1031 replies to this topic

[wrd1972]

Hanz,

Thanks for chiming in on this.

 

My request would be to have something added to the core that allows for all objects (EXLUDING lights and flashers), to have their intensities adjustable together, in "camera/light edit" mode. It would just be another adjustment along side "Environment Emission". I would not propose replacing the day/night slider though.

 

With this ability, all of the tables could hopefully have their lighting improved easily and quickly to match each others personal taste. I showed off the cab at a show over the weekend and one of the complaint was, "Why do some tables look correct for a dark room while others look like they are outdoors"? If you are willing to consider this, I would gladly help you test. But if we could get this function working or something similar to it, it would go a long way of reducing one of the big critiques I received from many folks over the weekend.

 

Thanks

[toxie]

You already have both LightEmissionScale(float) and EnvironmentEmissionScale(float), which are also in use by the day/night slider, btw. (or more like an additional factor that is only kept around internally, and then these two are modulated based on that)

 

And as said, VP light objects and flashers are already excluded from these two scales (LightEmissionScale only scales the two "real" light sources hanging over the playfield, not the "fake" VP light objects). If you think they are not, then this is a sideeffect on how their blending over the objects work.

 

Note also that this light/environment scale is of course also not linear in perception as the internal HDR image that is rendered is postprocessed/tonemapped in the end to be able to be displayed on our LDR monitors and TVs.

So i fear that the most sane solution (for the VPX timeframe, might change with VP11) is to look at hanzoverfists carefully tuned heuristics (after all it seems to work for multiple dozens of very different tables).

Edited by toxie, 08 March 2018 - 03:09 PM.

[wrd1972]

Quick question when VP11 time comes on down the road. Is it likely that VP10 tables will be upward compatible? Or will we need to rework them again. I know you guys will make every attempt to do this.

Just curious as to how likely it will be. If you cant say...totally understandable.

[toxie]

As you say, we will definetly try. But it's also unclear when we will really start with VP11 and what it will be like.

I'm at the moment still flooded with real life stuff, and i think for fuzzel it's currently similar.

 

I fear that at least the lighting of tables will have to be redone, as currently it's mostly fake (-> VP light objects and flashers!) or even precomputed light/shadowmaps by the authors.

Also, as VP11 will most likely be fully dynamic rendered, there might be issues with some tables that currently heavily rely on the static object rendering optimization in VPX.

[bord]

I fear that at least the lighting of tables will have to be redone, as currently it's mostly fake (-> VP light objects and flashers!) or even precomputed light/shadowmaps by the authors.

 

YES!

[wrd1972]

Quick question regarding improving saucer physics. Maybe this has already been asked.

 

Can a "converter" function be created that will raise/lower every single object on the table by x units?

[hanzoverfist]

@wrd1972, unfortunately at this time, no general/easy solution exists for what you are looking for (and conversely: what I was looking for) to up/down light intensity of tables without serious artifacts. The only solution was to make one myself.

 

With my solution I can currently: play a table during the day, with competing daylight and display reflections and still play the table extremely well, and that same table at night turned way down to lowest day/night setting and play the table without going blind.

 

Also in my solution you choose what you want to have modified, yes a general overall solution is implemented and required, but lights and flashers are still controlled at the discretion of the author. but that being said, I have found for improved day to night transitions those two elements should be included. The only lights I don't touch are inserts. 

[wrd1972]

Now I did take a look at the light height setting as it appears in "camera/light edit". It appears that this might be a quick and dirty method of doing what I want. So when light height is reduced to 1000, it give a very nice day appearance along with some realistic glare. And when it is raised to 5000, a very nice night appearance is produced. Pretty much anything 5000 or > looks the same with no significant change. I wonder if this might be consistent across all tables?

 

So let me ask this.

Is there a command that can be added to the script to have the table start using x light height? Or is it only adjustable using the current light height setting?

Edited by wrd1972, 08 March 2018 - 04:39 PM.

[fuzzel]

Sad but true it's again a value that is used before the script engine is started. If you start the player the table is initialized and the static stuff is rendered and after that the script engine is started. We can't change the script starting because it has other dependencies that could make trouble while staying the table.

[wrd1972]

Quick question regarding improving saucer physics. Maybe this has already been asked.

 

Can a "converter" function be created that will raise/lower every single object on the table by x units?

Fuzzel,

How about this?

[fuzzel]

 

Quick question regarding improving saucer physics. Maybe this has already been asked.

 

Can a "converter" function be created that will raise/lower every single object on the table by x units?

Fuzzel,

How about this?

 

What kind of function do you mean: a script function or a feature in the editor that would raise/lower all elements by x units?

[wrd1972]

"feature in the editor that would raise/lower all elements by x units?"

This ^

 

Every single object can be raised by x units and then we can add a raised PF and hack in the the saucer physics the Rothbauer has created.

[fuzzel]

"feature in the editor that would raise/lower all elements by x units?"

This ^

 

Every single object can be raised by x units and then we can add a raised PF and hack in the the saucer physics the Rothbauer has created.

But you will loose the playfield reflection.

[hauntfreaks]

I'll throw this in here... like many I have played real pins on and off my whole life.... I lived thru the dark (low light) arcade days.... my local-ish arcade now is a dark arcade.... and I believe what we are creating right now is a great representation of what i see in the real world... is more control a bad thing??... of course not, but what we have isnt just good enough... its pretty damn good... also in the real world, only home pins are played in complete darkness... and using photos or video for REALISTIC comparison, is worthless, because what were seeing in pics are cameras struggling to grab as much light as possible and in doing so the lights are over exposed while the dark areas are under exposed.... and this is nowhere what our eyes really see when playing in low light conditions... 
anyway thats my 2 pennies... 

[wrd1972]

Haunt,

Check your in-box. Been trying to reach you with some backglass images.

[hanzoverfist]

 thats my 2 pennies... 

 

you don't have two pennies.. maybe one!

Edited by hanzoverfist, 08 March 2018 - 09:27 PM.

[Mandolin]

Night mode for disabling DOF and contactors and lights? With combo of buttons? For people who play while his wife/husband is slept. Just ideas!

[hauntfreaks]

 

 thats my 2 pennies... 

 

you don't have two pennies.. maybe one!

 

 

does that mean I have no "cents".... <rim shot>

[Drybonz]

Along the lines of realism... I think this has been mentioned before, but I will throw it out in the ring again.  Balls that are at rest and captive balls are spinning and jittering... is this a fixable physics thing?

[toxie]

I tried my best on this in the past (thanks JF for bugging me a lot! ), so this is the best compromise i could come up with.

 

There is a 'NEW_PHYSICS' code path internally, too, that removes some of the evil hacks, unifies behavior of different table elements more, and lessens these resting ball issues, too, as a result. The problem is that this also influences the 'feel' in some of the ball interactions, so the beta testers were not 100% pleased (including me).

Night mode for disabling DOF and contactors and lights? With combo of buttons? For people who play while his wife/husband is slept. Just ideas!

 

Up to the DOF code to do this, so arngrim would be a good person to talk to.