32 replies to this topic

[toolmaker]

For those of you who are considering the purchase of a Microsoft Kinect 2 for use with your pincab and FP/BAM I offer a bit of information that I wish I had known before taking the plunge.  First off, let me say that it has been amazing to see how far virtual pinball has come over the last ten years; it always seems that we are in the middle of some exciting times.

 

I recently decided to re-build my pincab and included a Microsoft Kinect 2 as part of the build, watching the videos online really sparked a lot of interest.

 

When I received my Kinect 2 I got it up and running immediately and did not run into any issues with the installation.  Once installed I began testing some tables and found it very hard to “auto calibrate”, no matter what I did, it just wouldn’t work!  During this time I was using a HD television (1920 X 1080) because I was waiting for my 4K television to arrive.  Once I changed out my display to 4K, the calibration issue went away.  Now I am not saying that this was the cause of my problem or that this is the solution to yours because who really knows, but wanted to share as something to consider.

 

After the calibration, I watched every video and read every document I could get my hands on for setting up BAM with the Kinect 2 and once again, I could not get it set up right.  What I mean by set up right is that it never looked like it does in the youtube videos, the bottom of the playfield just moved around, which kind of resembled a 3D effect but not good enough.

 

I got my setting as close to perfect as possible and made a video of the MOTU playfield. To my surprise, the video looked perfect, the bottom of the playfield was not just moving around anymore and everything looked like a real table.  When I went back to by cab and saw the playfield moving around again I immediately realized that this method is based off of one point in space, which is why the cameras look perfect and looking with your eyes did not. Your eyes have two points in space which renders the effect useless.  This was confirmed by simply closing one eye and looking at the table, perfect, everything looks great!

 

OK, so I can only use this with one eye closed/covered.  Wish I know that before the purchase.  Also, I find that I always gravitate towards VPX and Future Pinball with BAM in static cam mode as it just works and looks great.  The Kinect 2 is just a novelty at this point, I show people how it works and everyone is amazed and then we move on to playing without the Kinect 2.

 

I may be completely wrong with this and missed something but I doubt it.  If someone can chime in and share their experience I believe that it would help a lot of cab owners who are considering taking the Kinect plunge.

 

[gimli246]

You are right that videos look more 3d than the actual experiance due to monucular 3d. While playing with one eye closed simulates this as well it is not very comfortable.

If you play Future pinball while wearing a VR headset with a "pass through " camera you get the same effect .but with some lag

(Of course if you have a vr headset you can use BAM VR which is amazing)

Edited by gimli246, 14 October 2019 - 03:32 AM.

[GeorgeH]

...So Kinect 2 costs $400?  Is that right?

[toolmaker]

...So Kinect 2 costs $400?  Is that right?

 

I paid $75 for a modded version on e-bay.

 

https://www.ebay.com...872.m2749.l2649

You are right that videos look more 3d than the actual experiance due to monucular 3d. While playing with one eye closed simulates this as well it is not very comfortable.

If you play Future pinball while wearing a VR headset with a "pass through " camera you get the same effect .but with some lag

(Of course if you have a vr headset you can use BAM VR which is amazing)

 

Thanks, glad that it's not just me.  Glad to hear that there is a sound solution out there.

[gimli246]

...So Kinect 2 costs $400?  Is that right?

 
I paid $75 for a modded version on e-bay.
 
https://www.ebay.com...872.m2749.l2649

You are right that videos look more 3d than the actual experiance due to monucular 3d. While playing with one eye closed simulates this as well it is not very comfortable.

If you play Future pinball while wearing a VR headset with a "pass through " camera you get the same effect .but with some lag

(Of course if you have a vr headset you can use BAM VR which is amazing)

 
Thanks, glad that it's not just me.  Glad to hear that there is a sound solution out there.

Ya I was so intrigued by this illusion about 4 years ago that I researched "monocular 3d" as possible new form of 3d gaming technology . You don't require a 3d display or tv just some "monocular glasses" (which dont exist)

They now have monucular security cameras whose data get converted for 3d spacial tracking.

I actually got permission and access to coding of active shuttering glasses and was playing with variable left/right eye shuttering relative to the computer monitor frequncy but I couldn't create the desired result

Edited by gimli246, 15 October 2019 - 01:52 AM.

[dbknightx]

Great discussion, and toolmaker your description almost fits my experience exactly.  I had seen the videos in the past, but they were of Future Pinball which I had no interest in.  Earlier this year I saw that there had been some work done on VPX, but it seemed early and I was still in the midst of building my cabinet so I tuned it out.

 

My VP cabinet build project was completed a month or so ago and I’m still in the “software tuning” stage.  However, I still find myself wanting to play my real pinball machines (I have an LOTR, Metallica Pro, and AFM) much more than the VP.  I attribute that primarily to the 2D playfield display, since I’m relatively happy with the audial and tactile feedback (thanks to SSF).

 

I’ve had an HTC Vive for a couple of years so the other day I decided to try out VPVR using a couple of sample tables (TAF and AC/DC) and was blown away with the realism.  Even using an XBox controller it gave me more of that “just one more game” feeling that a real pinball machine does.

 

The major drawbacks:  The resolution is way too low (can’t see the back of the machine or read the DMD), and the weight of the headset became annoying quickly (partially because you are tilting your head down slightly, and compounded by my wireless receiver that is mounted to the top of the headset strap).

 

I figured that Kinect coupled with my awesome cabinet would be my “holy grail”.  I already had a Kinect v2 in a box from an early Xbox One purchase, so I ordered the windows adapter and set out to try it out last night.  It took me awhile to get the Kinect working (turned out to be a USB port issue) but I eventually did.  I installed FP + BAM, since I’d heard the implementation there was superior to the current state of VPVR, and got the Kinect calibrated (which also took a lot of trial and error).

 

Fired up my first table and... that’s it?  It didn’t feel anywhere near as cool as the VR experience or even what I’d observed in YouTube videos.  Maybe all those people saying it was a novelty weren’t wrong?  At the end of the evening I attributed it to some delay I was observing and decided to call it a night and try again today.

 

Then I saw this post and I think it has clicked for me.  I will try the “one eye closed” trick to see how that performs, but obviously that is NOT a solution.  I’m guessing this is just how it is and without some sort of a “separate” view per eye, it will always seem off.

 

Now I’m contemplating if I want to upgrade my VR system but that would NOT be anywhere near my cabinet so I’d need to build a “stubby” cabinet, ideally standing up.  Ugh.

 

There is probably some hardware coming down the road that will give me my Holy Grail, like some lightweight AR glasses that can overlay a 4K perfectly rendered image on the playfield of my cabinet, but I’m guessing we are looking at 5+ years away if not longer.  In the meantime I’m left wondering if I’ll ever be satisfied with the 2D effect of current VP cabs.

 

Right now, I think I’ll take the money from a VR upgrade (another bandaid) and just put that towards another real pinball machine...

Edited by dbknightx, 06 November 2019 - 01:48 PM.

[Ashram56]

ah ! That's a very good explanation !

 

I had a Kinect 2 lying around from my Xbox One, so it did not cost me much beside the PC adapter (which I also had for other purpose, but anyway). And Indeed while the effect looked cool, the fact that the bottom of the playfield moved was really strange.

 

I'll definitely try this out, just for the sake of understanding.

[mazzaneo]

Does anyone know if the 2 x PS3 Eye solution is better suited for 3D, or does it suffer from the same problem?

[toolmaker]

Does anyone know if the 2 x PS3 Eye solution is better suited for 3D, or does it suffer from the same problem?

 

The cameras, PS3 or Kinect, just provide a means of tracking your movement.  I have not tested it, but believe that the PS3's would suffer from the same issue as the application is rendering the playfield based upon a tracked point in space and that would not differ between cameras.

[gimli246]

Ps3 eyes is worse as you have to sync two cameras

Apart from vr , the best way to have 3d is using a 3d tv plus kinect for future pinball.
I have 50 inch samsung and it is amazing. The 3d is adjstable in bam menu. The kinect isnt necessary but it adds the ability to look around things (adds positional tracking to the 3d)

To get a vague idea of what I mean you can use red/green dollar store 3d glasses and select anegram 3d from bam 3d menu on your current system...bam used to allow shoulder tracking as alternative to head traking because glasses would interfere with head recognition of the kinect...

TO use a 3d tv you need an nvidia card that supports 3d tv play and a 3d tv....and you have to install an older driver as nvidea no longer officially supports it

Passive 3d tv like lg is best so you dont have to keep charging the glasses like with active shutter systems like samsung. The higher yhe tv resolution the better

Edited by gimli246, 01 April 2020 - 12:22 PM.

[azhighwayz]

Ps3 eyes is worse as you have to sync two cameras

Apart from vr , the best way to have 3d is using a 3d tv plus kinect for future pinball.
I have 50 inch samsung and it is amazing. The 3d is adjstable in bam menu. The kinect isnt necessary but it adds the ability to look around things (adds positional tracking to the 3d)

To get a vague idea of what I mean you can use red/green dollar store 3d glasses and select anegram 3d from bam 3d menu on your current system...bam used to allow shoulder tracking as alternative to head traking because glasses would interfere with head recognition of the kinect...

TO use a 3d tv you need an nvidia card that supports 3d tv play and a 3d tv....and you have to install an older driver as nvidea no longer officially supports it

Passive 3d tv like lg is best so you dont have to keep charging the glasses like with active shutter systems like samsung. The higher yhe tv resolution the better

 

I have an older Sony 3D TV circa 2013'ish KDL-60R550A we use in our bedroom. It has passive 3D and supposedly a native 120Hz refresh rate with the "Motion Flow" moniker touting it as 240Hz. The issue for me is I cannot even get through an entire 3D movie before the 3D stops working. I was considering replacing this TV in the bedroom and was going to use it for my first VPC. Has anyone else ran into an issue like this with their 3D capable TV and is the Kinect more of a gimmick or does it actually work well with 3D TV's?

[gimli246]

 

Ps3 eyes is worse as you have to sync two cameras

Apart from vr , the best way to have 3d is using a 3d tv plus kinect for future pinball.
I have 50 inch samsung and it is amazing. The 3d is adjstable in bam menu. The kinect isnt necessary but it adds the ability to look around things (adds positional tracking to the 3d)

To get a vague idea of what I mean you can use red/green dollar store 3d glasses and select anegram 3d from bam 3d menu on your current system...bam used to allow shoulder tracking as alternative to head traking because glasses would interfere with head recognition of the kinect...

TO use a 3d tv you need an nvidia card that supports 3d tv play and a 3d tv....and you have to install an older driver as nvidea no longer officially supports it

Passive 3d tv like lg is best so you dont have to keep charging the glasses like with active shutter systems like samsung. The higher yhe tv resolution the better

 

I have an older Sony 3D TV circa 2013'ish KDL-60R550A we use in our bedroom. It has passive 3D and supposedly a native 120Hz refresh rate with the "Motion Flow" moniker touting it as 240Hz. The issue for me is I cannot even get through an entire 3D movie before the 3D stops working. I was considering replacing this TV in the bedroom and was going to use it for my first VPC. Has anyone else ran into an issue like this with their 3D capable TV and is the Kinect more of a gimmick or does it actually work well with 3D TV's?

 

 

If you have a fast PC with a good Graphics card that is 3d capable then BAM future pinball is amazing in 3d .  I presume your TV is capable of using 3d SBS images ?  And again you have to use an old nvidia driver that enables "3dTVPlay". You used to have to pay for 3dTVPlay addon and then it became a standard free feature but since April 2019 I believe it isn't officially supported...so you either have to roll back the driver or use a hack...

 

Kinect head tracking is a gimmick and if you keep your head still while playing in 3d you don't need it.  It's like when you watch a 3d movie.  If you pause the movie and move your head around , you will see the that the 3d effect gets skewed..)

 

Kinect (and ps3 eyes etc..) are a nice add on to a 3d tv for future pinball because it prevents this distortion ...the 3d image you are seeing tracks positionally. And so kinect is less of a gimmick when combined with a 3d tv , because it actually enhances the experience.

 

That being said I wasn't able to get my old kinect to work properly last time I tried...so I usually just use the TV.  

[azhighwayz]

Great thanks for the info. I really appreciate it. I was going to run an older computer an intel  i7 975 with an Nvidia GTX 690. I think it should be able to handle the 3D play field and LCD translite without too many problems. If not I'll start shopping second hand sites for used 10 series graphics cards and maybe a second gen ryzen chip to gather up. I'll go looking for an older driver to install. I'm looking forward to the challenge of getting my own VP machine up and running. I've already ordered the buttons for the machine.

[gimli246]

Great thanks for the info. I really appreciate it. I was going to run an older computer an intel  i7 975 with an Nvidia GTX 690. I think it should be able to handle the 3D play field and LCD translite without too many problems. If not I'll start shopping second hand sites for used 10 series graphics cards and maybe a second gen ryzen chip to gather up. I'll go looking for an older driver to install. I'm looking forward to the challenge of getting my own VP machine up and running. I've already ordered the buttons for the machine.

Yes that should work nicely. let me know if you run into problems..it is definitely worth the effort.

Cheers

[toolmaker]

For those of you who are considering the purchase of a Microsoft Kinect 2 for use with your pincab and FP/BAM I offer a bit of information that I wish I had known before taking the plunge.  First off, let me say that it has been amazing to see how far virtual pinball has come over the last ten years; it always seems that we are in the middle of some exciting times.

 

I recently decided to re-build my pincab and included a Microsoft Kinect 2 as part of the build, watching the videos online really sparked a lot of interest.

 

When I received my Kinect 2 I got it up and running immediately and did not run into any issues with the installation.  Once installed I began testing some tables and found it very hard to “auto calibrate”, no matter what I did, it just wouldn’t work!  During this time I was using a HD television (1920 X 1080) because I was waiting for my 4K television to arrive.  Once I changed out my display to 4K, the calibration issue went away.  Now I am not saying that this was the cause of my problem or that this is the solution to yours because who really knows, but wanted to share as something to consider.

 

After the calibration, I watched every video and read every document I could get my hands on for setting up BAM with the Kinect 2 and once again, I could not get it set up right.  What I mean by set up right is that it never looked like it does in the youtube videos, the bottom of the playfield just moved around, which kind of resembled a 3D effect but not good enough.

 

I got my setting as close to perfect as possible and made a video of the MOTU playfield. To my surprise, the video looked perfect, the bottom of the playfield was not just moving around anymore and everything looked like a real table.  When I went back to by cab and saw the playfield moving around again I immediately realized that this method is based off of one point in space, which is why the cameras look perfect and looking with your eyes did not. Your eyes have two points in space which renders the effect useless.  This was confirmed by simply closing one eye and looking at the table, perfect, everything looks great!

 

OK, so I can only use this with one eye closed/covered.  Wish I know that before the purchase.  Also, I find that I always gravitate towards VPX and Future Pinball with BAM in static cam mode as it just works and looks great.  The Kinect 2 is just a novelty at this point, I show people how it works and everyone is amazed and then we move on to playing without the Kinect 2.

 

I may be completely wrong with this and missed something but I doubt it.  If someone can chime in and share their experience I believe that it would help a lot of cab owners who are considering taking the Kinect plunge.

 

 

I wanted to provide some additional information as I believe that my post above is not fair and is painting a picture that is not accurate.  From what I have gathered to date, the real use of the tracking feature is to be used in conjunction with the stereo 3D option in BAM such as Passive, Shutter, Anaglyph, Etc.

To verify this, I purchased some red/cyan 3D glasses, used Kinect tracking and enabled the 3D Anaglyph settings in BAM and everything looks and works as you would expect without having to close one eye.  In the above post I stated  "OK, so I can only use this with one eye closed/covered."  which is not true.  My lack of knowledge and understanding was the problem and I don't want to steer anyone away from trying this because of a comment I made that was inappropriate.

I believe that using head tracking in conjunction with the passive 3D settings (requires a 3D TV) is your best bet.  The red/cyan option does work but you loose the color depth.

 

Edited by toolmaker, 08 May 2020 - 08:06 PM.

[gimli246]

 

For those of you who are considering the purchase of a Microsoft Kinect 2 for use with your pincab and FP/BAM I offer a bit of information that I wish I had known before taking the plunge.  First off, let me say that it has been amazing to see how far virtual pinball has come over the last ten years; it always seems that we are in the middle of some exciting times.

 

I recently decided to re-build my pincab and included a Microsoft Kinect 2 as part of the build, watching the videos online really sparked a lot of interest.

 

When I received my Kinect 2 I got it up and running immediately and did not run into any issues with the installation.  Once installed I began testing some tables and found it very hard to “auto calibrate”, no matter what I did, it just wouldn’t work!  During this time I was using a HD television (1920 X 1080) because I was waiting for my 4K television to arrive.  Once I changed out my display to 4K, the calibration issue went away.  Now I am not saying that this was the cause of my problem or that this is the solution to yours because who really knows, but wanted to share as something to consider.

 

After the calibration, I watched every video and read every document I could get my hands on for setting up BAM with the Kinect 2 and once again, I could not get it set up right.  What I mean by set up right is that it never looked like it does in the youtube videos, the bottom of the playfield just moved around, which kind of resembled a 3D effect but not good enough.

 

I got my setting as close to perfect as possible and made a video of the MOTU playfield. To my surprise, the video looked perfect, the bottom of the playfield was not just moving around anymore and everything looked like a real table.  When I went back to by cab and saw the playfield moving around again I immediately realized that this method is based off of one point in space, which is why the cameras look perfect and looking with your eyes did not. Your eyes have two points in space which renders the effect useless.  This was confirmed by simply closing one eye and looking at the table, perfect, everything looks great!

 

OK, so I can only use this with one eye closed/covered.  Wish I know that before the purchase.  Also, I find that I always gravitate towards VPX and Future Pinball with BAM in static cam mode as it just works and looks great.  The Kinect 2 is just a novelty at this point, I show people how it works and everyone is amazed and then we move on to playing without the Kinect 2.

 

I may be completely wrong with this and missed something but I doubt it.  If someone can chime in and share their experience I believe that it would help a lot of cab owners who are considering taking the Kinect plunge.

 

 

I wanted to provide some additional information as I believe that my post above is not fair and is painting a picture that is not accurate.  From what I have gathered to date, the real use of the tracking feature is to be used in conjunction with the stereo 3D option in BAM such as Passive, Shutter, Anaglyph, Etc.

To verify this, I purchased some red/cyan 3D glasses, used Kinect tracking and enabled the 3D Anaglyph settings in BAM and everything looks and works as you would expect without having to close one eye.  In the above post I stated  "OK, so I can only use this with one eye closed/covered."  which is not true.  My lack of knowledge and understanding was the problem and I don't want to steer anyone away from trying this because of a comment I made that was inappropriate.

I believe that using head tracking in conjunction with the passive 3D settings (requires a 3D TV) is your best bet.  The red/cyan option does work but you loose the color depth.

 

 

Precisely.   Unfortunately 3dTv have almost gone the way of the Dodo Bird.  I am not sure if there are 4k 3d LED TV out there...but that would provide everything you need for all the upcoming pinup BAM Future pinball extravaganza.  

 

I don't think many people have even tried a 3d TV plus Kinnect....but it is VERY cool. 

This is actually what originally drew me to Future Pinball 6 years ago...

The main limitation on my old 3d TV is the resolution is not as good as current TV's ...but still I love it.

[TerryRed]

Yes, the only issue with heatracking is that our eyes converge the mono image of the TV and you lose the 3D depth.

 

However, when combined with stereo effects from a proper 3DTV... it looks fantastic! Almost Similar to how VR would look.

 

Problem is... getting a 3D TV today is pretty hard.

Edited by TerryRed, 09 May 2020 - 04:10 PM.

[Dr Neurus]

Hi all,

I run an lg 42inch in my cabinet with a kinect 2. Future pinball looks really good. Unfortunately it has some lag and the future pinball physics are not as good as virtual pinball's ( in my opinion).

The only two things that mess with thw ilusion in my opinion are...

1. Screen resolution. With a passive HD TV you olny get 420 pixes across for each eye which is quite hard to ignore.
2. There is a bit of lag in the head tracking and if you move too much.. too fast... seems like the playfield is made of jelly.

Don't get me wrong...it is still amaizing

I also run BAM in VPX 10.7,but when I switch stereovision on.... I only get the output for one Eye. Could this be a GPU driver issue? I use a MSI GTX 960 OC.

[bgood]

Ok Dr: i have a cabinet FP set up (3 monitor) I5 processor, GTX 1050 GPU 8Gb ram. Using BAM 345 and the Kinect X-Box camera and Microsoft SDK-1, 4K 43" tv. Just letting readers know what system I'm using. I'm also assuming peoples have been using FP and BAM long enough that they know how to setup their tables properly using BAM and saving those tables. (FOV)

I also use VPX 10.7 but that is in VP not Future Pinball. However VPX 10.7 does now let you make your tables 3D using RED/CYAN glasses. I don't think VP 10.7 has any settings for the Kinect

Camera but If so I'd like all the info on this to be posted. I don't know alot about video card but I think my GTX 1050 would be bare minimum for a GPU, as mine some times takes 5 minutes for the Z setting (depth) to kick in. FP in 3D mode works the best for me so far in my testings.There is colour lost when you go into 3D mode but most tables look pretty good. i know this is not for every-one but considering the additional cost for me to upgrade to VR (expensive GPU and Quest 2) Ilove what I have accomplished and play all my tables in FP-3D. Who knows where this will end up as it seems to get better with every upgrade to BAm. Thank-You Ravarcade. Love the depth and my tables look, feel and play like real tables.

[gmg4life]

Just tried this in FP with a Kinect 2 and I'm rather blown away.  It's amazing that the effect looks 3D with one eye closed.  That said, it still looks cool with both eyes open.  The depth is lost but it still feels quasi-3D.  The problem is that the playfield moves too much with both eyes open, it does not with one eye closed.  There must be a way to adjust for this, I would be perfectly happy to use this with both eyes open if I could make the playfield move less...