3889 replies to this topic

[toxie]

good catch.. this is actually not (only) related to the HDR stuff changes, but a potential bug i fixed..

but seems like i was too restrictive, so i just made this a bit less paranoid, which brings back the old behavior in this case..

[hauntfreaks]

yes, all this naming for this is completely confusing anyhow, there is no real standard unfortunately in the rendering community so far.  :/

(i personally would vote for HDR environment lighting or emission)

 

 

btw: could you guys please test FS vs DT lighting again? i changed the behavior (at least) for the FS setup, and i -think- it should now roughly match up between FS and DT, but then again i only tested it sparsely.

(context: unfortunately i cannot find the posts anymore, but there were complaints that the lighting behaves differently in DT or FS mode, like being "not rotated along" with the table)

 

ok its clear now... these are not just multi-exposure photos (HDR) but need to be a 360 (HDRI) that makes sense 

[Guus]

HDR is very often "over saturated" and for that reason unnatural looking.

 

Don't get me wrong; it's a nice feature(VP10 is awesome), but HDR should be implemented with care.

[freneticamnesic]

God. I've always loved messing with the lighting in VP10 and seeing what could be done but this is just a whole new beast. I love it. From the link I posted earlier, I've gotten the best results from the Milky Way environment (as Dozer found as well) and I've just been experimenting from there. A lot of them come out a little orange so trying to find one with less of that orangeness has been difficult and so far that's given the best result next to the default environment (in the default table)

The default environment is much brighter so I've stayed away from it for the most part. Lots of great stuff here. I'm excited to see what others can achieve.

 

toxie, lighting still seems a bit different between DT and FS but not extremely. Here's a comparison. Most noticeable on the boat and the ramp below it...

 

 

 

 

[dyopp21]

 

yes, all this naming for this is completely confusing anyhow, there is no real standard unfortunately in the rendering community so far.  :/

(i personally would vote for HDR environment lighting or emission)

 

 

btw: could you guys please test FS vs DT lighting again? i changed the behavior (at least) for the FS setup, and i -think- it should now roughly match up between FS and DT, but then again i only tested it sparsely.

(context: unfortunately i cannot find the posts anymore, but there were complaints that the lighting behaves differently in DT or FS mode, like being "not rotated along" with the table)

 

EDIT: just for clarification I'm playing in FS mode.

 

2044.PNG2217.PNG

 

Not sure if this is part of the HDR environment that has been introduced, but 32assassin and I have been working on a Blackout beta table and I have been playing it in a few different versions.  In an older build (2044, I know, I haven't updated my laptop build in a while!) the insert lights have a nice amount of bloom on them and are plenty bright.  However on the new build (2217) they seem more muted and the circular area where it is lit, vs. not lit is far more distinguishable.   I tried setting the HDR environment to "none" but the lights still seem muted.

 

Also, on the older version the ball movement seems natural but on the new build it does some strange things in the inlanes (goes zipping back up the table) and off the top rubbers ("spins" off them in a lateral and down motion), as well as making some strange lateral movements off the the upper sling rubbers from, I assume, ball spin?

 

Here is a link to the table currently if anyone would like to see the differences in lighting and ball movement in the earlier builds vs. the new build:

https://www.dropbox....a V0.4.vpx?dl=0

 

Admins: hope I'm not putting this in the wrong place.  I'm thinking this is as much an application anomaly as it is a table build issue.  

 

UPDATE:  I corrected the issue with the strange ball movement.  Was not version related as I previously thought.

[toxie]

okay, cool, then with the next build you should also get the old light behavior back.

 

@Fren: Good to hear. The lighting cannot be -exactly- the same for DT and FS, as of course all glossy and perfect reflections -need- to look different, due to other factors like inclination, field of view and layback. But if one uses only the base color and no metal materials, then it should almost match 100% (i hope ).

HDR is very often "over saturated" and for that reason unnatural looking.

 

Don't get me wrong; it's a nice feature(VP10 is awesome), but HDR should be implemented with care.

 

I guess you're mixing up two things there (and i cannot blame you there, all the terminology is super-fuzzy):

 

There are HDR images that just describe the much larger range of values that an image can take (so not limited to 8bit per RGB-channel, like common, but for example 16 or 32bit), and this is what VP can now use to capture a lighting situation like in 'real life'.

 

Then there is HDR postprocessing from (for example 10bit or 12bit) RAW camera files. There, one can usually see exactly what you describe, as you take this larger range of values and compress it back into 8bit, with the use of artistic filters. But this is not what the VP feature is about.

[Dozer316]

Hello friends, found some more time today to keep going on this.   I won't keep cluttering up this thread with screen shots but wanted to give an example of the Milky Way map pulled back a bit level wise with some GI added.   The bottom left yellow flasher is hard on in this shot to show what it looks like when lit as is the neon tube.   When the game is being played, this should be broken up a bit as most things flash at different times.

 

Thanks a heap Toxie and Fuzzel, this software just keeps getting better and better.

 

 

One more with the ringmaster up.

 

Edited by Dozer316, 13 October 2015 - 08:58 AM.

[fuzzel]

"and there will be light..." nice nice nice

[blashyrk]

Vp10 is shaping up real nice , great work devs and holy cow that looks awesome dozer

Edited by blashyrk, 13 October 2015 - 12:21 PM.

[lodger]

Wow. I'm really impressed by all the new stuff...

[Guus]

@Toxie: Thanks for the clear explanation. My reply was posted too fast(I should have gathered more information), I was indeed thinking about HDR-post processing. A great new feature then ! With expanded colour channels the lighting could be more realistic instead of less.

 

@Dozer: AMAZING !

[freezy]

I won't keep cluttering up this thread with screen shots 

 

I can assure you that we all love this kind of cluttering.

[shadowshd]

Just can't wait to taste CV on VPX Dozer316 !!!

 

++

[vampirolatino2]

A lot of good progress in VPX!!

 

I had mine running in Windows 10, but I'm having a few difficulties with how it looks. The right side of the screen (where all the tools and buttons are) it's fixed to a resolution and don't scale to a proper size. The same with options screen and so on. But I'm running it on a crazy resolution of 4K

 

I will post a picture soon.

[Kaan]

Is it possible in the future to have either baked shadows or realtime shadows in vp10? Or light sources that are actually shining on surfaces and lighting them up? (Something like a deferred renderer or direct lightning?) Just curious about the possibilities in the future. So far the jump in graphical fidelity is incredible comprared to vp9.

Edited by Kaan, 13 October 2015 - 07:54 PM.

[cyberpez]

I played around a bit with the new version (2223).  One weird thing I noticed is the lights all seem to have a static intensity.  I raised and lowered it and it didn't seem to change.

 

a bit more testing...  seems to just be lights on the playfield.  I can change the intensity of my GI lights...

 

See screenshot  top row of lights is set to an intensity of 15  Bottom row is set to 75.  GI on left is set to 50, right is 15.

 

I went back and tested in version 2194 and it wasn't like that.  Screenshot does not have an HDR image applied..  but same result when one is.

 

 

 

 

Attached Files

•  lights.jpg   122.24KB   23 downloads

[hauntfreaks]

here my example of using the EEI Feature

I used JP's TOTAN table

I found an HDRI mirrorball *.hdr file

unwrapped it and used it as the environment

first image is stock table no EEI second is with

 

this is an awesome FEATURE!!

[toxie]

I played around a bit with the new version (2223).  One weird thing I noticed is the lights all seem to have a static intensity.  I raised and lowered it and it didn't seem to change.

 

a bit more testing...  seems to just be lights on the playfield.  I can change the intensity of my GI lights...

 

See screenshot  top row of lights is set to an intensity of 15  Bottom row is set to 75.  GI on left is set to 50, right is 15.

 

I went back and tested in version 2194 and it wasn't like that.  Screenshot does not have an HDR image applied..  but same result when one is.

 

 

as mentioned above, i fixed a bug with lights and flashers, but was a bit too restrictive, it should be better with the next build again.

Is it possible in the future to have either baked shadows or realtime shadows in vp10? Or light sources that are actually shining on surfaces and lighting them up? (Something like a deferred renderer or direct lightning?) Just curious about the possibilities in the future. So far the jump in graphical fidelity is incredible comprared to vp9.

 

Its definetly possible, but for this release we decided against it, as we wanted to make sure that performance will still be 'good enough' on most setups that could also handle VP9.9.X previously.

 

But especially the full lighting is on my todo-list, but don't know when and how it will be implemented and exposed exactly. Shadows i don't know for sure, as it would be much more pain to get this fast and also artifact free implemented into the engine.

[fuzzel]

rev2229 is up:

 

- clean up project file and remove old/unused compilation settings
- Fix missing BeginScene/EndScene in CheckAndUpdateRegions()
- be less restrictive with the overlay blend when having HDR input
- do not allow hdr textures for ball decal
 

[hauntfreaks]

getting something odd... in 2229 seems the PF and plastics are blurred but the primitives are sharp

 

top image is 2223 bottom 2229