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#3141 dyopp21

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 08:44 PM

Hello,

Yes I have a Nvidia gtx 760 if I remember correctly.
But my pc at work has also an nvidia card but a quadro and no stutter at all.
The only thing I haven't tested is installing the latest drivers.
I updated them maby two months ago so they are not the latest anymore.
Are you guys up to date on the drivers?

Jasper

Both my 660 and 770 are up to date on drivers.  Just updated them for more testing/tweaking (failing) last night.

 

EDIT:  I just noticed you used the word "stutter."  Are you talking about random stutter, no matter where the ball is on the playfield?  The issue I'm working on is strictly one band of tearing that runs the length of the screen.  I used to have random ball stutter on both systems as well, but fixed it by turning off all FXAA and ambient occlusion in the VPX video settings.  


Yeah, less time for Facebook and Amazon

So I'm not the only one?  Whew!


Edited by dyopp21, 27 October 2015 - 08:57 PM.

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#3142 toxie

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 08:48 PM

 

 

- playfield reflection handling improved and optimized, please test if this works as before.

 

It's done something to the alpha layer on a playfield image if using these for holes..

 

 

In a good or bad way?  :)



#3143 Jafjas

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 08:51 PM

Whahahahahahaha

You guys do know that visual pinball is a fulltime job to, right?!

#3144 chepas

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 08:55 PM

In a bad way :) but I doubt it's too trivial, we may have been here before.

 

https://www.dropbox..../holes.jpg?dl=0

 

Static render fixed the drop targets (should've already been static to my knowledge) but that big circle in the playfield is just an alpha hole, no 3D object under it. Way around that would be create the hole if I have to.


Edited by chepas, 27 October 2015 - 09:00 PM.

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#3145 dyopp21

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 08:56 PM

Whahahahahahaha

You guys do know that visual pinball is a fulltime job to, right?!

Well, it settles into some part-time hours after we get past beta phase.  :tongue3:


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#3146 Jafjas

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 08:59 PM

Hello,
Yes I have a Nvidia gtx 760 if I remember correctly.
But my pc at work has also an nvidia card but a quadro and no stutter at all.
The only thing I haven't tested is installing the latest drivers.
I updated them maby two months ago so they are not the latest anymore.
Are you guys up to date on the drivers?
Jasper

Both my 660 and 770 are up to date on drivers.  Just updated them for more testing/tweaking (failing) last night.
 
EDIT:  I just noticed you used the word "stutter."  Are you talking about random stutter, no matter where the ball is on the playfield?  The issue I'm working on is strictly one band of tearing that runs the length of the screen.  I used to have random ball stutter on both systems as well, but fixed it by turning off all FXAA and ambient occlusion.  

Yeah, less time for Facebook and Amazon

So I'm not the only one?  Whew!

Oops sorry, I was talking about the tearing not stutter.
Stutter was another problem I had (not anymore) that drove me totally crazy.
Sometimes it still messes with my mind hehehe

#3147 toxie

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 09:02 PM

In a bad way :) but I doubt it's too trivial, we may have been here before.

 

https://www.dropbox..../holes.jpg?dl=0

 

Static render fixed the drop targets (should've already been static to my knowledge) but that big circle in the playfield is just an alpha hole, no 3D object under it. Way around that would be create the hole if I have to.

 

Hmmm.. Could you elaborate a bit more what you do there and what you want to achieve? Maybe there is a workaround.



#3148 chepas

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 09:12 PM

Cut holes in playfield with image editor.

Just from doing that, your playfield is normally see through.

 

Seems now It's only working on 3D objects with static render under them. Every hole I have is fine apart from the one with no 3D ornament (the circle)

 

I could workaround that with cylinder object under playfield. I do have a visible VP wall under playfield which doesn't show now due to this , but the cyclinder would get rid of that too.


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VPX - RSS Updates ---- blog.flippingflips.xyz/en/ -- Visual Pinball No.1 (2021) . Est.2000


#3149 dyopp21

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 09:45 PM

Ok boys and girls, I'm cautiously optimistic I have found the issue with the tearing problem.

Before I left work I did one more Google search for tearing in Windows, and it took me to an obscure article concerning Vsync on newer GFX cards and turning off Aero in Win7 and later, and that it can cause some strange issues. Well I realized I never turned Aero off on my laptop but I've ALWAYS switched my pins to Windows classic desktop.

As soon as I got home I turned Aero back on and played for 10 or so minutes. I saw no screen tearing at all. Then I got brave and also turned on extreme FXAA and ambient occlusion in VPX (which caused random stutter in the past as noted above), and to my utter delight, the ball still moved smoother than John Travolta on a dance floor.

I'm not sure if this is the cause of anyone else's issue, but it may be worth investigating on your end.


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Edited by dyopp21, 27 October 2015 - 09:48 PM.

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#3150 gStAv

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 09:50 PM

the ball still moved smoother than John Travolta on a dance floor.

 

haha! *lol* Very interesting find though! Gotta try this as I struggled with sweetFX/ReShade lately.

So turn Aero on and boogie!? :D Gotta try this asap  :lusty:


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#3151 toxie

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 09:54 PM

Interesting! I always thought that its exactly the opposite, but maybe nowadays Aero is the way to go as it has the most support from drivers,etc.



#3152 chepas

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 09:55 PM

 

In a bad way :) but I doubt it's too trivial, we may have been here before.

 

https://www.dropbox..../holes.jpg?dl=0

 

Static render fixed the drop targets (should've already been static to my knowledge) but that big circle in the playfield is just an alpha hole, no 3D object under it. Way around that would be create the hole if I have to.

 

Hmmm.. Could you elaborate a bit more what you do there and what you want to achieve? Maybe there is a workaround.

 

 

Tested a bit more and this doesn't happen in the 2260. It's cutting a hole in a playfield and you can clearly see the backdrop through it, but some objects are not visible under it.

 

I tested with a cylinder and that was ok with static render. A model goes into this cylinder from above and is not static, disappears as it goes under the table.


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#3153 toxie

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 09:57 PM

Cut holes in playfield with image editor.

Just from doing that, your playfield is normally see through.

 

Seems now It's only working on 3D objects with static render under them. Every hole I have is fine apart from the one with no 3D ornament (the circle)

 

I could workaround that with cylinder object under playfield. I do have a visible VP wall under playfield which doesn't show now due to this , but the cyclinder would get rid of that too.

 

i still do not 100% get it. so you use an image with alpha channel on the actual playfield, to make some stuff visible that is below the playfield?

if thats the case, i didn't consider it so far, but this should be fixable i hope.



#3154 chepas

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:04 PM

 

Cut holes in playfield with image editor.

Just from doing that, your playfield is normally see through.

 

Seems now It's only working on 3D objects with static render under them. Every hole I have is fine apart from the one with no 3D ornament (the circle)

 

I could workaround that with cylinder object under playfield. I do have a visible VP wall under playfield which doesn't show now due to this , but the cyclinder would get rid of that too.

 

i still do not 100% get it. so you use an image with alpha channel on the actual playfield, to make some stuff visible that is below the playfield?

if thats the case, i didn't consider it so far, but this should be fixable i hope.

 

 

Yes.

 

But now if it's not set to static, then it will disappear underneath it.


Bump maps are the new auto-tune :BDH:
VPX - RSS Updates ---- blog.flippingflips.xyz/en/ -- Visual Pinball No.1 (2021) . Est.2000


#3155 dyopp21

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:07 PM

Interesting! I always thought that its exactly the opposite, but maybe nowadays Aero is the way to go as it has the most support from drivers,etc.


Same here, Toxie.

Just made the change on my second machine and same result, although on the 660 ambient occlusion still caused some weird stutter, but I can't tell a difference with it off/on anyway so I just turned it off. Ball is rocking the playfield smoooooth and jammin' my retinas hot!


Ok, I'm ready now. Bring on the VPX revolution! Where my table authors at?


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#3156 vampirolatino2

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:23 PM

Ohhhhh, that's why I was like... Why are they having problems and in this new PC I'm not? I have not touched Windows in any form ... so it's all stock configurations all around. I do see that I read a threat tittle about Aero and windows 10 having them on was the key. But it was about stutter, not vsync. So it have to do for anything visual related.

 

And thinking about my vsync problems in the past I DO have aero off because it was my mame arcade machine.

 

F yeah!! Thank god you guys now can play flawlessly. Yeah!!! :D



#3157 Shockman

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:29 PM

My maze lights (mmpac) is not working at all with this 2279.

 

I read about changes to the .vbs package on the page before so installed everything in the beta download, so I don't know if the problem is the program or a support file. If the program, i don't know if it's an issue you gota fix, or a structure change I have to deal with.

 

Plays butter smooth though, on my off the shelve HP

 

I think VPX may be my favorite program of all time. Well being that VP was my previous fav. I'm sure it is.



#3158 jimmyfingers

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:31 PM

The issue first showed in the post / video / link that you made dyopp21 (http://www.vpforums....ing#entry203203) was a somewhat different problem than flipper tearing as it was more confined to the flasher overhang and not as random as flipper tearing. It does look like what ball stutter could look like in slow motion or a "morphing" for other graphic drawing anomalies. However, you are right that flipper tearing and this ball issue, whether exactly the same as flipper tearing or not, can be fixed by allowing Aero / not disabling Desktop Composition on the VP executable. This is why I started to use Windows 7 a long time ago because Windows XP does not have this feature.  I wrote about this aspect several times in different topics over the last few years - you didn't by chance try searching on "flipper tearing" and did you ;)

 

I know this started with concerns for VPX and that historical posts may not have seem relevant but as the discussion got more into VP 9x and 9PhysMOD that would have yielded you the same result in general at least about the specific flipper tearing.  This is a link to one of the times I raised the topic and the resolution and was back from VP9x before any PhysMOD or VPX which meant for any video syncing option to work you had to use Aero / DWM because the internal syncing options still tied to physics frame rate and would cause problems with physics and odd flipper shots if utilized alone:

 

http://www.vpforums....ing#entry203203

 

Now, the thing that's changed is that since VP9 PhysMOD and a working vsync option, the need for having to allow Aero to remain on / not Disable Desktop Composition should have been eliminated in theory as the screen syncing capability of DWM / Aero / Desktop Composition should not have been required with software based vsync if functioning fully.  However, from the more recent testing I've done, no method of disabling Desktop Composition with any combination of VP vsync or other parameters can yield a stutter-free result.  There are a number of inputs I would have that may or may not be relevant on this issue and too much to get into here / at the moment but I would like to discuss the topic still further for a couple reasons.  I've been too busy with other aspects of VPX testing / QA to dive more in or raise the somewhat difficult to explain nuances of the issue yet with fuzzel or Toxie (I do have a test table and some setup specifics that may help make it viewable and easier to troubleshoot and I hope to continue with them in this regard).  One thing seems to be that the non true full screen could have a bearing on the change in behaviour or inability to use the software based vsync on it's own.  Also, the variety of results with different video settings just seem to be about the more or less demanding the options the quicker or easier the problem is produced.  I've seen test screens of 640x480 without the issue but I'm killing the FPS if I were to disable the sync and the massive margin for operation between what can be drawn and what is seems to play a role at times as well and make troubleshooting difficult and misleading.

 

Lastly and most importantly, the reason that it is desirable to get actual syncing and stutter free working without allowing Desktop Composition / Aero is that there is a noticeable improvement in flipper lag and responsiveness for shot timing.  This has been quite useful with the somewhat weaker backhand / close to base flipper shots that have been a slight issue with PhysMOD or VPX physics especially if trying to keep the flippers power reasonable and also utilize the coil-up for more realistic flipper behaviour (in general / in other regards).

 

So at this point, there's a choice for everyone, use Aero / DWM / Desktop Composition and sacrifice some input lag but have totally smooth play or have faster flipper response / more precise shooting but some degree of tearing and / or ball stutter (the FPS between the two options nowadays is essentially equal on the systems I've tested so not really part of the decision).  The best result for the least amount of moments of ball stutter with Desktop Composition / Aero disabled is by setting the FPS to your screen refresh rate manually (I've used 60 and 120 as I have a 120 hz screen for my mini / HV pincab).  If trying to use the "1" to allow vsync but with Desktop Composition disabled, you will get terrible stutter and when trying to look at the FPS it seems that what it reads out is a likely cause why as it's struggling at frame rates much less than what the monitor is at (28 - low 30s and such for a regular monitor and 80s - 90s for 120).  Basically, it is not syncing in that mode.  Like I say though, setting a fixed rate does not solve the problem and it will look pretty good and smooth but there will be moments and still areas that seem on the screen to be consistent where the ball morphs / skips / stretches.

 

Sorry for the long post but this issue and all the nuances around it make it difficult to provide anything meaningful without the allowance of verbosity.  

 

EDIT: One thing to correct is that the odd FPS numbers in the 2nd last paragraph above when vsync is used / set to 1 within VP was not necessarily when using standard resolutions or refresh rates and is not as simple to reproduce at 1080p at 60z as with trying 1024x768 at 75 or a 1440p resolution then trying with Desktop Composition Disabled and VP vsync set to 1.  There is also a little further complication in that sometimes switching resolutions / refresh rates and Windows and VP seem to get out of sync (I think I've seen Windows itself get out of sync though as well judging by the mouse pointer) and this complicates again the scenario.  However, a fresh reboot normally solves this for using Aero / Desktop Composition but does not if trying say 1440p or 1080p / 720p at 120hz and the built-in vsync


Edited by jimmyfingers, 27 October 2015 - 11:49 PM.


#3159 toxie

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:31 PM

 

Yes.

 

But now if it's not set to static, then it will disappear underneath it.

 

 

okay, fix is in the making..

 

EDIT: @shockman: this should also fix this issue, i guess..


Edited by toxie, 27 October 2015 - 10:33 PM.


#3160 dyopp21

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:44 PM

The issue first showed in the post / video / link that you made dyopp21 (http://www.vpforums....ing#entry203203) was a somewhat different problem than flipper tearing as it was more confined to the flasher overhang and not as random as flipper tearing. It does look like what ball stutter could look like in slow motion or a "morphing" for other graphic drawing anomalies. However, you are right that flipper tearing and this ball issue, whether exactly the same as flipper tearing or not, can be fixed by allowing Aero / not disabling Desktop Composition on the VP executable. This is why I started to use Windows 7 a long time ago because Windows XP does not have this feature.  I wrote about this aspect several times in different topics over the last few years - you didn't by chance try searching on "flipper tearing" and did you ;)

 

I know this started with concerns for VPX and that historical posts may not have seem relevant but as the discussion got more into VP 9x and 9PhysMOD that would have yielded you the same result in general at least about the specific flipper tearing.  This is a link to one of the times I raised the topic and the resolution and was back from VP9x before any PhysMOD or VPX which meant for any video syncing option to work you had to use Aero / DWM because the internal syncing options still tied to physics frame rate and would cause problems with physics and odd flipper shots if utilized alone:

 

http://www.vpforums....ing#entry203203

 

Now, the thing that's changed is that since VP9 PhysMOD and a working vsync option, the need for having to allow Aero to remain on / not Disable Desktop Composition should have been eliminated in theory as the screen syncing capability of DWM / Aero / Desktop Composition should not have been required with software based vsync if functioning fully.  However, from the more recent testing I've done, no method of disabling Desktop Composition with any combination of VP vsync or other parameters can yield a stutter-free result.  There are a number of inputs I would have that may or may not be relevant on this issue and too much to get into here / at the moment but I would like to discuss the topic still further for a couple reasons.  I've been too busy with other aspects of VPX testing / QA to dive more in or raise the somewhat difficult to explain nuances of the issue yet with fuzzel or Toxie (I do have a test table and some setup specifics that may help make it viewable and easier to troubleshoot and I hope to continue with them in this regard).  One thing seems to be that the non true full screen could have a bearing on the change in behaviour or inability to use the software based vsync on it's own.  Also, the variety of results with different video settings just seem to be about the more or less demanding the options the quicker or easier the problem is produced.  I've seen test screens of 640x480 without the issue but I'm killing the FPS if I were to disable the sync and the massive margin for operation between what can be drawn and what is seems to play a role at times as well and make troubleshooting difficult and misleading.

 

Lastly and most importantly, the reason that it is desirable to get actual syncing and stutter free working without allowing Desktop Composition / Aero is that there is a noticeable improvement in flipper lag and responsiveness for shot timing.  This has been quite useful with the somewhat weaker backhand / close to base flipper shots that have been a slight issue with PhysMOD or VPX physics especially if trying to keep the flippers power reasonable and also utilize the coil-up for more realistic flipper behaviour (in general / in other regards).

 

So at this point, there's a choice for everyone, use Aero / DWM / Desktop Composition and sacrifice some input lag but have totally smooth play or have faster flipper response / more precise shooting but some degree of tearing and / or ball stutter (the FPS between the two options nowadays is essentially equal on the systems I've tested so not really part of the decision).  The best result for the least amount of moments of ball stutter with Desktop Composition / Aero disabled is by setting the FPS to your screen refresh rate manually (I've used 60 and 120 as I have a 120 hz screen for my mini / HV pincab).  If trying to use the "1" to allow vsync but with Desktop Composition disabled, you will get terrible stutter and when trying to look at the FPS it seems that what it reads out is a likely cause why as it's struggling at frame rates much less than what the monitor is at (28 - low 30s and such for a regular monitor and 80s - 90s for 120).  Basically, it is not syncing in that mode.  Like I say though, setting a fixed rate does not solve the problem and it will look pretty good and smooth but there will be moments and still areas that seem on the screen to be consistent where the ball morphs / skips / stretches.

 

Sorry for the long post but this issue and all the nuances around it make it difficult to provide anything meaningful without the allowance of verbosity.  

I'll have to play a lot of pinball tonight to see if I can live with the flipper lag, because I certainly can't live with the screen tearing.  At least not tearing of the ball.  The flippers never really bothered me but the ball caught my eye every single time it ripped in two.  Every. Single. Time.


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