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Pinscape Controller software V2

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#201 akiles50000

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Posted 05 December 2016 - 04:03 PM

I have a problem with my KL25Z board with this configuration worked perfectly like you can see in this video:

 

16byper.jpg

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=IvFKEmUARpw

 

But after of a time moves the ball fine when I hit the cabinet but never appears the message of Warning and never gives Tilt.

Does anyone has a version prepared to KL25Z board with Vpinball 9.92 to test because I,m using a old version  this:

 

vpinball-physmod5-accelmod-8-20-2014

 

Maybe I need a new version fixed of VP9,92 and VP10 to use with the KL25Z board.


Edited by akiles50000, 05 December 2016 - 04:04 PM.


#202 mjr

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Posted 05 December 2016 - 07:33 PM

I assume you don't have a real tilt bob and want VP to use its internal "virtual" tilt bob instead.

 

That feature is controlled with the "Tilt Sensitivity" settings in the keys dialog.  Try checking the box for Tilt Sensitivity and setting the number in the box next to it to 1000.  That's the maximum sensitivity, so it should generate tilts very easily at that level.  Probably TOO easily, but try that first to see if you can get it working at all.  If so, you can experiment with lower numbers until you find a setting that's sensitive enough but not so sensitive it tilts at the slightest vibration.



#203 akiles50000

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Posted 05 December 2016 - 08:49 PM

Yes Mjr I haven,t a real tilt,and I want that VP uses the internal virtual tilt

Like you can see in the video ago time worked perfectly appearing the message Warning in the dmd and giving Tilt but after of some months when I switch on the virtual cabinet back I quit working,it moves the ball perfeclty when I hit but never give Tilt.

 

Tomorrow I,ll test checking the box of Tilt Sensibility and I,ll configurate to 1000

 

BTW can you upload a version fixed for VP 992? the version that I use it,s the 991 very old.

 

Thanks. 


Edited by akiles50000, 05 December 2016 - 08:52 PM.


#204 mjr

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 03:41 AM

BTW can you upload a version fixed for VP 992? the version that I use it,s the 991 very old.

 

No need - you should use the latest official VP 9.  It has all of my mods.



#205 akiles50000

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 09:40 AM

Well today I have done a lot of tests and nothing these:

 

1º-I have tested ckecking the option Tilt Sensibility to 1000 and nothing does the same only it moves the ball but not the table when I hit the cabinet.

2º-After I have tested with other KL25Z board because I bought two and nothing does the same both.

3º-Instead If I press for example the right buttom of nudge it moves the table a bit perfectly and gives tilt after of two o three hits tilt but using KL25Z board never gives tilt.

 

I don,t understand because worked a time fine and now doesn,t work.



#206 mjr

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 08:59 PM

Well today I have done a lot of tests and nothing these:

 

1º-I have tested ckecking the option Tilt Sensibility to 1000 and nothing does the same only it moves the ball but not the table when I hit the cabinet.

2º-After I have tested with other KL25Z board because I bought two and nothing does the same both.

3º-Instead If I press for example the right buttom of nudge it moves the table a bit perfectly and gives tilt after of two o three hits tilt but using KL25Z board never gives tilt.

 

I don,t understand because worked a time fine and now doesn,t work.

 

Tilting and nudging in VP is rather complex. I'm not sure there's a good tutorial anywhere on how all of the different pieces work.  I'll try to explain some of the elements, to help you understand the nuances of the effects you're seeing.

 

First, two definitions, because people use these terms inconsistently.  Nudging is an acceleration input that affects the motion of the ball.  Tilting is triggering the game's tilt switch.  

 

On a real pinball, tilting occurs when you nudge the machine hard enough to make the tilt bob pendulum make electrical contact with the ring surrounding it.  The game's software or hardware detects the electrical contact and triggers the TILT condition (which may result in a tilt penalty or just a warning).

 

On VP, things aren't nearly so simple.  The goal with VP is to act like the real thing, but the actual mechanisms used to accomplish that are very different from the real thing.

 

For historical reasons, VP has two completely separate mechanisms for handling nudging and tilting: keyboard and accelerometer.  This creates a lot of confusion because it's reasonable to think they'd be somehow related, but they're really not.  I can see you're trying to compare their behavior and you're finding it weird that they're so inconsistent.  Well, it's actually normal that they behave so differently, because they're really separate systems without much common ground.  Let's look at how these two systems work so you can see what I mean.

 

Method #1 is keyboard input.  Keyboard input is handled via four keys:  center nudge, left nudge, right nudge, a "bang back".  These are usually assigned to SPACE, Z, /, and T respectively.  

 

What does VP do with these keys?  Essentially nothing, as it turns out.  All it does is read them from the keyboard and send KeyDown events to the table script.  VP doesn't change the ball velocity, send a tilt switch to the ROM, or do anything else at all in response to these keys.  All it does is send KeyDown events to the script.  This means that the handling of these keys is entirely up to the table script, and so varies from table to table.  Most tables use the same core scripts that handle these KeyDown events the same way, which is to first call back into VP to accelerate the ball(s) in the appropriate direction, and to then do some time-based arithmetic to see if there have been too many nudges in too short a time, in which case the script simulates triggering the tilt switch.

 

So the net effect here is that pressing nudge KEYS leads to accelerations on the ball and triggering the TILT condition (or not) according to logic embedded in the table script.

 

Method #2 is accelerometer nudging.  The accelerometer is handled almost the opposite way from keyboard nudging, in that VP does most of the handling itself without getting the scripts involved.  VP reads the amount of acceleration from the accelerometer and directly applies it to the motion of the ball(s) in real time.  Scripts aren't notified of this at all; there are no events for it.  

 

VP also feeds the accelerations into its own internal simulated tilt pendulum.  Scripts aren't involved in the simulated pendulum either, until it actually triggers a tilt.  That's what the "TILT SENSITIVITY" settings in the keyboard prefs dialog are all about.  The sensitivity number basically determines how far the simulated pendulum can swing before it triggers a tilt event.  Higher numbers = more sensitive = shorter pendulum excursions trigger tilt.  When a pendulum tilt event occurs, it's finally time to get the table scripts involved.  At this point, VP fires a KeyDown event for the "center nudge" key (the one that's usually assigned to SPACE).

 

Now you're back into those same KeyDown table scripts that were designed to handle keyboard nudging.  All table scripts handle the virtual pendulum nudge key event exactly the same way they handle an actual keyboard SPACE key press, because they literally can't tell the difference between the two.  Tables using the default core scripts will thus do what I described above: they'll accelerate the ball, do some timer arithmetic to see if fake nudges have been coming too quickly, and trigger a tilt switch closure if so.

 

The important thing in this case to realize is that the table scripts aren't involved in accelerometer nudging, but they do take over for accelerometer tilting.  VP can't actually trigger a tilt per se; it can only fire the "center nudge" key event, and it's up to the table script to finish the job and generate the actual tilt switch signal.

 

Given that you can't get tables to tilt with the accelerometer, and assuming that nudging is working correctly for you (I think you said earlier that was the case), the problem has to be one of two things:

 

(1)  the VP virtual tilt bob is never detecting a tilt and thus never firing a "center nudge" key event to the table script

 

(2)  table scripts aren't triggering a TILT condition in response to the "center nudge" key

 

Here's something you can try to determine which it is.  

 

Fire up the VP editor.  Create a new table.  Select menu Edit -> Script.  Search for the part of the script that looks like this:

 

    If keycode = CenterTiltKey Then
        Nudge 0, 2
    End If
 
Replace the line that says Nudge 0,2 with this:
 
    MsgBox "Center nudge key"
 
Run the table.  Nudge excessively.  If you can eventually get the message box window to pop up, the problem is (2) above.  If not, the problem is (1) above.

Edited by mjr, 06 December 2016 - 09:52 PM.


#207 akiles50000

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:38 AM

Thanks Mjr to the explanation I,ll test you say me and I,ll say something soon.



#208 akiles50000

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 09:34 AM

Hi Mjr I have done this test:

 

Fire up the VP editor.  Create a new table.  Select menu Edit -> Script.  Search for the part of the script that looks like this:

 

    If keycode = CenterTiltKey Then
        Nudge 0, 2
    End If
 
Replace the line that says Nudge 0,2 with this:
 
    MsgBox "Center nudge key"

 

 

And never appears the messagebox window hitting strong the cabinet.

 

Then which would be the solution to the problem 1?



#209 mjr

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 02:55 AM

Hi Mjr I have done this test:

 

Fire up the VP editor.  Create a new table.  Select menu Edit -> Script.  Search for the part of the script that looks like this:

 

    If keycode = CenterTiltKey Then
        Nudge 0, 2
    End If
 
Replace the line that says Nudge 0,2 with this:
 
    MsgBox "Center nudge key"

 

 

And never appears the messagebox window hitting strong the cabinet.

 

Then which would be the solution to the problem 1?

 

Apparently so.

 

I'm not sure how to go about solving this other than getting out the C++ debugger and looking at plumb_update() in plumb.cpp to see why it's never firing the event.  That's not a very convenient approach if you're not set up with the build environment, obviously, so that might not be worth your while.  You mentioned earlier that you were on a really old version of VP, so maybe you should try getting the latest and see if that helps.



#210 akiles50000

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 11:54 AM

Mjr I have tested some old versions and nothing never appears the message of Warning no gives Tilt only it moves the ball perfectly.

After of to a lot of tests I leave it as impossible.

 

I think to there is to fix the source code of Vpinball to that recognize with it hits the cabinet to recognizes like tilt when it hit two o three times I don,t know if Fuzzel or any other person can do that modification in Vpinball.


Edited by akiles50000, 08 December 2016 - 11:58 AM.


#211 akiles50000

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 02:28 PM

Fuzzel I want to the impulse sensor of  the KL25Z board detect the tilt with the VPinball program when I hit the cabinet some times.

That can be done modifying the Vpinball source code or not?



#212 sliderpoint

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 03:45 PM

Hey MJR, I apologize as I have not read through this entire thread, however I have a problem as it relates to the ball launch functions. They work great for normal ball launch on games that have a button (ie: MM, X-files, Rocky and Bullwinkle, etc). However some of those games have features where you are supposed to hit the launch button multiple times later during play. This is the part that doesn't work, it doesn't seem to register at all.

I'm guessing this is possibly B2S or DOF related, but not sure.

Some games that do this that I know of are RaB, Jurrasic Park and Star Trek TNG (I think).

Any ideas?

Thanks
-Mike

#213 fuzzel

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 04:55 PM

Fuzzel I want to the impulse sensor of  the KL25Z board detect the tilt with the VPinball program when I hit the cabinet some times.

That can be done modifying the Vpinball source code or not?

I don't know the KL25Z board so I can't say very much about that. It sounds like this board doesn't support DirectInput or isn't recognized by Windows as a game controller with accelerometer. The nudging and the effect on the ball comes from DirectIntput events VP catches. If you for example use an old Sidewinder joypad and you move the pad left/right the movement is converted to a value that shows how fast the position on the X axis has changed. The same goes for the Y axis. If this velocity value is higher than the tilt sensitivity VP will fire the tilt event.

Do you mean with KL25Z this board https://developer.mb...latforms/KL25Z/ ? And if that's the board do you use the Pinscape controller or is it a selfbuild board?



#214 mjr

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 05:19 PM

Mjr I have tested some old versions and nothing never appears the message of Warning no gives Tilt only it moves the ball perfectly.

After of to a lot of tests I leave it as impossible.

 

I think to there is to fix the source code of Vpinball to that recognize with it hits the cabinet to recognizes like tilt when it hit two o three times I don,t know if Fuzzel or any other person can do that modification in Vpinball.

 

As I explained above (post #206 - see the part about "Method #2, accelerometer nudging"), VP does have this ability, via its virtual tilt bob.  But evidently it's not working for you.  I wish I knew why, but unfortunately it's kind of a black box in VP; there are no tools for debugging it on other people's machines.  You'd have to get out the C++ debugger and see why it's not triggering.  If you have Visual Studio installed, I can help guide you through that, but short of that I'm not sure how to debug it for you.

 

You might consider bypassing this whole problem by getting a real tilt bob.  That's the solution I prefer anyway, because I don't think VP's virtual tilt bob is a very good substitute, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect it to be, because the motion of a real cabinet is pretty complex.  A real tilt bob works great in conjunction with an accelerometer - the combination is about as close to the way a real machine works as you can get.

 

 

I don't know the KL25Z board so I can't say very much about that. It sounds like this board doesn't support DirectInput or isn't recognized by Windows as a game controller with accelerometer.

 

Fuzzel - he's using the Pinscape software, so yes, it's recognized as a joystick and yes, he has it working properly with nudging.  His problem seems to be that he can't get the virtual plumb function to trigger a tilt.  I had him try a simple test (see post #206 above - it's a long post, so just look at the very last part) to determine whether the problem is that plumb_update() is never firing a center-tilt key event, or that the event is fired but his table scripts are ignoring it.  It appears to be that plumb_update() is never firing the event.  The plumb mechanism is a black box, so I can't think of much else he can try to debug it.



#215 mjr

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 05:41 PM

Hey MJR, I apologize as I have not read through this entire thread, however I have a problem as it relates to the ball launch functions. They work great for normal ball launch on games that have a button (ie: MM, X-files, Rocky and Bullwinkle, etc). However some of those games have features where you are supposed to hit the launch button multiple times later during play. This is the part that doesn't work, it doesn't seem to register at all.

I'm guessing this is possibly B2S or DOF related, but not sure.

Some games that do this that I know of are RaB, Jurrasic Park and Star Trek TNG (I think).

Any ideas?

 

You're talking about the ZB Launch Ball function, I assume?

 

If it's working some of the time but not all of the time for a given table, the problem might be the DOF configuration for the table.  DOF turns the plunger launch feature on and off via the ZB Launch Ball output, so if it's not turning on every time it should be, there might be a condition missing in the DOF table setup.  Try this: pick one of the tables you're having problems with.  Go to the DOF config tool and bring up the settings for that table.  In the right-hand column, look for the field labeled ZB Launch Ball.  It'll probably say something like "W16" or "S32".  Change whatever it says to simply ON.  Save, generate the new config, quit VP/PBX/any other programs, download and install the .ini files.  Try the updated table now and see if that helps.  If so, you can probably fix any other affected tables by also changing their ZB Launch Ball settings to ON.



#216 sliderpoint

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 06:40 PM

 

Hey MJR, I apologize as I have not read through this entire thread, however I have a problem as it relates to the ball launch functions. They work great for normal ball launch on games that have a button (ie: MM, X-files, Rocky and Bullwinkle, etc). However some of those games have features where you are supposed to hit the launch button multiple times later during play. This is the part that doesn't work, it doesn't seem to register at all.

I'm guessing this is possibly B2S or DOF related, but not sure.

Some games that do this that I know of are RaB, Jurrasic Park and Star Trek TNG (I think).

Any ideas?

 

You're talking about the ZB Launch Ball function, I assume?

 

If it's working some of the time but not all of the time for a given table, the problem might be the DOF configuration for the table.  DOF turns the plunger launch feature on and off via the ZB Launch Ball output, so if it's not turning on every time it should be, there might be a condition missing in the DOF table setup.  Try this: pick one of the tables you're having problems with.  Go to the DOF config tool and bring up the settings for that table.  In the right-hand column, look for the field labeled ZB Launch Ball.  It'll probably say something like "W16" or "S32".  Change whatever it says to simply ON.  Save, generate the new config, quit VP/PBX/any other programs, download and install the .ini files.  Try the updated table now and see if that helps.  If so, you can probably fix any other affected tables by also changing their ZB Launch Ball settings to ON.

 

 

As usual you nailed it.   is the ZB ball launch used anywhere else?  Any idea why it would not just be set to ON for all tables?

 

-Mike



#217 fuzzel

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 06:42 PM

Mjr I have tested some old versions and nothing never appears the message of Warning no gives Tilt only it moves the ball perfectly.
After of to a lot of tests I leave it as impossible.
 
I think to there is to fix the source code of Vpinball to that recognize with it hits the cabinet to recognizes like tilt when it hit two o three times I don,t know if Fuzzel or any other person can do that modification in Vpinball.

 
As I explained above (post #206 - see the part about "Method #2, accelerometer nudging"), VP does have this ability, via its virtual tilt bob.  But evidently it's not working for you.  I wish I knew why, but unfortunately it's kind of a black box in VP; there are no tools for debugging it on other people's machines.  You'd have to get out the C++ debugger and see why it's not triggering.  If you have Visual Studio installed, I can help guide you through that, but short of that I'm not sure how to debug it for you.
 
You might consider bypassing this whole problem by getting a real tilt bob.  That's the solution I prefer anyway, because I don't think VP's virtual tilt bob is a very good substitute, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect it to be, because the motion of a real cabinet is pretty complex.  A real tilt bob works great in conjunction with an accelerometer - the combination is about as close to the way a real machine works as you can get.
 
 

I don't know the KL25Z board so I can't say very much about that. It sounds like this board doesn't support DirectInput or isn't recognized by Windows as a game controller with accelerometer.

 
Fuzzel - he's using the Pinscape software, so yes, it's recognized as a joystick and yes, he has it working properly with nudging.  His problem seems to be that he can't get the virtual plumb function to trigger a tilt.  I had him try a simple test (see post #206 above - it's a long post, so just look at the very last part) to determine whether the problem is that plumb_update() is never firing a center-tilt key event, or that the event is fired but his table scripts are ignoring it.  It appears to be that plumb_update() is never firing the event.  The plumb mechanism is a black box, so I can't think of much else he can try to debug it.
Hmm why not adding the nudge values to the debug output like all the other fps and physic values. Then you get at least some feedback what values VP sees.

#218 akiles50000

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 06:47 PM

Thanks Fuzzel to the explication.

 

Mjr I going to make other test this:

 

I going to create other new table and change these lines:

 

If keycode = RightTiltKey Then
Nudge 270, 2
End If
 
to these :
 
If keycode = RightTiltKey Then
MsgBox "Right nudge key"
End If
 
maybe appears the messagebox when I hit some times the cabinet I.ll test tomorrow.

Edited by akiles50000, 08 December 2016 - 06:50 PM.


#219 mjr

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 07:58 PM

 

[About ZB Launch]

 

If it's working some of the time but not all of the time for a given table, the problem might be the DOF configuration for the table.  DOF turns the plunger launch feature on and off via the ZB Launch Ball output, so if it's not turning on every time it should be, there might be a condition missing in the DOF table setup.  Try this: pick one of the tables you're having problems with.  Go to the DOF config tool and bring up the settings for that table.  In the right-hand column, look for the field labeled ZB Launch Ball.  It'll probably say something like "W16" or "S32".  Change whatever it says to simply ON.  Save, generate the new config, quit VP/PBX/any other programs, download and install the .ini files.  Try the updated table now and see if that helps.  If so, you can probably fix any other affected tables by also changing their ZB Launch Ball settings to ON.

 

 

As usual you nailed it.   is the ZB ball launch used anywhere else?  Any idea why it would not just be set to ON for all tables?

 

I'm not sure why Arngrim didn't just set it to ON across the board in the plunger-less tables.  My guess is that it's historical rather than intentional.  I think he probably set up the ZB Launch Ball values by copying the regular Launch Ball button light settings.  For the regular Launch Ball light, it makes sense to only turn on the light when there's a ball in the chute, since it's supposed to be helpful guidance for the player that you should push the button.  For the ZB Launch Ball field, on the other hand, there's no visible feedback, so it should be okay to leave it on unconditionally the whole time a plunger-less table is loaded.  It would leave the plunger in "button mode" all the time for those tables, meaning you can't use the "mechanical" mode as long as the table is loaded, but you wouldn't care if the table doesn't have a plunger to start with.  And you certainly do notice the lack of ZB Launch capability when there's a ball in the chute and you can't get the button to work.  So on the whole I think a constant ON setting for plunger-less tables is the way to go.

 

But note that you don't want it ON for *all* tables.  You only want it on for plunger-less tables, not for tables with regular plungers.  If you turned it on for plunger tables, it would disable the mech plunger and turn it into a launch button only, which wouldn't be good.  So the ZB Launch Ball output does need to be set per table, but I think in general it should be either simply ON if the table has a plunger-less launcher, and OFF if the table has a regular plunger.


Mjr I going to make other test this:

 

I going to create other new table and change these lines:

 

If keycode = RightTiltKey Then
Nudge 270, 2
End If
 
to these :
 
If keycode = RightTiltKey Then
MsgBox "Right nudge key"
End If
 
maybe appears the messagebox when I hit some times the cabinet I.ll test tomorrow.

 

I'm afraid that definitely won't do anything.  The VP virtual tilt bob only (virtually) presses the CenterTiltKey.  It has nothing to do with the direction of the nudging; it's always the same key no matter which direction you're going.  You might want to re-read the part in post #206 about "Method #2, accelerometer nudging" if you're unclear on why the CenterTiltKey is the only one that you should be looking at.

 

 

Hmm why not adding the nudge values to the debug output like all the other fps and physic values. Then you get at least some feedback what values VP sees.

 

Yeah, that might be helpful for situations like this.  


Edited by mjr, 08 December 2016 - 10:32 PM.


#220 MnHotRod

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 12:03 AM

Decided to take the plunge today and try getting a Freescale board working on my purchased cab. I learned the hard way what BigBoss points out here. With everything disabled via PinscapeConfig on the board, and a USB Identification setting of LedWiz Unit 1, VP would error out on the script while trying to launch a VPX table (Congo). VP would crash with every other Usb Indentification except the last one Pinscape. With the USB Identification set to Pinscape, everything runs fine. I'm not sure if Congo is a DOF table, maybe I got lucky choosing this table as my start point.

 

If you are like me, with a Vertigo cab, select Pinscape as your USB Identification and disable all functions except "joystick" for nudging.

 

Hey if anyone is having that DOF crash but isn't using the pinscape for ledwiz functions you can solve the problem very easily by just disabling the pinscape ledwiz id entirely. Just load the config software and change the ledwiz ID to "pinscape" right by custom.  Now it can create 2 USB devices one for keyboard and one for joystick and neither will have an ledwiz device ID so it won't cause DOF2 to crash.







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