203 replies to this topic

[T-800]

With winter quickly approaching and more reason to stay indoors, I think I'll start building a real version of Wrath of Olympus. I'm going to have a whole bunch of NOOB questions along the way, so thanks in advance for everyone's help and patience. Luckily, I've got a few people locally here that know a bit more about electronics than me who will hopefully at least be helping me from accidentally electrocuting myself...

After looking around there are quite a few options out there for controlling your own homemade pinball machine. One of the more predominant options is through the use of P-ROC. This system seems like it is pretty clean, easier to understand the programming language, and maybe more straightforward in implementation. P-ROC is expensive though (boards alone are gonna run me about $700) After looking at the awesome work Rosve has done on Gyruss with using an iPAC, LEDWiz and a computer I'm pretty pumped about the option of using that. This system would be less expensive and could leverage most of the code that JP has already so graciously provided. Guess I'm leaning towards trying it out the way Rosve has done because of my familiarity with VP, the iPAC, and I should learn how to use an LEDWiz anyway...

First question is, are there any other options out there I'm missing and what are people's thoughts on utilizing the VP version of WOOLY to make a real one?
(Also, are there any members out there that would like to help out on this program - especially those arleady using LEDWIZ with lots of peripherals?)

Second question - any members/animators out there that are interested in implementing the storyboards I've drawn up to make DMD animations for this pin?

Third question - any members out there with their own CNC router interested in donating some of their machine time to route the playfield once I finish it up in CAD?

[s1500]

I think you should invite me over for some input. This sounds fascinating. I could maybe mock up a few things, for I am no graphic artist. As for friends I have(both now lovin' the silverball since I introduced them to it) may have some resources as well.

[rosve]

One major disadvantage with the LedWiz is that it only have 32 outputs. Later on I'll see if I can make VP work with 2 LedWiz boards. If not I'm looking into using PINterface, http://www.millisoft...nterface_en.php, for my next build.

For Gyruss the LedWiz solution was OK because the table was designed to work with 32 outputs.

Edited by rosve, 08 November 2012 - 08:13 PM.

[T-800]

One major disadvantage with the LedWiz is that it only have 32 outputs. Later on I'll see if I can make VP work with 2 LedWiz boards. If not I'm looking into using PINterface, http://www.millisoft...nterface_en.php, for my next build.

For Gyruss the LedWiz solution was OK because the table was designed to work with 32 outputs.

Yeah, I was wondering about that as well... From what I can count on WOOLY - I'll need approx. 80 controllable outputs for the solenoids and lamps. From the LEDWIZ website it looks like you can chain multiple LEDWIZ's together - you just have to make sure each unit has it's own identifier (1,2,3, etc.). Hopefully it's pretty straightforward chaining them - can't wait to hear how it goes for you!

[rosve]

It shouldnt be very difficult to make my LedWizToolBox control 2 or more boards but it must be tested before I can say. I will not be able to do this until February next year.
But I guess you will be pretty occupied with building the playfield for quite some time before the output boards are needed .

Don't want to spoil the fun but, you will have to re-design some parts of the playfield to make it work as a real pin. One example is the upper level playfield where you must find a way to fit the flipper and target mechs in without interfering with the ramp and lower playfield (or the ZEUS lights). The real mechanical parts are rather large and limits what can be done.
This is all part of the process I guess, I had to make several design changes on my Gyruss pin during the build because the ball behaves very differentlly in real life compared to in VP.

[T-800]

It shouldnt be very difficult to make my LedWizToolBox control 2 or more boards but it must be tested before I can say. I will not be able to do this until February next year.
But I guess you will be pretty occupied with building the playfield for quite some time before the output boards are needed .

Don't want to spoil the fun but, you will have to re-design some parts of the playfield to make it work as a real pin. One example is the upper level playfield where you must find a way to fit the flipper and target mechs in without interfering with the ramp and lower playfield (or the ZEUS lights). The real mechanical parts are rather large and limits what can be done.
This is all part of the process I guess, I had to make several design changes on my Gyruss pin during the build because the ball behaves very differentlly in real life compared to in VP.

Spoil my fun as much as you can!! I'd rather hear about the issues and concerns now rather than later. I'm guessing there are going to be a large number of tweaks on the layout.

As for the Zeus upper playfield I was a little worried about that as well. Thank goodness for 3D CAD though... I've already modeled the switches and flipper assemblies that go under the playfield and have mounted them in 3D space to see how they'll lay out in the real world. As of right now everything is looking like it will fit - but it's getting pretty tight with the glass... As I've learned from my career though - the proof is in the pudding, I'll only really know once I get real parts put together! My other concern is the area under Zeus himself - three drop target assemblies and another VUK in that small region may be a little tricky... may end up having to compromise on a simpler design in that region.

[rosve]

Figuring all that out is also very rewarding when you get it right.
Will you be able to mount all the lamp holders needed on the middle playfield, looks very tight as well

[T-800]

Figuring all that out is also very rewarding when you get it right.
Will you be able to mount all the lamp holders needed on the middle playfield, looks very tight as well

Still have yet to model those in CAD to see how they'll fit.

[Aurich]

I didn't realize people were attempting actual from-scratch builds, that's awesome. Have you seen this blog yet? http://poormanspinball.blogspot.com He's building a Bioshock themed pin from scratch. Might be some useful info to be gleaned from his process.

[kruge99]

My best suggestion, search out these real world pins in your area: Black Knight, Solar Fire and Black Knight 2000 which have upper and lower playfields. Like Rosve said, the "underside" has a big impact on what goes on above the lower playfield and below the upper playfield.

I can't wait to see some real-life pics of WOOLY!!

Best Regards,
Todd.

[EalaDubhSidhe]

General rule of thumb: if you have an upper playfield, you can't place any mechanics related to it over any switches or mechanics under the lower field. Similarly, avoid placing lamps or switches over any areas that require space underneath for the ball to travel through.

A good asset for this project is going to be somebody with 3D modelling and rendering skills in SolidWorks or the like - that's what manufacturers prefer these days rather than CAD drawings.

Edited by EalaDubhSidhe, 09 November 2012 - 08:14 AM.

[oooPLAYER1ooo]

look at arduino to control your pin, with enough skill i bet it could run your whole setup including a dmd

i have used it with a flash program at work and it interfaced very easy, so maybe you can create your dmd in flash.

another option is to talk to badboybill at hyperspin, he may be even able to implement hyperdmd to be the software for your dmd as it converts everything into the right format.

[hassanchop]

my honest and humble opinion:
i love woo, i play it all the time! the other day i even reached the wizard mode (at least i think i did, beated all the gods...)
but if you are gonna try to do a real table i really think you should try for a more simple table.
woo has 6 flippers, big long ramps, a million targets, a million lanes and switches, upper pf etc...
the table is way too complicated for you to try to do this. if it were me i would try to go for a simple table, like afm, mb etc
this means you would have to make another one for vp…. yes! but that is what all of us are wating!!! heheheheh

[s1500]

Have you hit up AxMan for parts? They have some switches(and probably other things I haven't discovered yet) that just might be playfield-worthy.

Rollover switches? Paperclips!

[T-800]

General rule of thumb: if you have an upper playfield, you can't place any mechanics related to it over any switches or mechanics under the lower field. Similarly, avoid placing lamps or switches over any areas that require space underneath for the ball to travel through.

A good asset for this project is going to be somebody with 3D modelling and rendering skills in SolidWorks or the like - that's what manufacturers prefer these days rather than CAD drawings.

Thanks for the advice Eala, I'll make sure to watch for that. As for finding a good 3D modeller, luckily I have a resource - me! I've been working with Solidworks and Pro-Engineer (now Creo) for the last 15 years and over 10,000 hours. It's so cool creating real, 3D parts that you can assemble and use the software to determine clearances, geometric tolerances, taking a cross-section at any given point in the model or assembly to see how things are shaping up. And at the end of the day you have a usable BOM (bill of materials) and can generate engineering drawings from them to make real parts, or even fancier - send the 3D models for rapid prototyping either to a 3D printer or a CNC.

I didn't realize people were attempting actual from-scratch builds, that's awesome. Have you seen this blog yet? http://poormanspinball.blogspot.com He's building a Bioshock themed pin from scratch. Might be some useful info to be gleaned from his process.

I have not seen that build!! Thanks for the link, his project looks awesome - lots of information there to learn from.

look at arduino to control your pin, with enough skill i bet it could run your whole setup including a dmd

i have used it with a flash program at work and it interfaced very easy, so maybe you can create your dmd in flash.

another option is to talk to badboybill at hyperspin, he may be even able to implement hyperdmd to be the software for your dmd as it converts everything into the right format.

Looks like the guy making the bioshock pin is using an Arduino... I may have to investigate that more closely. Thanks for the tip on badboybill and hyperdmd, I'll be sure to check that out too.

my honest and humble opinion:
i love woo, i play it all the time! the other day i even reached the wizard mode (at least i think i did, beated all the gods...)
but if you are gonna try to do a real table i really think you should try for a more simple table.
woo has 6 flippers, big long ramps, a million targets, a million lanes and switches, upper pf etc...
the table is way too complicated for you to try to do this. if it were me i would try to go for a simple table, like afm, mb etc
this means you would have to make another one for vp…. yes! but that is what all of us are wating!!! heheheheh

1. I love that you love WOOLY. I've never made it to the final wizard mode - nice job. After playing it for a while, I still really enjoy it, but I've found there are quite a few tweaks and additional hurry ups/modes that I'd like to implement in WOOLY's next release to make it even better - I'd also like to add a few more sounds and pinball noises... seems a little lacking on that end.
2. Yes, this project is ambitious - but I've never really liked working on simple projects. What's the worst that can happen, I fail and end up with a grand worth of parts in my basement that I end up using as replacement parts on my other real pins? Worth the risk. But I do understand what your driving at... When I build this I'm going to take it in stages and get individual sections working to help the debug process and eventually combine it all together into one homogeneous pin. Part of me figures if you can get one flipper working why not two, or even six?! I'd also like to point out that WOOLY was my first VP table and I think that turned out ok considering how ambitious that was too. (although that was in major part due to one awesome member of this community and all the other help provided).

With that in mind, with all of you guys here to tell me what I'm doing wrong and right, how can I fail? In anycase, thanks for the feedback and please keep it coming!

[hassanchop]

but I've never really liked working on simple projects.

what i meant was the project being more or less ambitious as nothing to do with the pinner being simple or complicated. for example look at AFM, very very simple table but one of the best ever.
i meant it as in real pinball vs visual pinball. in vp the table rocks, it's amazing. you can do whatever you want and still it is something realistic and possible in real world. but lets face it, a table like woo is as complicated as tspp, or even woz…. but the guys who made those were about 100 guys and all pros in the industry ahahhah
so it is not about going for a less chalenging project, it is about going for a project that won't take you 20 years or drive you nuts

anyway, you are not doing more originals for vp?

and yes i love woo!! really deep rules and nice design, and the fact that you hear call outs with instructions really helps because there are no lights for so much rules hahahaha

[T-800]

but I've never really liked working on simple projects.

what i meant was the project being more or less ambitious as nothing to do with the pinner being simple or complicated. for example look at AFM, very very simple table but one of the best ever.
i meant it as in real pinball vs visual pinball. in vp the table rocks, it's amazing. you can do whatever you want and still it is something realistic and possible in real world. but lets face it, a table like woo is as complicated as tspp, or even woz…. but the guys who made those were about 100 guys and all pros in the industry ahahhah
so it is not about going for a less chalenging project, it is about going for a project that won't take you 20 years or drive you nuts

anyway, you are not doing more originals for vp?

and yes i love woo!! really deep rules and nice design, and the fact that you hear call outs with instructions really helps because there are no lights for so much rules hahahaha

Ahhhh... now I get it. Uh yeah... WOOLY is ambitious from the rule set perspective (but I think that's what makes it fun). It is ironic how AFM is overall pretty simple, but is, IMO, one of the best pins ever. I never get tired of playing it. Who knows, maybe I'll end up with a hybrid version of WOOLY to start with that is easier to code and get working.

[Aurich]

Aim for the stars, there's nothing riding on success or failure, it's all about the process and journey.

Do you have any use for a 3D printer for all of this? I'm helping my company unload a prev gen MakerBot (new and unused, we're going to buy the new one instead to write about) and we're letting go of it for pretty dirt cheap if you were looking for one with all that 3D experience:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=281020014491

It's pretty niche stuff, I don't expect a bidding war, so might be able to really undercut the cost. (Price matters not to me, I'm just listing it for us, I'll use the cash to fund part of the new purchase and expense whatever the difference is, all on Condé Nast's dime whatever the final price is.)

[EalaDubhSidhe]

Oh yes - and get yourself a close-knit team to work with that can co-ordinate with each other properly and explore different ideas and directions thoroughly. It's a nightmare without one.

[EalaDubhSidhe]

Actually, where WOOLY may turn out to be most 'ambitious' may be cost and space. For a start, you have six flippers there, and each one needs its own coil and mounting. Those things aren't small - in fact each of those will be one of the biggest under-playfield items you'll have to accomodate, and a Williams one looks like this - http://www.marcospec...parts/A-15205-L . You can judge the mech space of a pop bumper reasonably well with its own cap circumference, but you can't do anything like that with a flipper (the mech, fortunately, can be rotated to any angle relative to the flipper, which is a lifesaver for a number of Stern games), or a slingshot arm (the kicker mech has to go in front). Take a look at Steve Ritchie's original Avatar blueprint - http://media.nerdble...r Mix_final.jpg - and you can see immediately how complex this exercise is going to be. You should always take it as read that there will be things you'll have to trim back - myself, I'd cut the middle left flipper altogether, since the kicker hole shot is all it will aim at - the extreme VP physics effects where the flipper can make the right orbit and the right ramp shot, you manifestly cannot count on those - and move the targets and kicker around to let the lower flippers shoot at them all.

The customary way to go with this kind of exercise is to re-use the shell of an old cab and make a playfield of the size to fit it - that's how we did it with the Circe whitewood (nobody's going to miss one less broken Hurricane in the world), and it's worth doing because you're already working to certain industry standards regarding sizes and measurements which you should familiarize yourself with fully. If you have a choice, butcher a Williams rather than a Stern - the extra inch length (46" vs 45") can make a big difference.

Speaking of which: the VP version of WOOLY is 964 x 2108 VP units. Assuming 48 units to one inch (it's actually 47 according to the ball, but I'm pretty sure JPSalas uses 48 for mathematical convenience - much easier to break down into fractions for measurements), then the real-world size is 20.083 x 43.917 inches. The width is only marginally smaller than a proper Williams game, but you've got two extra inches of length to throw into the mix if you want to make it Williams-sized. Now, obviously you want to keep as much as possible to the shot geometry the game already has, since you can be confident of how well it's going to work; and the existing playfield art must look good to the eye, and that means not stretching its current width/height ratio. But all that's totally cool, because it's the top part of the playfield where you'll want to employ that extra length in this game - use those two inches at the top to open out the area with the pops, give yourself extra room for that upper flipper to shoot at the mini-loop (you may well need to adjust the flipper position a bit), and above all, seperate the pops as much as possible from the Olympus mini-playfield.

My observations are that you're almost certainly going to have to make major allowances for the Olympus mini-field anyway, because as it stands with the ramp leading up to it, the shafts for both flippers will have to pass through to under the main playfield with the rest of the mechs, and that means in between the pops. What I would do is change the shot to it from that upper flipper. Lose that ramp and make it an outer loop that merges with the orbit; terminate the inner loop with a VUK entry, a close distance to the Olympus playfield entry; and move the seperation point between those two shots much further back from the flipper itself. This can potentially solve two issues. One: pulling the shots away from the flipper means the flipper angle difference to shooting each one becomes much less extreme. It'll certainly make the shots work better on a real game, so even without issue two, I'd do this anyway. And two: if a VUK sends the ball to the Olympus playfield instead of a ramp shot, then as long as you can mount the Olympus playfield properly and make it a shade longer with the extra playfield length, then you may be able to make it large enough and high enough above the main field that the flipper mechs can mount directly onto its underside and still have room for the ball to pass through underneath. Not guaranteed, but if that works it'll save you having to totally re-evaluate where and how it's going to fit.