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VP physics overhaul


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#301 mukuste

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:07 PM

Thanks, lio, for the feedback, there are some very good questions in there, let me address that point by point:

 

"Mass" setting:
Flipper bats are pretty light-weight (just the the actual bat itself is certainly lighter than a pinball - together with the metal rod that is attached to it it might weigh about the same as a ball but the weight is distributed very unevenly).

 

The first assumption we have to make is that the flipper is modeled as a rigid body, i.e., doesn't deform as it moves. (The rubber is obviously a different story, its elasticity is modeled through a separate parameter.) This seems pretty reasonable and makes the simulation much more efficient.

 

The theory/physics of rigid bodies is pretty well understood, and it turns out that, as long as the body rotates around a single axis, the distribution of mass enters only into a single parameter called the moment of inertia. Now I didn't expose this directly since it would be even more abstract for most people than the mass parameter, but it doesn't matter, the two are in a simple linear relationship. Here's some theory if you are interested: http://en.wikipedia....ment_of_inertia

 

So this means that, no matter how the mass in the whole flipper bat/armature construction is distributed, there is always a proper choice for the mass parameter which will model this distribution exactly.

 

Even better is that there is a relatively easy way to measure this parameter from a real table; we only need to measure the time the flipper needs to perform its forward stroke empty, and how long it takes with the ball on its tip. I'll link again to the derivation I made to estimate this parameter: https://bitbucket.or.../FlipperInertia (see the bit at the end about the Judge Dredd video).

 

 

In reality you obviously don't make the bats heavier to affect their interaction with the ball - to make flippers stronger/faster you can basically only:

 

You don't adjust the weight of the bat, no -- but it is certainly there and is a physical parameter which needs to be taken into account for realistic results. Note that this is separate from the stronger/faster adjustments that you mention, which are mostly controlled through the Strength parameter in the new physics.

 

(-replace worn parts)
-Replace the coil that drives the flipper with one that has more or less (magnetic) force to pull in the metal rod of the plunger and link assembly into the coil shaft which is translated into the rotational motion of the flipper bat.

 

This corresponds to adjusting the solenoid force and translates directly into adjusting the Strength parameter in the new physics.

 

-Replace nylon with brass coil sleeves or vice versa (even though I don't know how exactly the material choice influences gameplay)

 

I don't know enough about the physics of solenoids to understand exactly what this does, but I assume that this will again translate to a weaker/stronger solenoid and therefore an adjustment of the Strength parameter.

 

-How much of a noticeable hit the bat takes in "end position" from an incoming ball depends on the strength of the lower power coil that takes over once the end-of-stroke-switch has been triggered (even though different manufacturers handle this differently)

 

I model the hold coil in the following way: if the bat is within one degree of its end position, the coil force is reduced to one third. It might be interesting to play around with this parameter and see what it does. On the other hand, I don't want to overload VP users with dozens of physics parameters. So I'm not sure. Also there are so many different ways this is handled in real flippers; sometimes it might just be a timed pulse of the high-power coil which then goes into the low-power coil, or it's actually a switch at the end of the stroke.

 

What I'm curious about though is how large the area at the end of the stroke is where the hold coil takes effect. Is it really only at the very end? Is there a larger zone? This is hard for me to find out since I don't have a real flipper handy.

 

-A more light weight bat (if in reality there would be any real weight difference) would not move slower with a ball on it than a heavier one in my feeble physics understanding.

 

I was a bit too terse there, let me try again:
 
Imagine a flipper which performs its stroke in 100 ms empty. Now imagine the same flipper flipping with a ball on its tip, this will slow it down due to the added inertia from the ball mass; let's say it now takes 150 ms to perform its flip.
Now imagine the flipper has twice the mass, but again flips in 100 ms empty. This means that the solenoid needs to have twice the force. Therefore, with the ball on the tip of this flipper, its mass will matter less relative to the mass of the flipper and the flip might now take only, say, 125 ms.
In the limit, if you imagine an "infinitely heavy" flipper, it will not even feel the weight of the ball and therefore flip in 100 ms with and without it.
 
So, relatively speaking, if you have two flippers which move at the same speed (empty), but have different masses, then the lighter one will be slowed down more by the ball mass (since the ball mass is higher relative to that of the flipper). Again, the math is all here: https://bitbucket.or.../FlipperInertia
 
Make sense?
 
 
-"Return Strength Ratio" setting:
In my opinion this should not be tied to the coil strength as in reality it is just gravity along the playfield slope and a return spring that pushes/pulls (depending on manufacturer) the flipper back into its' start position.
So in reality you could insert a stronger and/or longer/shorter spring for more return speed/force regardless of the coil force.

 

 

Yes, this is true. I basically only reused this field since it was already there in the old physics.

 

However, it doesn't really matter: you have two values which you want to set, and whether you do this by setting both absolutely or setting the first one absolutely and the second one relatively to the first makes no difference. It may not be as meaningful physically, but the achieved result is exactly the same.

 

One could also make the point that on modern tables with very snappy flippers, the return spring will also tend to be stronger since having a very fast flipper with the sluggish return of a 70's EM flipper would feel odd. So there is a kind of correlation.


Edited by mukuste, 23 April 2014 - 08:25 PM.


#302 slashbot

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:34 PM

Not a great game but we had some physics fun!




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#303 ICPjuggla

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:59 PM

I really wish VPF had a table patching system.  This would make sharing physics tweaks for test purposes a total non-issue, the files would be tiny.    That would also make them more "disposable" when future releases that break them come out.
 
Such a patching system exists, unfortunately there's no way it will be used here due to the way it was named.
 
Ringorian - Agreed, I think the problem is that full VPT files are very big, and we probably don't want the download sections getting clogged with new versions of physics mod tables every time Mukuste releases a new version.

 
If you are wanting to do this, just shoot Dazz a PM on the other site.  I'm sure he'd be willing to help out.

My two penny's.....

Even if it is a patch, author(s) permission should be obtained for the table built the patch is accociated with.

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#304 BigBoss

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:53 PM

Ckovanda: I haven't had to give mass to any diverter gates and have 111 tables converted so far. What are some tables where you had to? I've found a lot of problems are created by overpowered flippers.

#305 Slydog43

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:29 PM

I love dragon, it played so well before the new physics.  Biggest complaint of the video was I could barely hear the "dragon sound".  Its great!.



#306 ckovanda

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 04:58 AM

Ckovanda: I haven't had to give mass to any diverter gates and have 111 tables converted so far. What are some tables where you had to? I've found a lot of problems are created by overpowered flippers.

 

Melon's new Twilight Zone, the left ramp diverter.  if you shootup the left ramp, the ball wraps around and flies through the diverter and disappears for good.  setting the diverter mass to 1 and power to 2400 allowed the ball to be diverted normally.

 

I think T2 chrome had a little launcher flipper that need the mass and strength changed in order to get the ball to leave the launch lane.



#307 boiydiego

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:21 AM

@slashbot your nudging works but in video totaly nudge fail ;-) had to only nudge to one side :D


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#308 lio

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 08:21 AM

Make sense?

 

Yes, it does :-) Thank you very much for taking the time to respond in such detail!



#309 ClarkKent

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:52 PM

Yeah UW is right, that is totally doable with current (even old) physics. It's just a pretty rare setup, usually you have a hole at the end of a ramp, so no bounce back happens (and, as UW said, usually the drop is scripted, though it needn't be with the new physics). Off hand I can't remember any real-world pinball table where this happens, though I'm sure there are some.


Can you explain in detail how to implement this feature in Roadshow (wire ramps rubber stopper)? I'm no table designer so I do not know to fix this myself...

#310 unclewilly

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:04 PM

Haven't looked at the table.
But most likely right where the opening in the ramp is, you will see a trigger object. Just click on it and drag it off the table. That should do it.

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#311 BigBoss

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:24 PM

Mukuste: modern flippers on DMD class games (all games from 1990 on from data east, Sega, stern, Williams) are pulsed and held. The end of stroke does not cut high power and has no effect on the initial flipper stroke. There is no power loss from the EOS switch. The flipper would behave the same with or without the switch on the initial stroke. Therefore, perhaps you should allow for a setting that does not reduce strength towards the end of the stroke by 1/3. You could call it solid state flipper mode or something maybe.

The modern flipper is pulsed by about 40 ms of high voltage then hold power is applied until the flipper button is released. The only role of EOS in modern flippers is to allow for recovery if a raised flipper is slammed by a fast moving ball. Without EOS, the bat would lower a bit. But with EOS, the CPU knows to send another high power pulse to raise the flipper back up.

Of course this isn't the case on older games where EOS was directly wired to the high voltage lug of the coil.

#312 gamefixer

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:39 PM

WOW! Just tried White Water and Monster Bash that are posted in this thread. VERY NICE!!! White Water plays so close to a real one now. Being able to make ramp and that lock shot off the backs of the flippers is great!

 

MB plays nice too but for some reason I cant hit Frank. Either he didnt come down when the game started or something else is wrong. 



#313 yagesz

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 03:21 PM

Gamefixer delete your NVRAM on MB. The drop targets on frank weren't comeing up. I deleted the NVRAM and problem solved.



#314 mukuste

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 05:20 PM

 

Yeah UW is right, that is totally doable with current (even old) physics. It's just a pretty rare setup, usually you have a hole at the end of a ramp, so no bounce back happens (and, as UW said, usually the drop is scripted, though it needn't be with the new physics). Off hand I can't remember any real-world pinball table where this happens, though I'm sure there are some.


Can you explain in detail how to implement this feature in Roadshow (wire ramps rubber stopper)? I'm no table designer so I do not know to fix this myself...

 

Well, I'm no table designer either, but have a look at this simple example... there's no magic to it, simply a ramp and at the end a wall with suitably high elasticity. In practice you'd make the wall invisible I guess.

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#315 BuckoBundy

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 05:47 PM

Hmm.. not the best table ever, but somehow I enjoyed shooting up  a bright green ramp. Bonus points for making it bounce back of the rubber and straight down the middle!

 

This may actually sprout some new table designs :P

 

 

Edit:

Joking aside, I spot some weird behaviour where the ball seems to be sticking to the outside of the ramp.

 

http://www.filedropp...amp-stopper-bug

 

The table linked above shows what I mean.


Edited by BuckoBundy, 24 April 2014 - 06:01 PM.


#316 mukuste

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:26 PM

Yes, I noticed that one too. I just confirmed that the same thing happens in VP9, so it's not a new bug. I wonder, are table authors familiar with these bugs? It seems like a pretty common situation and one that one would have to work around somehow. I guess this is the one that people mentioned where balls don't roll around the outer side of ramps properly?

 

Thanks for the test table, helps to track it down faster.



#317 jpsalas

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:15 PM

Yes, I noticed that one too. I just confirmed that the same thing happens in VP9, so it's not a new bug. I wonder, are table authors familiar with these bugs? It seems like a pretty common situation and one that one would have to work around somehow. I guess this is the one that people mentioned where balls don't roll around the outer side of ramps properly?

 

Thanks for the test table, helps to track it down faster.

 

Yes, this is a known bug. That's why we always add a wall at the sides of a ramp, if not the ball will stick to the side ramp like with glue. Another problem we had was to set two ramps too close to each other, since the side of one ramp has an influence on the other ramp, so the ball going up that ramp may hit "invisible" kind of force which will either stop the ball from going up or simply slow down the ball so it won't go up the ramp. These are known bugs from ages, and not just for VP9, I remember having this problem also in VP7 and 8, so it is an old bug. But we managed to make nice tables :)


Edited by jpsalas, 24 April 2014 - 07:16 PM.

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#318 evilantal

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:23 PM

I wanted to try this out tonight. But when I start physmod2 my playfield screen flashes, turns black and after a few seconds I see the desktop come back up with this errorbox:

 

Fatal error: HRESULT 88760868 at ..\RenderDevice.cpp:403

 

What could be causing that?



#319 jpsalas

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:24 PM

For example, here it is the same test table from a few posts ago, but this time the bottom of the ramp is a little higher than 0, say 25. Run the table and you'll see the outside ball trying to follow the ramp from the outside and then "falling" off. Ig you make the lower part of the ramp a little higher, the outside ball will stop and will keep bouncing there.

 


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#320 melon

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:53 PM

I find this interesting.

in the last JP test, If you "invert" the ramp (Swap top and bottom, same shape, same height points, but the bottom is near the kickers this time), it works right.

I don't know if ir helps...

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