22 replies to this topic

[Noah Fentz]

Hi everyone!

 

I know it's been a long time coming! Here are the Upload and hosting guidelines for our community*. Some lists are what's allowed, some what's not allowed, so please note the difference ...

 

As of this writing, just about everything prior to April 2019 is fair game, with the following exceptions. The list will also evolve to include other manufacturers ...

 

WMS/Bally (Disallowed)

• Bride of Pinbot 2.0
• Funhouse 2.0
• Colorized ROMs - As per Rick Bartlet, licensor of WMS/Bally properties. He's not one to ignore, as he is pretty aggressive in protecting his interests.

Spooky Pinball (Allowed)

• America's Most Haunted
• Total Nuclear Annihilation
• Dominoes

Charlie asked me to first ask him if we were to recreate their tables. Some of these companies have licensing agreements we do not want to jeopardize! If you would like me to ask on your behalf, feel free to reach out, and I'll give him a call.

 

Gottlieb (Disallowed)

• All Gottlieb ROMs

Jersey Jack Pinball (Allowed)

• NONE - When asked if we could, he replied, "Absolutely not!" in no uncertain terms ... enough said, Jack.

 

Stern Pinball (Allowed)

• Any title up to, and including, Black Knight, Sword of Rage

This will change as time goes on. The rule is 3 years out of production. To simplify, it would be easier for everyone to go by the release date on IPDB ...

 

 

 

 

*Uploads of disallowed content will be rejected. Sites, sellers, drive services, etc hosting or selling disallowed content will be dealt with by the respective IP representative(s).

 

Thank you!

[wiesshund]

 

 

Stern Pinball (Allowed)

• Any title up to, and including, Black Knight, Sword of Rage

This will change as time goes on. The rule is 3 years out of production. To simplify, it would be easier for everyone to go by the release date on IPDB ...

 

 

 

 

Question
Does this mean that Stern is also OK with us looking at having pinmame be able to emulate some spike 1 and spike 2 systems?

[Noah Fentz]

 

 

 

Stern Pinball (Allowed)

• Any title up to, and including, Black Knight, Sword of Rage

This will change as time goes on. The rule is 3 years out of production. To simplify, it would be easier for everyone to go by the release date on IPDB ...

 

 

 

 

Question
Does this mean that Stern is also OK with us looking at having pinmame be able to emulate some spike 1 and spike 2 systems?

 

 

Firstly, It's not so much 'OK', or allowed, as it is tolerated. We're here to preserve pinball history, not recreate the present. Tolerance only goes so far, and, as long as we stay within the realm of preservation, we should be alright.

 

With everything being open source, it's nearly impossible to emulate just older, and not all, games in a system. Before long, someone will make it possible for all, even the newest. This is why the SAM version of VPinMAME remained private and only given to particular individuals to test. The intent was to have it ready for when the time is right, not ripped off and hosted elsewhere as if it was some clandestine plot to keep it from the community.

 

That being said, it's up to the devs. I'd suggest against emulation of any kind until all the Spike 1 tables are all 3+ years old. That way, we don't see a table released literally days after the table is announced by Stern, e.g. Stern Star Trek. That wasn't good, at all.

[wiesshund]

That being said, it's up to the devs. I'd suggest against emulation of any kind until all the Spike 1 tables are all 3+ years old. That way, we don't see a table released literally days after the table is announced by Stern, e.g. Stern Star Trek. That wasn't good, at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, are they still using the Spike 1 controller in some stuff?
Did not know that, i thought they went all spike 2 over 3 years back..

Then again, they might be selling those tables in virtual form in SPA?
which would technically count as still in retail production? sort of?

[Noah Fentz]

I guess

 

 

That being said, it's up to the devs. I'd suggest against emulation of any kind until all the Spike 1 tables are all 3+ years old. That way, we don't see a table released literally days after the table is announced by Stern, e.g. Stern Star Trek. That wasn't good, at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, are they still using the Spike 1 controller in some stuff?
Did not know that, i thought they went all spike 2 over 3 years back..

Then again, they might be selling those tables in virtual form in SPA?
which would technically count as still in retail production? sort of?

 

 

Perhaps I should have stated it this way ...

 

I'd suggest against emulation of any kind until all the [system in question] tables are all 3+ years old.

[allknowing2012]

Noah, any clarity on Aerosmith?  IPDB says 2017 but not sure when it was out of production.

[Noah Fentz]

Noah, any clarity on Aerosmith?  IPDB says 2017 but not sure when it was out of production.

It's been 5 years. I'd say it's safe.

That's why the 'out of production' rule is tough. What if they do a vault version?

From what I've seen in recent years, there's been little effort to honor our agreement, so if we do three years from release, it's at least effort toward that goal and much easier for everyone to comprehend.

[anber500]

"Nothing beats the real thing!" ~ me!

I agree that we should protect pinball in all its forms. However, supporting my local arcade is becoming increasingly challenging as they simply no longer keep pinball machines. I have played with more new machines at private collectors than at arcades in the last two years. (Avengers, Godzilla, Strangers things and The Mandalorian)

Just last week, some kid swiped his card to play Guardians of the Galaxy before walking away without playing the game. I just arrived and was waiting for him to play his game before I jumped in. He walked away, and I stopped him, showed him that he had credits, and asked him why he didn't play the game?

He asked me: "Where do the tickets come out?"

When I explained that there were no tickets and that you were playing for a high score by keeping the ball alive, he responded with "oh" and walked away. This was a teenager, and he didn't understand the concept.

Pinball is dying, and there is no revival in sight. Only the people with nostalgic memories are keeping it alive. My kids love pinball because of my virtual pinball cab. Now and then, we go to our local arcade and blow a few hundred dollars.

These people "protecting" their IP are only protecting themselves. They don't give a hoot about pinball, and I would gladly give money to Stern for anything they put out there related to pinball. (Although the 3DFx titles are somewhat expensive and not ideal for my cab )

I want to do the moral thing, but they are not giving us much of an option. By restricting the creation of the tables, they are forcing the hobby underground. And there is no way anyone will generate money that way.

I respect Stern for its willingness to work with the community. One day, I will own my pinball machine; it will be Stern!

[tgx]

In another life I managed an arcade or two, okay maybe three. There was a definite

progression pinball>video>redemption. When I left the industry all eyes were on redemption

as the money maker. So your observation about the teen isn't terribly surprising. I know a number

of teens and none of them have any interest in pinball even if you let them play for free. I think the

key is early exposure. If you expose a kid when he is 5-10, they go nuts on it and I think it flips

a switch that says, 'yah this is fun.' and they remember it. We have many generations now that

have not been exposed, so yes it's dying and only recently resurrected by longtimers that are

now flush with cash.

 

Agreed, Stern's position should be a model for others. It costs nothing and generates nothing

but positive goodwill towards the manufacturer.

[tabascoman77]

In another life I managed an arcade or two, okay maybe three. There was a definite

progression pinball>video>redemption. When I left the industry all eyes were on redemption

as the money maker. So your observation about the teen isn't terribly surprising. I know a number

of teens and none of them have any interest in pinball even if you let them play for free. I think the

key is early exposure. If you expose a kid when he is 5-10, they go nuts on it and I think it flips

a switch that says, 'yah this is fun.' and they remember it. We have many generations now that

have not been exposed, so yes it's dying and only recently resurrected by longtimers that are

now flush with cash.

 

Agreed, Stern's position should be a model for others. It costs nothing and generates nothing

but positive goodwill towards the manufacturer.

This. I have a makeshift V-Cab and hook it up every Friday and Saturday to play with my 4 year old son who absolutely loves it. My goal is to get him hooked early so that he ends up being a fan later on and carries it on into the future.

[wiesshund]

 

pinball is garbage, turf them. Any reason you don't use something like an AWS S3 bucket or something similar? Seems like it'd be exceedingly cheap for your use case.

Their "terms" will be more intentional and less practical so they can stop you from doing whatever they want with a good enough excuse. It's not about the file size, it's about "how you're using them" and whether they can shaft you for more money by promoting another one of their "services".

 

 

Huh?

 

This some kind of obscure spam post to advertise amazon services?

[StevOz]

 

 

pinball is garbage, turf them. Any reason you don't use something like an AWS S3 bucket or something similar? Seems like it'd be exceedingly cheap for your use case.

Their "terms" will be more intentional and less practical so they can stop you from doing whatever they want with a good enough excuse. It's not about the file size, it's about "how you're using them" and whether they can shaft you for more money by promoting another one of their "services".

 

 

Huh?

 

This some kind of obscure spam post to advertise amazon services?

 

 

Obvious spambot, turf it...

Edited by StevOz, 26 September 2022 - 10:57 AM.

[tgx]

He forgot the </sarcasm> tags.

[pkovgolf]

Just another reason I love Stern!
They have the best machines by far and I cannot imagine why companies wouldnt make the ROM available, since they are useless without a real cabinet , or our virtual ones, that in no way impact their sales.
I will buy any real pinball machine I love, but letting us play/tweak older cabinets effects them in no way, since they are not making money on sales any longer

Im reality, many of us would buy a cabinet we really want , so it would have almost no impact on sales even if they provided the new ones . (I know some of you will argue that one - dont bother - it is just an opinion). 😏

[wiesshund]

I cannot imagine why companies wouldnt make the ROM available, since they are useless without a real cabinet , or our virtual ones, that in no way impact their sales.

 

 

This part of your statement is False.

 

There is a reason why we do not support the emulation/simulation of certain Stern (and other Mfg's) Titles here.
Even though Stern DOES make the ROM available.

 

And the reason is, it WILL harm their sales.

 

Stern does have a commercial V Pin offering called Stern Pinball Arcade.
It has Spike machines in it.

We do not condone recreating those machines nor does VPM emulate the hardware and run the ROM because it could very well harm Stern.

 

We do not allow any Jersey Jack tables here, because Jersey Jack does not wish to have ANY of the machines simulated.
They reserve the right to be able to in future offer their own virtual machines, as it their right.

 

Stern knows exactly what we do, and they are kind enough to pretend they don't notice us, because we are respectful and remained hands off of anything they showed any interest in offering virtually.

 

Some IP owners mind a lot, which is their right, we have NO rights, they do.
Other IP owners either have ceased to exist entirely and there is no one left to care, Others basically play the game of they pretend not to see us and we in turn do everything possible within the community to put down attempts to sell and profit from something we have no rights to.

Other sites perhaps not so much.

 

ANY of those IP owners has the right, at any time, to ask please remove all content that replicates our products.
They may wish of put out their own offering, or may wish to license it to someone, and us tossing it out for free derails that.

 

Gottlieb's IP owner does in fact periodically license various machines to commercial V Pin products, they Still make money from the IP.

They could probably request that table likenesses be removed as well, but they only asked for the removal of ROMs, and that is their right.

 

 

In reality, pin cabinets are very expensive, for a properly working one, even an old one.
They require constant maintenance and a lot of know how.
They are large and heavy and eat up a lot of space.
That precludes many people from privately owning one, and they probably only have the space for just one.

That is why there is a market for things like Arcade1UP and AT Games Pinball legends etc.
And the Pinball mfg's whose machines are replicated on those do make income from it.
We (here at VPF) try not to screw that up for them, there are very few of them left to begin with.

Edited by wiesshund, 30 March 2025 - 12:52 AM.

[Itchigo]

I have to laugh at some of this. I'm not saying I want to do anything but it's like having leftovers on a plate for a long time. Then Gottlieb (or whoever) is like "don't take that away, I was going to pick at that!!" (And leaves it on the plate indefinitely).

[wiesshund]

I have to laugh at some of this. I'm not saying I want to do anything but it's like having leftovers on a plate for a long time. Then Gottlieb (or whoever) is like "don't take that away, I was going to pick at that!!" (And leaves it on the plate indefinitely).

 

Except
They own the plate.

 

Be like it was your plate, at your house, and someone decided the snatch up the plate and walk off with it

And then you'd smash their hand to a bloody pulp.

 

Your plate, your house, it can sit there until it molds and becomes petrified if you so wish.

[Itchigo]

 

I have to laugh at some of this. I'm not saying I want to do anything but it's like having leftovers on a plate for a long time. Then Gottlieb (or whoever) is like "don't take that away, I was going to pick at that!!" (And leaves it on the plate indefinitely).

 

Your plate, your house, it can sit there until it molds and becomes petrified if you so wish.

 

Yes, they can. But everyone else at the table knows it's a d#@! move.

[wiesshund]

 

 

I have to laugh at some of this. I'm not saying I want to do anything but it's like having leftovers on a plate for a long time. Then Gottlieb (or whoever) is like "don't take that away, I was going to pick at that!!" (And leaves it on the plate indefinitely).

 

Your plate, your house, it can sit there until it molds and becomes petrified if you so wish.

 

Yes, they can. But everyone else at the table knows it's a d#@! move.

 

 

Does not matter, it's YOUR table.
If anyone at the table does not like it, back hand them, it's YOUR table, they don't get an opinion.

[Surgo]

I don't know if Stern will ever read this. But on the off chance they do, I just want to thank them for their policy, it's the reason I'm happy to go to the arcade every week and dump quarters into the Stern machines. And also, I hope that they one day return to digitizing their tables, as I'll be first in line to buy them!