235 replies to this topic

[blashyrk]

Great physics ClarkKent i've been experimenting with the vpx physics and I think lowering the gravity below 1 gives more realistic behavior.

[ClarkKent]

Great physics ClarkKent i've been experimenting with the vpx physics and I think lowering the gravity below 1 gives more realistic behavior.

But just slightly - we certainly live on Earth and not Moon...

[blashyrk]

Please share if you reworked the physics on other tables too

[ClarkKent]

I do not adjust that many tables. Most times I ask the authors to adjust the settings but some are very resistant to my requests. On the other side most players of the virtual pinball tables seem to like the easier game play rather than realistic behavior.

Next week I'm gonna play the Medieval Madness Remake pinball machine for the first time! Let's see if it plays the same as the good old Williams game!

Edited by ClarkKent, 15 February 2016 - 07:18 PM.

[DonRobby]

Your 100% right in it being a matter of taste whatever you prefer.

But still if this is what you compare it with then 6,5 is still too low so that also means the gravity maybe a bit too high.

To me the gravity is a little bit too close towards the default setting wich makes the ball a bit too heavy for my taste.

And the table friction set this high means it 6% damaged.

Don't go over 0.02 then it plays like having a new piece of mylar without it slipping and sliding

I know how to tune physics but then still there are a lot of new issues coming along.

The combo of good settings depends on so much more.

Everything must be balanced out

On Dozer's settings the slope is set too high and the table friction is soo low the ball starts to slip and slide.

That's the only benefit i can make that yours doesn t have so I think you should go down with the gravity and go up with the table slope to reduce the curveball effect to gain more control of the ball

Also when looking at the pop bumpers they certainly are not positioned right.

The top bumper needs to move to the left somewhere around the centre of the right lane.

It should spam bonus multipliers if it hits the top bumper, bounces off in the right lane and then bounces back to the left wich always results in at least 1 bonus multiplier each cycle.

I also believe it needs to fall more often to the left lane, not sure but older machines can become weaker over time so that's a discussion that will always be open unless some technician who knows the machine inside out can confirm otherwise.

I also think sometimes the castle lock doesn t register even when the ball went through the hatch.

And one time I took a shot at the door wich was open but it registered a lock and vice versa when shooting the lock hatch it registered a shot at the open castle door. 

Underneath the catapult I have found a slingshot set at a higher value then the 2 real slingshots have.

I don t think there even is a slingshot on that small rubber post.

This thing makes the ball ricohet like a spazzed cannonball totally out of control.

I also prefer a lower flipper release speed to make a live catch or cradle seperation without me shooting away all balls  out of control and a little less flipper strength max 3000.

And I find the catapult shot having too much resistance on the wire gate. 

The shot is already hard as it is, doesn t need more resistance.

That's all I know for now but still I say join the official development if yo are allowed.

I just want this almost perfect game to become even better now that it is that close.

Yesterday night I finally have beaten the Battle for the Kingdom for the first time on Dozer's version 2.2 after doing some tuning.

[ClarkKent]

Delete the nvram. I think this should solve the weird behavior.

I'll look into your suggestions! Maybe we can find an even better ball behavior.

The bumpers are really not ok, I think this is and inaccuracy, too. It's still on my todo list...

Edited by ClarkKent, 15 February 2016 - 07:52 PM.

[DonRobby]

Clark now I have tried to tune yours and here is what i came up with.

 

Physics

gravity 0,85, playfield friction 0,02, playfield scatter and scatter falloff  0

 

Dimensions & Slope

Slope min & max difficulty 7,5 ( for that PAPA table feeling)

 

Flipper Physics

Mass 1,6, Strength 3200 ( then I can make a proper backhand on the ramps), elasticity 0,7, elasticity falloff 0,25, friction 0,3, return strength 0,06, coil ramp up 2,5

Thats pretty close to the flippers of Groni's Attack from Mars wich is the best setting I have seen yet for decent cradle seperation when you have 2 balls at 1 flipper and even a live catch although that still is pretty hard to do with this engine.

 

Also some other things I have changed to my own preferences are the plunger release speed set at 185 and made the pop bumpers have a radius of 46, lowered the slingshot force to 5 and have set that unwanted slingshot underneath the catapult to 0 although I m not sure why that slingshot is placed over there at all.

 

And that is all I know I can change, I hope this can help you.

About the other issues i mentioned I simply don't know enough about this engine, I work with Unity 3D making simulations of fairground rides, but in this being all alone I never be able to join in the development circle.

Also that other hobby of mine simply consumes too much time to being able to make that happen anyway.

[ClarkKent]

I'll try your setting! Nevertheless I think using gravity 0,86 and slope 7,5 results in almost the same as gravity 1 and slope 6,5 (more gravity, less slope and vice versa). A playfield friction 0,02 results in a sliding not rolling ball - I think this would behave like a newly lacquered and polished playfield. Mukuste always said friction should be around 0,08. Same with flippers: the wiki clearly states that low friction of the flippers disables exact center shots. And the high coil ramp up causes severe lag of the flippers (only on a virtual one).

[DonRobby]

I never notice any lag at all.

But I guess some games in VPX would require decent graphics card anyway.

Mine is 4GB 970GTX wich is not a cheap piece of hardware at a near 400 euro pricetag.

I know that it definitly plays better with a lower gravity then that default 1 setting.

That not only infuences slope speed but also makes the ball become heavier not being able to make flipper overpass work as well, only at real high speed of the ball so that's another factor that plays in finding the right balance.

And then you have this weak nudge in VPX wich would definitly give no help in such situation.

But that s also a limit in this engine just not being able to make a soft or hard nudge with triggered controls, it looks like they want the soft nudge because in older versions nudging practically was cheating to gain control over the ball.

Friction is also a matter of taste.

In my opinion setting it that high would be realistic when you want to match it's real age but that is against the principal of making a virtual replica of the real thing.

That should play like it's straight out of the box like brandnew or overhauled properly and not how it plays after the playfield starts to get damaged due to overuse.

So i suggest if you do find it sliding too much then make it a little higher but just as minimum as possible.

Edited by DonRobby, 15 February 2016 - 09:54 PM.

[vampirolatino2]

Thanks guys, you are all killing it!

downloading the file Clark, thanks!

[Ben Logan]

Clark,

 

I think your physics are quite interesting. It's clear you put some thought, research, and experience into your settings. I like Dozer's physics quite a bit, but yours are certainly worth keeping around in the form of your table for an alternative and equally cool playing experience.

 

One question: Do you find that the ball takes a strange "curveball" like arch sometimes when bouncing off the flippers, that is not consistent with the PAPA video? This is the only real disappointment I have with VPX physics -- that kind of hooked, sideways movement the ball takes when it bites into the flipper rubbers with a lot of backspin (at least I think that's what's happening to create the weird behavior). Is this something you're trying to dial out, or do you find it realistic? I've seen it on other VPX tables too, so this isn't specific to your setttings alone. 

 

Thanks!

[jpreville]

loving it! great one. Just played a couple games of the last one clark posted on dropbox. love the control i have now. 

 

Thanks John

[Pinball999]

 

2.3

 

Cautiously optimistic right ramp hang is fixed.(Made significant changes to right ramp geometry and physics).

Removed old nudge code noted by JP.

Made some small changes to switch position so right ramp make should only now be triggered when the ball is in the ramps "safe" zone. (This should fix the erroneous damsel award).

 

Bolt, I restored some of the old desktop lighting but it may not be as you remember because changed were made to the lights in cabinet mode.

I apologize, it's hard to get a good mix between modes unless you spend an ungodly amount of time re-positioning lights / flashers in the script.

 

Please everyone let me know if you get any right ramp ball hangs in the loop just before the wire ramp.

 

 

Many thanks for the update Dozer. Love what you guys have done here!

[sliderpoint]

@ClarkKent

 

I think a couple of the instances of the ball curving off to one side is actually the friction settings on Primitive3 and Ramp40.  These would account for the ball having crazy spin for any failed shots coming back down the ramps.  

 

-Mike

[ClarkKent]

I know of the weird ball behavior sometimes on the flippers. I have to admit that I do not know why. All friction settings are the way they should be (in that area). All I can say is that I noticed this kind of behavior on converted tables from VP9, never on newly designed ones for VPX. Maybe it's also a script thing? Or simply inaccuracy in design (VP9 physics was more "forgiving"). Is there somebody here who can bring some light into this?

Edited by ClarkKent, 16 February 2016 - 07:00 AM.

[Ben Logan]

I know of the weird ball behavior sometimes on the flippers. I have to admit that I do not know why. All friction settings are the way they should be. All I can say is that I noticed this kind of behavior on converted tables from VP9, never on newly designed ones for VPX. Maybe it's also a script thing? Is there somebody here who can bring some light into this?

Until I spent the entire day today messing around with physics settings, I had no idea how much the flipper physics settings govern our experience of the extent to which VP physics match real world pinball. I'm a total novice at messing with physics, but I learned a few things today:

- Each of us is rocked by certain real world ball behaviors and loves to see those ball behaviors reflected on the video screen
- It takes a community to synthesize those unique perspectives into a simulation that reflects what's actually happening on a wood and steel table (unless you're Groni, in which case you dial it in on first try)
- Flipper physics are where it's at. Friction of flipper rubbers settings are Big Bang Bar for your buck settings to experiment with. Try it! Lots of fun, and it's way easier to get satisfying results than I ever would have guessed. I like to LOWER the friction on the flippers big time. Try cranking UP the flipper elasticity and lending a solid value to the elasticity falloff for some compression. Gives you a real world bounce while the ball occupies the lower playfield, but doesn't go bonkers with a half-playfield long bounce off the flipper when the ball strikes the flipper from journey from upper playfield.

The genius of this editor is that any pinball fan can understand it. I've complained a bunch about the weird lateral curveball movement of the ball at high velocity off the flippers in VP10, and have pretty much figured out how to dial it out with an afternoon of fun with the editor. Each to his own taste! Seriously, if I can understand the engine's values, anyone can.

And, Dozer -- Thanks for an amazing table. What a gift to the community!

Edited by Ben Logan, 16 February 2016 - 07:30 AM.

[STAT]

Hey Clark, wheres the MM Remake Machine, in Austria ??

[ClarkKent]

Lowering the friction of the flippers reduces the weired behavior BUT centershots with higher speed balls are not possible anymore! That's not good either. And higher Coil Ramp Up values leed to decreased/delayed strength. To find the right balance is the almost "Mission Impossible"...

STAT: south of Vienna!

Edited by ClarkKent, 16 February 2016 - 01:35 PM.

[STAT]

South of Vienna: private or "open to all" ?

[ClarkKent]

private