103 replies to this topic

[StevOz]

??? No! Don't look at the ball. Forget the ball. When nudge is applied table is moved in one direction.
When table moved back - it is counter force.
Since table did get back to its starting position that means you have counter force which is 100%.

And now the ball - nudge force is never applied to the ball - force is applied to the table.
Ball only has inertia and friction forces acting on it.
Inertia is trying to keep it in same position and friction is moving the ball with the table.
The fact that you see ball moving is not because you acted on ball - it's because you acted on table which moved, and inertia acted on ball and kept it still.

Then why does the ball not only move with the VP9 nudge and it does, it also changes trajectory, even when it never comes in contact with anything, yes it does this against the laws of physics, this is why it cannot be correct via any scripting, it's fundamentally broken you see.

You mean when the ball is moving across the playfield at 20 miles an hour, and stops and turns around because of a nudge? Ya.. That is a bit unrealistic. It didn't do that in VP8?

I didn't say that, you did, though it does alter change trajectory by a greater degree then is physically possible mid playfield without coming in contact with anything, also without the counter nudge scripting you can nudge a ball all the way up the shooter lane, that just should not be possible in the first instance.

I wasn't arguing. I have seen the ball change directory when moving fast. I thought that's what you were talking about, and I agreed with you. Then I asked if it did that in VP8? (I have never used VP8)

It never happens with the VP8 nudge to answer your question.

[StevOz]

Why is it that any attempt to try and work around a flaw in the new vp has to lead to a debate about how it never should have been changed in the first place and it is all because of the cabinet users.
Get the f@%k over it already.
Guess what? it did get changed by a company who licensed the software, and they also added a bunch of new features, until the current devs get a chance to look at it, it's gonna be the same, so what is the big debate over. Blur and jp are simply trying to peovide a method in which to make it more correct, not absolutely correct, but closer. If you think vp8 nudging is real world accurate you must have never played a real table.
If the nudging is that bad, just use vp8 and there won't be any problem for you.
harping on the issue in every thread that even mentions the word nudging is not helping.
At least this is a step to make it slightly more realistic until the devs have a chance to look at the code.

I agree it is an improvement and have already said so, also just using VP8 is not a solution, nor is any script able to fully correct the VP9 nudge. I'm just stating the facts of the matter, you can't call it a debate either because those are facts, though yes this code is most likely the best compromise that can be had with the VP9 nudge as it is at the moment. Nothing to get over either and no need to tell me or anyone such rubbish, m'kay.

Edited by StevOz, 19 January 2011 - 11:04 PM.

[blur]

You mean when the ball is moving across the playfield at 20 miles an hour, and stops and turns around because of a nudge? Ya.. That is a bit unrealistic. It didn't do that in VP8?

was it maybe on the front nudge?
that is fixed, now it will only move faster to the drain if you do front nudge
as for side nudges, put the same return force (1 instead of 0.7) and the ball will come back on track every time
unless it bumps into something. also turn shaker off so that you can watch just the ball as it moves back and forth.
try it steve, you'll be surprised

so as i see it, it all can be fixed.

I don't see anything completely wrong in current vp9 nudging scheme. It is just a system that is completely misunderstood. As I said that to shockman before and he didn't believed it.
Current nudging system is developed to be used with pinball wizard or some other joystick or gamepad that is turned upside down and every movement it detects it transfers to the ball with the same angle and force.
This way if you nudge table that hanging ball will swing, first toward your palm, and then back to the other side.
VP will interpret this as two consecutive nudges in opposite directions and you will have your nudge and counter nudge.
This system didn't had to think about physics and how the ball will react - it had the ball, real heavy ball that did the thinking for him, and VP just has to do whatever the ball does. And by all laws of physics ball hanging on light joystick behaves same as the ball on the table.

When taken out of pin wizz. several mistakes were made - first some directions were taken wrong (up/down) and second counter force was forgotten, cause when you do button press and table nudges in whatever direction that is only half of the job, as you can see from above "contemplation" or as you would see on pin wiz, or as you see every day on real pin.

There were thousands of posts about shake or no shake problem. I'm sorry to tell you guys but shaking or not shaking is not the hart of the problem. It is totally irrelevant do you move table on the screen or you move ball on the screen as long as you keep THE RELATION between them right. You can move table one inch left, or ball one inch right - effect is the same.

So only thing that matters is how much force you apply 1,2,3,0.1,0.5, ... - it is customizable
And directions - which are fixed
And counter force which is fixed as much as scripting allows (I can't set very small time like one pulser tic - 40 miliseconds - because in such a small time vp doesn't register second nudge)
It's true that in real pinball you have nudge that lasts millisecond, and one that can last half a second, but in vp9 you have fixed time and three fixed directions for nudging.

When dev team unleashes the power of analog nudging you will be able to nudge in all directions, all forces, and all lengths.

Best regards
Blur

Edited by blur, 20 January 2011 - 07:36 AM.

[blur]

Here are hardcore settings for people that like vp8 nudging more:

put tiempofiltro to 200 (so five nudges per sec is maximum, if your tilt bob sends too much nudges you can tune it to greater value) or even 100
put return force to 1 or 100% (mReturnForce = aForce)
put return counter to 4 (this is actually time of the nudge, after this time counter force is applied, 3 is too small cause vp skips second nudge, smaller the time is, smaller is the path that ball can move so the nudge is also smaller)
put nudge counter interval to 1000 (it will be very easy to tilt)
try some tables that use jp/noah script that additionally reduces nudge strength during one second
try some vp8 tables without any nudging code

in one of my previous posts you have exact places in script where each parameter is set (places in code are marked with ************)

Edited by blur, 20 January 2011 - 07:58 AM.

[Blitz17]

I am using a couple of mercury switches for side nudge on my mini cabinet. It seems I was getting too much ball movement with the old core.vbs and not enough with this newest version based on my cabinet setup. What would be the settings I can adjust to split the difference?

Thanks

[blur]

there are some settings that every table has, like force and sensitivity
but aside from that the most important setting in this core.vbs would definitely be return force percent

it makes all the difference

if you put it to 0 there is no return force so when you nudge ball just goes to one side - that's very easy and unreal nudging - that's how it is in VP9 if you don't use this new core.vbs and that's how it is in FP

then when you put return force 0.5 - ball will move for example one inch left and then half inch right - still enough movement do get what you want

and finally hardcore nudging - return force is 1 - so after each one inch left nudge - you go one inch right - and if you did not pick the right moment to nudge (for example when ball is close to the flipper) the ball will just return to its path and go down the drain. This is exactly like in VP8 and VP8 fans will love it.

And now - QUESTION FOR ALL - do you agree that we put this core.vbs in next official release together with other vbs scripts and what would you suggest for default values for ALL users. Each one of us that saw this thread can fix their own settings to their own likings, but what should be default for all new users that will download vp and will never look at any scripts.
What return force percent, what tiempofiltro, shake or not (maybe to check if table is rotated and shake only if it's not rotated), and so on...?

So the question is should we make vp9 behave like vp8 (return 1) or put return force to 0 and use it as it is now, or somewhere in between (0.5)? Think about what would be best for MOST OF USERS?

PS: Did you noticed that for FP in a cab to nudge in same direction as VP you have to switch nudge keys?

Edited by blur, 24 January 2011 - 08:54 PM.

[Rawd]

Yes Blur, FP nudge is backwards by default.

I think I would like to see this core.vbs in a compiled version of VP. What would be even better is to have a user friendly menu in the editor to change the nudge and return values (per table and save?).

Edited by Rawd, 24 January 2011 - 09:45 PM.

[blur]

I could put few variables in core.vbs or in cvpmnudge class and you could leave them as they are or set these values as you like from your table script.
Just like you set now angle and force and tilt sensitivity.

What about sounds? Can i put somewhere a nudge and tilt sound for use when there is no sound in the table? wav or mp3 file maybe? How do i play sound file from disk? For tables that don't have nudge or tilt sound in rom. And you could also change these sounds from table script.

Edited by blur, 24 January 2011 - 10:35 PM.

[pinball buzz]

Yes Blur, FP nudge is backwards by default.

I think I would like to see this core.vbs in a compiled version of VP. What would be even better is to have a user friendly menu in the editor to change the nudge and return values (per table and save?).

Agree with you there Rawd,

Buzz

[Rawd]

Yes Blur, FP nudge is backwards by default.

I think I would like to see this core.vbs in a compiled version of VP. What would be even better is to have a user friendly menu in the editor to change the nudge and return values (per table and save?).

Agree with you there Rawd,

Buzz

Even if not per table, a user friendly global setting would be nice too.

[FDSystems]

It´seems to me you are like Formula 1 engineers, exchanging experiences, informations, theories, tip & tricks to make the car a winner.

One day the results will appear on my screen, & I´ll be able to drive a close to perfect version of VP !

This is FAR OUT ! imo.

Edited by 1234fd, 25 January 2011 - 01:57 AM.

[Blitz17]

Thank you Blur for the break down on the settings and highlighting the most effective single setting. I do think the ball moves too much with the current install core.vbs but for me the new beta one reduced the movement too much on my cab. If I had to chose I would chose the old because I would rather be able to save the ball then not save it. But the quest to get to a more accurate nudge is very worthy.

As a non developer but a bit of a hacker I would like to see the nudge adjustment included as a user friendly setting in the editor. Perhaps a drop down or select box for high (return 0), medium (.5), low (1) or maybe even a slider scale from 0-10 for fine tuning (0=return value of 0 and 10=1).

I think including tilt sounds is an excellent idea.

[blur]

Here is new core.vbs v3.33 http://www.mediafire...nuz7ydt0rbp2lrl

What's new - sounds for nudge and tilt are added - to be able to play them from ALL tables you'll have to put nudge and tilt mp3 files to music dir

These parameters are cofigured inside core.vbs:

CODE

        ' set defaults for all tables here or change them from your table script
        NudgeInterval = 1000    ' time in ms after which nudge count goes down
        TiempoFiltro = 200        ' nudge filtering time in ms
        ReturnTime = 200        ' time after which return force bumps in
        ReturnPercent = 0        ' return force strength 0-100
        NudgeSound = ""            ' sound has to be in table
        TiltSound = ""            ' sound has to be in table
        NudgeMusic = "nudge.mp3" ' put this file in music dir
        TiltMusic = "tilt.mp3"    ' put this file in music dir
        'StartShake                ' uncomment to enable table shaking

you can leave them as they are or tune them for all tables
each one of these parameters is public so you can change them from table script also, together with tiltswitch and sensitivity

As you can see return force percent is by default set to zero cause most of the people will want easier nudging.
If you want hardcore nudging like in vp8 set it to 100

By the way - for some reason on my pc mp3 sounds won't play in vp if you open them with media player. Media player adds some 4 kbs of data and VP doesn't like it, so I've put write permission to off for these files so that you don't ruin them by accident.

You can put any other sound for nudge and tilt, I'm using solenoid sound for nudge and some tilt sound from one of the machines for tilt.

You can also use any wav sound from table for nudge and tilt and set it from table script.

Edited by blur, 22 January 2012 - 10:07 PM.

[Blitz17]

Excellent. Can't wait to test this out. Thanks.

[Rawd]

Thanks Blur!

[chriz]

awesome!!

[ANDROID]

It really sounds like a lot of work and effort was put into the realism for vp9 nudging. I think for those of us who won't be getting a full screen monitor any time soon, that the nudging settings for 4:3, 16:9, FS, Spanned tables be tested separately. Would it be possible for a consensus of builders and player/testers to experiment with a wide open popular table. Present 1, 2, 3, 4& 5 possible nudging/counterforce settings for the masses to test out.
For example, release Medieval Madness table five times with the script as such

MM(n1) JP vp9 v1.2beta weakest
MM(n2) JP vp9 v1.2beta
MM(n3) JP vp9 v1.2beta
MM(n4) JP vp9 v1.2beta
MM(n5) JP vp9 v1.2beta strongest 35% of Future pinball nudging.

for us scripture challenged, to test out. Or any other popular table with an open PF. If you leave it at a challenging nudge, not no nudge, but a challenging nudge, maybe it could show up as a feature by pressing an "n" keyboard feature with the default being n2. I am worried that the whole, leave it up to the player instead of making it a default standard option, will render any friendly competitions without some accepted standards, somewhat pointless.

As a frequent Hi Score player, in both vp8 and vp9, but without much/no scripting skills, I take the table as it comes, figuring the author will make it an adventure for all skills, therefore a n1 or n2 settings. with enough increments everyone could poll the most realistic. A substitute might be to have five 3.33vbs releases like levels of hot sauce, from mild to habeniero. You would get a wider range of opinions other than just a few authors/testers. If the parameters are real close then the five increments would amount to about an 1/8 of an inch after both nudge/counterforce are applied.
Probably once the votes are in, you could fine tune it within the most popular versions for nudge realism and do it again. There is no sense rushing a bunch of tables with the new core vbs3.33 changes that allow a real diverse(vp8 to Future Pinball) range of nudging.
In my eyes thats what killed Future Pinball, as far as realism.
Lets make it feel like real on each platform, with a large amount of testers, and their opinions.

Edited by ANDROID, 07 February 2011 - 10:29 AM.

[unclewilly]

this sounds like a good idea android. I know i use jp/noahs, nudge scripting, But to get a standard script for it would be really nice. Something we could all just place into our tables. I don't nudge a lot on my real tables( i guess that is why i am such a sucky player) so i hope maybe noah and jpl could come up with a better standard for nudging. I usually adopt there standard as they seem to get the most realistic results for what we have to work with. The only thing i don't agree on is having t buttons for nudging (hard and soft nudge). I guess i'd just like to have a standard that covers all viewing angles.

Yes Blur, FP nudge is backwards by default.

I think I would like to see this core.vbs in a compiled version of VP. What would be even better is to have a user friendly menu in the editor to change the nudge and return values (per table and save?).

The core.vbs isn't part of vp, it's part of pinmame.
I think the nudging in vp just needs to be reworked in the source. maybe a nice medium between vp8 and vp9

[blur]

Actually i think only 1 config is real - and that is full counter force (100% or hardcore).

But here comes the problem - in vp9 AND fp nudging was one directional and sometimes in wrong directions from the start
(BTW in FP you can fix all nudge directions by tuning physics xml inside the exe but you can't have counter force - only with analog joystick).
So what we have now is two applications that nudge like crazy and people that got used to it and like it.

Since I don't want to take anything from people and since i don't like when someone takes anything from me (like microsoft when he took away menus from office 2007 and internet explorer - i hated that, still hate it and use firefox ) i made default without counter force - no big change and no questions from angry users and we keep peace in house AND you can keep FP and VP nudge almost the same so that you have consistent feel on your cab

But every one that likes it can set counter force to 100 or less (or more )
Or anyone that has trigger happy bulb can increase filter time to more then 200 milisec.
or anyone that likes to nudge hard can set nudge interval to less then one second.

for competitions - i think 2 mods are just enough -
1. defaults
2. hardcore
I don't think each table should be made in 5 versions since that's just too much waste of bandwidth and space, instead you can just have few version of core.vbs and use them whenever you like.

Editing core.vbs is peace of cake - you just find section that begins with:
' set defaults for all tables here or change them from your table script
and change your values like you want them.
You don't have to install autohotkey or compile anything since this is visual basic script and not autohotkey script.


To see what people think i suggest to admins to add poll with options:

1. I would like to add this core.vbs 3.33 to mainstream scripts collection AS IS with above defaults
2. I would negotiate about some defaults and then add it to vbs files
3. I would not put this script in main scripts distribution


Oh, and BTW - please can someone with pinball wizard (exotic, noah) or any analog joystick (rawd, rascal) try if this script affects the PBW in any way (it should not - but just in case).

Best regards
blur

Edited by blur, 18 February 2011 - 10:13 AM.

[baconcc]

PART 1 NSID - Great work blur!

I absolutely agree that most of the issues surrounding nudge and tilt are a result of one simply not understanding how their table hardware and software work together.

It is vital to break down each component of your table that effects the nudge/tilt on your setup:

1. Nudge sensing and input devices

Plumb bobs
Inertial sensors
Mercury switches
Etc....

Each type of device has different characteristics. There are even variations between "like" devices.... ie: mercury switches all behave differently..... In fact, no two are alike.

2. It is vital to understand how each variable in the core.vbs script effects the VP software, settings and table script for each table. (Although, I do not yet understand how these scripts and programs all interact.

(Note: I am no expert on this. I built my first table last week. I am just beginning to get some good nudging results thanks to blur).

Here are factors that effect how your video display will register hits from your nudge/tile sensor/input device (NSID).........I think:

Core.vbs version
Core.vbs script settings
VP version
VP physics settings
Table script settings

In other words, the motion of the pinball when you play and register a nudge will be effected by these software factors and maybe others that I have not yet discovered.

Help - Please tell me more. Where are all of the places where you can adjust this nudge/tilt feature if using ?

VP
FP
HP

Edited by baconcc, 15 March 2011 - 02:57 PM.