vs. an Ultrapin vs. a DIY. I have two EMs myself (Satin Doll and Lariat) and try to take care of them. I'll gradually get more in the future.
And btw I love how pinballcat said that VP is like playtesting them
You're totally right; VP isn't perfect, but it's definitely good enough to be able to tell if a machine would be fun in real life or not. I like to browse ebay / craigslist, see what's available, and try those out on VP.
Personal experience, as an example: there used to be a Bride of Pinbot, one of my faves, at a nearby laundromat. I got a free game on it but was running late for work so I had to leave it there. I come back a WEEK later and it's still there. Yeah, if it were in a better location it would be played more, but still.
I completely agree with your reasoning on owning a real pin vs. an Ultrapin vs. a DIY. I have two EMs myself (Satin Doll and Lariat) and try to take care of them. I'll gradually get more in the future.
And btw I love how pinballcat said that VP is like playtesting them
#38
Posted 19 August 2009 - 12:21 PM
Hey Robo,
Fantastic post - I agree whole heartily with your sentiments. We had a pinball meet last weekend with over 50 attending and around 20 pins (from 70s to 90s). The social aspect of pins was something I never expected to be so strong.
I also attended a pinball expo in Sydney a few months back. They had about 40 + pins setup (all on free play), and I have the same comments as you, dad showing his kids the pins, people of all ages appreciating the artwork, and the machines. I chatted a lot with people who played pins when they were younger and quite a few people who had never played a pin before. I had a great time. I also played some machines I had never heard off, and a few that I thought I'd never get to play (such as sterns 24, Cactus canyon, Medieval madness). Pins in good condition (or of this caliber) are hard to find in the wild where I live.
My son (aged 4) loves playing pinball. He actually likes to play the virtual pins more than the real ones.
I also enjoy modern video games, but I love pins more.
If it wasn't for virtual pinball I wouldn't own any real pinball machines. Virtual pinball bought back memories of playing pins when I was younger. Now I currently own 4 real pins (Whitewater, Star trek next gen, theatre of Magic and Indiana Jones (Williams)), with a Twilight Zone to be delivered within the next few weeks.
I have a pretty good virtual pin setup (dual screen cabinet with nanotechs nudge/tilt sensor/ digital plunger using hyperpin as the frontend), and I have to admit the strides made recently in pinball emulation / computer pinball hardware are extraordinary. Especially the vp9 table releases from the likes of Groni, JpSalas, Unclewilly, BBB, and Lord Hiryu to name few. (sorry to anyone I've missed)
I appreciate the virtual pins (and the authors that spend the time creating them) as its not often you get to play the more expensive machines such as cactus canyon, medieval madness, Attack from Mars, etc as for most of us they are out of our price range.
I am all for anything that introduces people to pinball. A friend of mines son (he's 15) had never seen a pinball before. The first time he came to my house I had two pins (indy and whitewater)- he paid no attention to them at first, but after a while he heard myself and his dad playing the pins and came to see what all the commotion was. At first he didn't get it, saying pinball is simple and easy compared to modern video games. I explained the rules, gave him some play tips and he had a go. I opened one of the pins and let him hold a pinball in his hand , and showed him the wiring, the solenoids, the circuit boards, etc. He is now hooked on virtual pinball and his ps2 gets a lot less use than it used to. He enjoys playing my pins. He has introduced his friends to virtual pinball and they too are amazed. A few of my workmates (who at first showed no interest in my pinball obsession - in fact they thought I was nuts) are now building virtual pinball cabinets and frequently come over to play the real pins.
However if I had more space and more money nothing compares to the real thing. (Hence why I have spent thousands of dollars on real pins).
I also use vp for playtesting to see which pins I might like to play in the future, or even purchase if I like it enough. I agree with the comment above that you usually can tell if its going to be fun or not in real life.
anyway enough of my rambling.
I'd vote for both - a handful of real pins (or more if you have the space) and a good virtual pinball/ future pinball cabinet.
Fantastic post - I agree whole heartily with your sentiments. We had a pinball meet last weekend with over 50 attending and around 20 pins (from 70s to 90s). The social aspect of pins was something I never expected to be so strong.
I also attended a pinball expo in Sydney a few months back. They had about 40 + pins setup (all on free play), and I have the same comments as you, dad showing his kids the pins, people of all ages appreciating the artwork, and the machines. I chatted a lot with people who played pins when they were younger and quite a few people who had never played a pin before. I had a great time. I also played some machines I had never heard off, and a few that I thought I'd never get to play (such as sterns 24, Cactus canyon, Medieval madness). Pins in good condition (or of this caliber) are hard to find in the wild where I live.
My son (aged 4) loves playing pinball. He actually likes to play the virtual pins more than the real ones.
I also enjoy modern video games, but I love pins more.
If it wasn't for virtual pinball I wouldn't own any real pinball machines. Virtual pinball bought back memories of playing pins when I was younger. Now I currently own 4 real pins (Whitewater, Star trek next gen, theatre of Magic and Indiana Jones (Williams)), with a Twilight Zone to be delivered within the next few weeks.
I have a pretty good virtual pin setup (dual screen cabinet with nanotechs nudge/tilt sensor/ digital plunger using hyperpin as the frontend), and I have to admit the strides made recently in pinball emulation / computer pinball hardware are extraordinary. Especially the vp9 table releases from the likes of Groni, JpSalas, Unclewilly, BBB, and Lord Hiryu to name few. (sorry to anyone I've missed)
I appreciate the virtual pins (and the authors that spend the time creating them) as its not often you get to play the more expensive machines such as cactus canyon, medieval madness, Attack from Mars, etc as for most of us they are out of our price range.
I am all for anything that introduces people to pinball. A friend of mines son (he's 15) had never seen a pinball before. The first time he came to my house I had two pins (indy and whitewater)- he paid no attention to them at first, but after a while he heard myself and his dad playing the pins and came to see what all the commotion was. At first he didn't get it, saying pinball is simple and easy compared to modern video games. I explained the rules, gave him some play tips and he had a go. I opened one of the pins and let him hold a pinball in his hand , and showed him the wiring, the solenoids, the circuit boards, etc. He is now hooked on virtual pinball and his ps2 gets a lot less use than it used to. He enjoys playing my pins. He has introduced his friends to virtual pinball and they too are amazed. A few of my workmates (who at first showed no interest in my pinball obsession - in fact they thought I was nuts) are now building virtual pinball cabinets and frequently come over to play the real pins.
However if I had more space and more money nothing compares to the real thing. (Hence why I have spent thousands of dollars on real pins).
I also use vp for playtesting to see which pins I might like to play in the future, or even purchase if I like it enough. I agree with the comment above that you usually can tell if its going to be fun or not in real life.
anyway enough of my rambling.
I'd vote for both - a handful of real pins (or more if you have the space) and a good virtual pinball/ future pinball cabinet.
Edited by Michael2, 19 August 2009 - 12:41 PM.
#39
Posted 22 August 2009 - 01:45 AM
QUOTE (templarjh @ Aug 18 2009, 11:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey robo I didn't read your whole post
(it's pretty long) but I did catch the part about how Stern markets to home owners. Yeah it sucks, but in the current age I don't think they have much of a choice. 2 reasons: their machines are too expensive for an arcade owner to recover their money on, and, as much as I hate to say it, too few people play pinball anymore.
Personal experience, as an example: there used to be a Bride of Pinbot, one of my faves, at a nearby laundromat. I got a free game on it but was running late for work so I had to leave it there. I come back a WEEK later and it's still there. Yeah, if it were in a better location it would be played more, but still.
I completely agree with your reasoning on owning a real pin vs. an Ultrapin vs. a DIY. I have two EMs myself (Satin Doll and Lariat) and try to take care of them. I'll gradually get more in the future.
And btw I love how pinballcat said that VP is like playtesting them
You're totally right; VP isn't perfect, but it's definitely good enough to be able to tell if a machine would be fun in real life or not. I like to browse ebay / craigslist, see what's available, and try those out on VP.
Personal experience, as an example: there used to be a Bride of Pinbot, one of my faves, at a nearby laundromat. I got a free game on it but was running late for work so I had to leave it there. I come back a WEEK later and it's still there. Yeah, if it were in a better location it would be played more, but still.
I completely agree with your reasoning on owning a real pin vs. an Ultrapin vs. a DIY. I have two EMs myself (Satin Doll and Lariat) and try to take care of them. I'll gradually get more in the future.
And btw I love how pinballcat said that VP is like playtesting them
Sry for the long post, I've always been like that. I kinda get into a zone, but when people complain...hey, I never said anybody has to read the whole thing! A good skimming will usually do.
But obviously I have a lot to say on the subject at hand, as when Ultrapin was first announced a few years back, I was very much scolded for my few comments going against that whole idea at the old forums.
It was way overpriced, limited amount of tables, ect.
If they knock a couple g's of the price and allow the user to add on any game they want, then that would be a better thing for pinball in general. The whole point of VP/FP, to me, is to be able to see and play those hundreds of tables and originals that you rarely or never get to play otherwise.
Again, as a DIY project I think its great. However, let's remember that a cabinet is not a must to play VP/FP. After all, tables were made to play on regular computer monitors, 4:3 monitors (but thank god for widescreens having either the vertical mode and the aspect ratio lock). I also think that when you take most LCD monitors vertical, they weren't made for that, and you get a lot of color wash out due to the extreme viewing angles.
Thus, I got my nice regular 24" LG widescreen and that is plenty good enough for me just in its ordinary position.
As for Stern, yes I also agree that the way things are now they would have a hard time (at this point) switching things up and starting a marketing campaign that is any different.
Make no mistake, when it comes to pinball these days, making a bold move to get it really back on the scene is totally high risk, but possibly high reward. People, pin fans, know what to expect from Stern, and Stern obliges. Stern probably feels like if they are staying afloat here that they don't want to take a chance and possibly go under, and thus they will keep doing what they are doing.
However, I don't think it has to be that way. They have their own ideas of how to run their business, but I certainly don't think that their way is the best or only way.
People trash Pinball 2000. However, I applaud the effort to try something different. Granted, it was a bit too extreme, but they were on track with the idea that something different needed to be done to shake things up a bit, gain some hype, some buzz.
Unfortunately, that whole thing was too little too late. Williams had pretty much decided to fold on pinball the day they thought that they needed to do something crazy as a last ditch effort.
Let me also make a crazy statement, but hear me out people. I think playfield toys were the death of pinball. Yes, they spawned a bunch of the most wildly popular pinball games ever. Funhouse started it off, people were amazed with rudy's head. After that, people expected pinballs to have fun toys and gimmicks. Myself included. And it was a great thing for years, having these cool toys.
However, then comes the year 2000. By this time, cool toys on a pinball were nice, but nothing new. The "wow" factor was gone, it was commonplace. And at this point, and to this day you can't find a modern pinball without toys and plastic overload. We pinball lovers still like the new pins, but then again we are happy taking whatever we can get.
It is the casual pinballers that started feeling indifferent about pinball. And let's blame the companies too. I understand they needed to cut corners sometimes to cut production costs, but I think they often cut the wrong corners. For example when pinball artists started losing work and we started seeing awful photos (or lackluster art) on backglasses and playfields in favor of keeping the plastic toys and gimmicks.
All I can say is things can be done better these days, I believe you can go back to some of the things that made pinball popular in the 1st place, but still keep a modest touch of modern goodness.
#40
Posted 02 September 2009 - 09:21 PM
A Real pinball machine. Nothing can beat that!
As for pure playing pleasure that is. The feel, the contact, the visuals, the rush, etc.
If you would have 1 cabinet with 200 pinball games thats overkill (i think).
Have: Tales from the Crypt
Had: Timemachine (zaccaria)
ST:TNG
Had: Timemachine (zaccaria)
ST:TNG


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