35 replies to this topic

[bigus1]

So I'm wondering what's the consensus concerning a modder having a say in the destiny of a mod.

Say I have a cheerfully approved mod posted somewhere and after a year and a few updates, with input and resources from others, and 5k downloads, the host disappears. Should I have any say in the mods' future, or am I forever beholden to the whims of the author? Is there some point where I can fairly assume control? As the poster, I was the only one that could update it, so I already had effective control.

Is it really necessary to obtain ongoing approvals because circumstances beyond my control change? Should the mod be consigned to history because this bloke doesn't like that bloke, or whatever reason? And does any of it matter when absolutely everything is being freely posted elsewhere? Should I just join Blackbeards' crew and post whatever I like, whenever I like, and save the hassle? Crossroads ahead.

 

[jpsalas]

I can only speak for myself, so take this a my personal view. I think all it is about respect. If you make some changes to a table, then ask the author if it is ok to upload it, maybe that author likes what you did and he/she should like to make it the official version. I remember 32assassin doing several changes to some of my tables and he always asked me if I wanted to upload the table myself. Sometimes I said yes and I uploaded the table with his changes, and sometimes I preferred him to upload the tables as his mods, because there were too many changes, so the tables almost were more his than mine    

 

On the other side, when I upload something to the forum, I know that sooner or later someone will use that table and upload it other places and it will be added to torrents. I have even had my tables modified, like changing the graphics, and uploaded and even sold as their own. And you know what, I actually don't care.  I really like when someone mod some of my tables, it means that at least they are good enough so someone has interés in make them better. You can always make a table better, I feel I'm never finished with a table, I always see something more I could do to it I don't agree with people selling the tables, since we give them for free. But there will always be people doing that, as there will always be people trying to make a living on the work of others, and there will always be people trying to rob you or swindle you.

 

I usually don't give my point of view on things like this, since for me it all is about respect. So if you ask me if you can upload a mod, then I should ask you "have you contacted the author?", "have he answered you?", "is the author gone?". And if you have tried that, and there is no answer, then yes, sure, upload your mod, just keep the name of the original author and upload your table.

 

I just make tables because I like to do them, it is a hobby and it is entertaining. I can work with images, sounds, scripts... and I have a great time doing them And if someone want to mod my tables, then why not, I know that when something is uploaded to the web, then you have almost instantly make it "public domain". 

 

I think I stop here, I almost never write so much, hahaha. So yes, sure, join the Blackbeard's crew.   (but not everyone will like it )

[wiesshund]

The Whim of the author has ceased to exist.

Even the author must now re-upload someplace else

 

or

 

Abandon his creations

 

If you want to do your best to honor the original author's wishes, make an open post here and on VPU to the author

simply state that as the original term of the agreement no longer exists and is no longer valid
you would like him to chose which of the 2 remaining sites he would wish you to re-upload at and if he does not respond with in 5 days
then you will chose XYZ site by default.

 

I know some people will say Whoa!!! Hey!!! some times i might not log in for moths
That is fine, it is your prerogative, but the rest of the world does not stop for you nor revolve around you, things have to move on
with or without you

[bigus1]

Ok, so does the will of the last person to claim to be a tables' author override the will of the previous author? Fire-up BSD and it says vp9 by JPsalas in the PinMame window and script, but the table info says it's an FP port and goes on to mention a bunch of celebrities from other sites, and no mention of JP at all.

So who's the real author? Who's wishes do I follow? I don't want to piss people off by ignoring their wishes, but if they've done exactly that themselves, then what goes around comes around. BTW, Blender doesn't have a Play button, so it can't make working tables and using it as an excuse to commandeer tables doesn't wash IMO.

Is there a clear definition of what constitutes an author? As far as I can determine, it's up to the poster what they call themselves. I've even dropped the Mod tag on a couple of tables with very extensive changes. But some other folks do a rough port and consider themselves the new author. So, so confused.

I have a bunch of nice mods of missing tables and others that I'd happily publish if I was reasonably confident that it's fair and proper to do so. I'll take the heat if I know that I've followed the guidelines and that the majority supports it.

[Thalamus]

If you want respect, you have to show respect. Pretty easy really. Your mod of Avatar was based of my changes to Fren's version. I told you I didn't own the table in any way. I told you that Fren had only requested that it should be uploaded to VPinball too. So, what did you do ? Didn't mention me, Hauntfreaks or 32a. Why can't you, like anyone else in this community ask politely and include the names of those that has come before you. If you wanted to leave out our names, well, the for god sake start the table from Fren's version, not the one I created.

 

I'm just happy to see that we once again have a great looking and playing version of that table again.

[freneticamnesic]

I dunno man. I don't think it's something that needs or has an answer. Just do everything with respect, do it in good taste, and there's probably not going to be any issues! If you're staring down a table that's 14 iterations deep then I don't think #15 is going to break the camel's back.

If you want respect, you have to show respect. Pretty easy really. Your mod of Avatar was based of my changes to Fren's version. I told you I didn't own the table in any way. I told you that Fren had only requested that it should be uploaded to VPinball too. So, what did you do ? Didn't mention me, Hauntfreaks or 32a. Why can't you, like anyone else in this community ask politely and include the names of those that has come before you. If you wanted to leave out our names, well, the for god sake start the table from Fren's version, not the one I created.

 

I'm just happy to see that we once again have a great looking and playing version of that table again.

 

sounds like I missed something 

If we're really talking about avatar, I felt like my original posting on VPU (and I believe this is what I would have said on VPB) covered everyone, not trying to cover up anything, I was very clear where my resources came from. I'm flattered to see people modifying that table and it continues to get new life but really, I did the least work out of anyone in the chain. I wouldn't have made it without the FP source table and the VP9 script. I duct taped the thing together to get more people playing the VPX beta (along with like 5 other tables done in a similar manner)

 

This is actually a good case where I reached out to francisco and didn't get a response. I can't remember which site that was, not pinsimdb but forums he had been pretty active on. In that case I just tried to be as respectful as possible, make it clear that it really wasn't my table, and if he had ever reached out and asked me to take it down it would be gone in a heartbeat.

 

 

 

This is a relatively quick build of a table I enjoy playing

Scripting done by 85vett, modified to work in VPX by myself
Table done by francisco666 and lacarril, with additions by myself and converted to work in VPX

 

Essentially, this is a FP to VPX conversion, using the script from the exist VP9 table.

[Shockman]

I though we once had a consensus on this topic and no such lingering problems inside this community. Hurt pride from outside sometimes maybe. Maybe a different time and a different membership.

Respect what you have and where you got it.

[bigus1]

Thalamus, I and everyone else knows that you hate me and you seem unable to move forward and like to take every opportunity to belittle my efforts while promoting any version of a table not from me, or on this site, as being a billion times better. So, if you can't answer my questions, please pack-up your soapbox and move along.

Every table I post these days starts with the names of the most recent authors. And I leave the table info intact.

I've already repeatedly acknowledged past mistakes as a beginner and presenting that as current behavior is misleading at best. However, it does feed into what I'm trying to determine with regards to vague or non-existent rules. I have total respect for other content providers and I'm not fishing for any myself. My problem is about a free-to-mod table being locked-down in some way by subsequent contributors and whether their constraints are valid or have priority over the previous author.

Or, simply, am i disrespecting one authors wishes by respecting anothers? I know if I were to lock-down one of JP's tables, for instance, his wishes are not respected.

I'd rather not have to choose but I reckon if a table is built upon freely given content, then it's just wrong to lay claim over it and restrict its use.

[gtxjoe]

Its simple. If you start with someones VPX file and take it over, its a mod

Did you basically start with an empty playfield andi place every object onto the playfield? Sure you can copy objects from the example table, or other tables or even a previous version of the table but they should get mention in the credits. If a group of table object locations match exactly to another version of the table than I start to think its a mod

Did you place every wall, rubber, ramp, light, switch, ramp? If a lot of the object names match a previous authors version of the table than its starting to look like a mod. Show the respect and mention authors you borrow from.

Did you create and debug the table script? Yes there are a lot of helper subs and re-use these days, thats fine. Dud you create a bunch of new subroutines? Or use from a previous authors version of the table? If the script looks like plagiarism do you have permission and did you mention the author?

If you use a new playfield image scan or create one or use playfield from FP with permission then we know you have to put the time in to build out the table from scratch and you deserve author credits.

If an author can take a look at your table and instantly say hey that looks like it came from my table, did you have permission and did you give credit?

Edited by gtxjoe, 14 May 2021 - 12:08 PM.

[Itchigo]

It's not rocket science, I don't know why these threads get so much life.

 

Ask the author for permission.

 

If the author is MIA, give credit to the original author.

 

If the author comes out of hiding and wants it taken down, then take it down.

 

If you have a case of someone blatantly repackaging something as their own, report it.

 

I don't really care about mods of my old stuff, but I did have someone repackage my table templates as their own. End rant

[bigus1]

Thanks gtxjoe, just replace VPX with table in your first line, and we're mostly on the same page. It's kinda lonely in the MOD section. I'm under no illusion about what I'm doing. Begs the question as to who can rightfully authorize stuff. I know none of this matters a great deal to most of you because you don't enjoy your hobby the same way that I do, and maybe I won't get more than the standard answers because you haven't had to deal with it, but the permission system (if you can call it that) is broken.

 

There seems to be this idea that when someone does a mod it's somehow destructive to the original table. Somebody modding my mods doesn't stop me from continuing to update mine. It's just another evolutionary branch that may thrive or die off, as is mine.

[gtxjoe]

The mod system is not broken. You want to mod a table for private use, no one will say anything

Its simple, you want to release a mod to the public, respect the author and make sure you have clear permission to do so.

No permission available, keep to mod for private use

[bigus1]

Look, I know better than anyone how shit works and it isn't as straightforward as you so tritely put it. Someone gets a bug up their arse about something unrelated to me and then wants to change their mind, or just plain forgets, or won't respond even though they're active or a whole bunch of other time wasting pursuits. Sometimes they say no because they don't like the website and then allow someone else from another site. More than anything, you get crickets.

By your definition, practically everybody is a modder and shouldn't be entitled to dictate permissions as they're not the author. Permissions on mods should probably be inherited from the original author. No is fine and Yes obviously, it's the Yes, with approval that stutters. That's where issues other than pinball come into play.

[Thalamus]

Ok, so does the will of the last person to claim to be a tables' author override the will of the previous author? Fire-up BSD and it says vp9 by JPsalas in the PinMame window and script, but the table info says it's an FP port and goes on to mention a bunch of celebrities from other sites, and no mention of JP at all.

So who's the real author? Who's wishes do I follow? I don't want to piss people off by ignoring their wishes, but if they've done exactly that themselves, then what goes around comes around. BTW, Blender doesn't have a Play button, so it can't make working tables and using it as an excuse to commandeer tables doesn't wash IMO.

Is there a clear definition of what constitutes an author? As far as I can determine, it's up to the poster what they call themselves. I've even dropped the Mod tag on a couple of tables with very extensive changes. But some other folks do a rough port and consider themselves the new author. So, so confused.

I have a bunch of nice mods of missing tables and others that I'd happily publish if I was reasonably confident that it's fair and proper to do so. I'll take the heat if I know that I've followed the guidelines and that the majority supports it.

So, I re-uploaded BSD to VPU, with the exact same release info as previous. JPSalas was mentioned, so was a lot of other celebrities as you like to call your fellow community members.Sure, I do have a feud with you. I generally don't like you or your mods. I find your physics very boring to be honest. You sent me your mod of this table a while back and I told you. I was on 1B on first ball, and still had the ball trapped on the flipper when I got so bored that I ended the game. That goes for most of your mods. I believe I have 3 of ... how many releases from you ? You mentioned earlier that I had to travel far to play real pinballs. That is partly true. I prefer to travel to play well maintained games. I have a shorter travel distance to a few machines than what you so smirk' mentioned in another thread attacking me.

 

If you want to mod my mod, you have to ask me for permission first. If you want to work from ICP's version - please ask him for permission just like I did.

 

Btw. you are still able to edit your own uploads. I would prefer if you actually went back and rectified pr. example Avatar.

[Noah Fentz]

The simple answer is ...

 

If it originates from a 'free to MOD, without permission' table, it remains 'free to MOD, without permission'.

 

To change that changes the entire spirit with which it was originally shared.

[freneticamnesic]

Is anyone else actually confused about this or just bigus?

[remdwaas1986]

Ok, so does the will of the last person to claim to be a tables' author override the will of the previous author? Fire-up BSD and it says vp9 by JPsalas in the PinMame window and script, but the table info says it's an FP port and goes on to mention a bunch of celebrities from other sites, and no mention of JP at all.

So who's the real author? Who's wishes do I follow? I don't want to piss people off by ignoring their wishes, but if they've done exactly that themselves, then what goes around comes around. BTW, Blender doesn't have a Play button, so it can't make working tables and using it as an excuse to commandeer tables doesn't wash IMO.

Is there a clear definition of what constitutes an author? As far as I can determine, it's up to the poster what they call themselves. I've even dropped the Mod tag on a couple of tables with very extensive changes. But some other folks do a rough port and consider themselves the new author. So, so confused.

I have a bunch of nice mods of missing tables and others that I'd happily publish if I was reasonably confident that it's fair and proper to do so. I'll take the heat if I know that I've followed the guidelines and that the majority supports it.

I have a big respect for all the autors in this post. I have now the same issue, nobody works on the vpx table anymore from escape from monkey island. I rebuilded everything from scratch in my sample table that i use. i changed the playfield a bit added a 8th direction for shooting the ball, added animation, lava/ magma. added diffrent sounds, used the base playfield and created new a new design on it, with diffrent lights. added diffrent 3d objects. So basically it's a new table with a use of a couple 3d objects and some design of the older ones. 

What should i do here? 

I contacted Shoopity if it is oke to rebuild it, it was fine if nobody is finishing the WIP from 2016, i need to post everything in the WIP and that is what i'm doing. Then i contacted Popotte because i saw he released the table in vpx 8.0 he gave me the mail adress from Ian en i contacted him and he gave a go. Mostly Hauntfreaks provided all the images, for the older tables.

When i release the table should i add al these people as authors, or only mention their names like i always do?

I really hope you look one day at my tables bigus and help me update the lightning. I will update the table myself and thank you ofcource for the update!

 

If you want respect, you have to show respect. Pretty easy really. Your mod of Avatar was based of my changes to Fren's version. I told you I didn't own the table in any way. I told you that Fren had only requested that it should be uploaded to VPinball too. So, what did you do ? Didn't mention me, Hauntfreaks or 32a. Why can't you, like anyone else in this community ask politely and include the names of those that has come before you. If you wanted to leave out our names, well, the for god sake start the table from Fren's version, not the one I created.

 

I'm just happy to see that we once again have a great looking and playing version of that table again.

We think the same. If you want respect, you show respect. But what do people mean with credits? do you thank them or do you add them also as authors?

 

Its simple. If you start with someones VPX file and take it over, its a mod

Did you basically start with an empty playfield andi place every object onto the playfield? Sure you can copy objects from the example table, or other tables or even a previous version of the table but they should get mention in the credits. If a group of table object locations match exactly to another version of the table than I start to think its a mod

Did you place every wall, rubber, ramp, light, switch, ramp? If a lot of the object names match a previous authors version of the table than its starting to look like a mod. Show the respect and mention authors you borrow from.

Did you create and debug the table script? Yes there are a lot of helper subs and re-use these days, thats fine. Dud you create a bunch of new subroutines? Or use from a previous authors version of the table? If the script looks like plagiarism do you have permission and did you mention the author?

If you use a new playfield image scan or create one or use playfield from FP with permission then we know you have to put the time in to build out the table from scratch and you deserve author credits.

If an author can take a look at your table and instantly say hey that looks like it came from my table, did you have permission and did you give credit?

Like in my example is it then also a mod? no right

 

It's not rocket science, I don't know why these threads get so much life.

 

Ask the author for permission.

 

If the author is MIA, give credit to the original author.

 

If the author comes out of hiding and wants it taken down, then take it down.

 

If you have a case of someone blatantly repackaging something as their own, report it.

 

I don't really care about mods of my old stuff, but I did have someone repackage my table templates as their own. End rant

Indeed 2 people also ask to mod a table that i released. i learned a lot from the old stuff you posted! always ask permission. For super mario i waited 6 months till i got a message so i could use 3d objects from mario bros 1992.

[Noah Fentz]

Is anyone else actually confused about this or just bigus?

Well, I think there's been a major shift on how MODs are viewed and the mission statement in general.

We're way off course, imo.

The founding concept here is to all work together to preserve pinball through software simulation and
VP history in general. It's evolved into something much more 'cliquey' and scattered into clubs of 'exclusivity'. When someone gives permission to MOD with the condition of where it can be shared, that implies ownership.

The sheer irony of me recently being accused of claiming ownership, while all this MINE, MINE, MINE shit is going on is just priceless.

No one owns any of it, we're ALL supposed to be in this together, and we should be just playing some damn pinball instead of stressing about the fate of stuff that should just be freely shared in the first place.

[Trinity]

When I finally get my tables built, I'm going to ask that everyone please modify and make them worth a shit.

Unless you are wanting to upload them on the second Tuesday of the third month in the afternoon. I won't stand for that.

 

Just having some fun. I love being a part of the community here. You guys are rock stars. Keep up the good work

[Wylte]

Unless you are wanting to upload them on the second Tuesday of the third month in the afternoon. I won't stand for that.

Is that only March, or every 3rd month? Because I had big plans for 4pm June 8...