51 replies to this topic

[Aaron James]

Hello VP community,

Before I go any further, I want to preface that I mean NO disrespect to any of the authors of the games/recreations. I sincerely appreciate all you do...all the time and effort put into this hobby.
My gift in the pinball community is not design or building pins, but "tweeking" them to simply play better.
I know everyone has their own ideas & ideals when it comes to what makes a realistic playing emulation.
I have come up with a "template" if you will , that will work on MOST FS pinballs.
Hopefully this will help some people out there who maybe don't play a certain game to often because they cringe at the settings, and just don't know
how or what to touch/change for fear they may mess it up.
Truthfully, visual pinball CAN be very tedious and frustrating at times...but also VERY rewarding and satisfying.
Here is what i have been changing most of my tables to :

=============================================================================================

Options + Backdrop

Gravity Constant = 1.6774
Contact Friction = .0025
Contact Scatter Angle = .5
Dampening Speed = Between MOST of the time 45 through 75.
Dampening Friction = .95

Options

Table Slope Min Difficulty = 6
Table Slope Max Difficulty = 6
Global Difficulty Level = .5

Flipper Settings

Speed = .25 (if you are changing an upper playfield flipper to hit a ramp, change to .45. If not, leave as is.)
Strength = .5 (if you are changing an upper playfield flipper to hit a ramp, change also to .45. If not, leave as is.)
Elasticity = .5
Scatter Angle = 0
Return Strength = .07
Recoil Velocity = 25
Power Law = 2
Oblique Correction = 4.5

Plunger Settings --> Tricky sometimes. Start with the following settings, then decrease from stroke length 180 down to 90 til you get the desired outcome.

Pull Speed = 1
Release Speed = 110
Stroke Length = 180

=============================================================================================

When you have tables that have the same settings, each table on your cab will feel like the next.
You'll feel like when you aim for a shot properly, you'll make it. Plus, you can "backhand" alot of shots now as well...or do a flipper pass.
Instead of always trying to change flipper settings for each game, now all you have to do is :

1) Play with dampening speed (usually between 45-75).
The lower the number, the slower the ball goes. The higher a number, the faster the ball with go around ramps and loops.
2) Per game, you may have to adjust the starting/ending position of each flipper if shot does not line up correctly, but you never have to touch the actual flipper physics!
Most games, the flippers start/end positions are already "OK".

*I hope the above template maybe helps some pinball enthusiasts out there.
Also, if any of you need help with cabinet magna save buttons to work correctly (especially for "Virtual Pin" cabinets from Noah Fentz), i can help you with correct scripting to get them to work for ya.
I will never distribute my unofficial work, but this way some of you might learn how to understand Visual Pinball a little bit better, and make playing pinball a more pleasant experience!!!

Long live VP !!!

Aaron James

[JohnnyDoe]

I'm testing this out on JP's white water. Most of the settings were already identical. Lets see if I can backhand it up the ramp. I will get back to you on that

[CaptainNeo]

your Oblique Correction = 4.5 is a little off. I found that having it this low, a lot of ramp shots in certain places, will not be like a real machine. 6.5 to 7.5 is a more realistic setting for angled ramp shots to hit like a real machine.

Plus your playfield friction and gravity should be different for early solid state and em games. They should not play as fast as a DMD game. They play completely different, and much slower and floaty. Flippers are more sluggish and weaker. that's the way all my Early SS and Em's play, and that's the way I set them up in VP. DMD's and clearcoated playfield games, use your settings the way you have them.

[thewool]

Good concept post Aaron

however as you mentioned I think any carte blanche settings such as these should be only be considered a rough first pass to start from. There are so many other VP table elements which affect the flipper settings that it's impossible to assign one set, never mind the style/era that the original table was set in.

Like you I also like to tinker with physics a lot to try and mimic the groove of the ball flow/movement and randomness. The settings you mentioned are one element, flipper length/angle another, elasticity of key table objects being just as critical, and it goes on... Honestly some tables I can never get there, mainly because of the size of the VP table, so i also think it's fun to have VP physics which don't necessarily emulate the real pin but instead let the VP table dance.

One quick point, I don't think your global difficult setting would make any difference. If I understand it correctly the min/max is a range with the difficulty being a set point. e..g min 6, max 6.5, difficulty 0.5 would mean an actual slope of 6.25

Also if you want some natural variation in your flipper settings a scatter angle of 0 won't have any effect.

Cheers

[kruge99]

One quick point, I don't think your global difficult setting would make any difference. If I understand it correctly the min/max is a range with the difficulty being a set point. e..g min 6, max 6.5, difficulty 0.5 would mean an actual slope of 6.25

And to add further to this point, if min and max difficulty are the same number, as in your example, '6', then the global difficulty factor is not calculated. I believe this was explained by Destruk some time ago.


Best Regards,
Todd.

[unclewilly]

I appreciate your findings. In fact they are quite close to my starter table.
I have a hard time with the flippers. In fact i usually ask the woool to tweak my tables as i tend to make them too easy.

I agree with the others though that it is simply not possible to put a set of standard settings out as all machines play differently.

But it is a great starting point

Thank you

[hassanchop]

great post! thnks

i am constantly trying to tweek my tables to make'm more real.
the biggest issue i always have is the direction that the flipper shoots the ball.
but i don't know what most of the setting mean so i will just try yours

[Aaron James]

Great discussion guys. I actually agree with what a lot of you have added/suggested
"making the game your own" is one of the things I love about vp.
Interesting point about the em vs. dmd tables.
Sometimes I feel there is so much to learn about vp and just not enough time lol.
Yes, ip's new white waters settings are very close to this template.
Ok... Enough jibber jabber...time to play more pinball! Haha

[jpsalas]

I think flipper settings are the things that are more difficult to adjust in VP, maybe because there are so many parameters. I have tried all the numbers you can imagine, from speeds of 0,002 to speeds of over 3. All i found out is that nearly any combination of speed and strength will do, you just need to find the balance between them. It can't never be so difficult in real life since a flipper is just a solenoid, isn't it? How difficult can it be?


After many years trying to adjust the flippers in VP, I found out that the speed adjusts the "power" at the base of the flipper, and the strength adjusts the "power" at the tip.
The more speed the more stronger will be the flipper at its base.
The more strength the more powerful will be the tip of the flipper.

By adjusting these two parameters you can find a balance between how powerful you want your flippers. The more speed the less strength, and the more strength the less speed.

The rest of parameters are a kind of "bonus" for fine tuning the flippers. This has been discussed before so I'll be short, the values are the ones I use in my latest tables, but they may vary depending of the strength and speed of the flippers and of the slope of the table.

Elasticity from 0.4 to 0.7 (just like rubbers, depending of how bouncy you want your flippers)

Scatter angle 0 (or if you prefer FP like flippers then you put 50, hahaha not my words, but Noah's words, hahaha... ok serious now )

Return Strength under 1, you want a lower speed so you can make passes from one flipper to another. A fast speed will make the flippers return to its rest position very fast and when you hit the button again they will be too powerful, making passes quite difficult.

Recoil Velocity start with 25 and change it so it fits what you want. I found out that this value has to do with how strong are the flippers in the up position, so when a ball hits them in the up position then they will move a little down. The higher the value the stronger are the flippers in the up position. This is a kind of bonus if you want the flippers a little more "real" like. You can put a 0 and this feature is turned off.

Power law just use 2. This is the relation between the mass of the flipper and the mass of the ball. What means is that if the value is under 2 then it will look like the flippers are made of light plastic. You'll notice two things with a value under 2: one the flippers are less powerful so you'll need to increase the strength, and second, the ball will fall almost dead unto the flipper when it hits the flipper.

Oblique correction start at 4 and change up/down according to where the targets are. The higher the value the more to the center will they shoot. This was added because the old VP had a lot of trouble shooting at the center of the table. The stronger the flipper the less oblique correction you need.

In the VP9.1.x guide you'll find longer explanations about these parameters.

JP

Edited by jpsalas, 20 September 2012 - 04:48 PM.

[Aaron James]

Great insight jp. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
You really outlined a lot of key elements that will help others out there.
Yea... who knew replicating a solenoid could be so hard!!! Lol
Also, very funny FP comment.

Cheers,
Aaron

[rob046]

I like these discussions & I know I've spent what feels like an eternity trying to master VP9 physics as well, & I've been tweaking since the VP6 days. Also, I've also been trying to find those perfect universal settings, but for whatever reasons, it just doesn't happen. What works for one table that seems like it should work for other similar tables... it just never seems to work that way. I will do use certain settings as a starting point (universal settings) but some things always needs tweaked it seems.

& so rather than blindly slapping on universal physics settings, in some cases you may be better off sticking with the author's settings, or only tweaking parameters you know won't screw with the table. For example, when you mess with slope or gravity, that can upset things like kickouts or VUK's to where they may not even work properly, so I ALWAYS keep an original copy of the table. Why don't universal settings always work? IDK, I guess aside from VP just acting funny sometimes, I think a lot of it just has to do with the differences in how each author might build a table. Also, just minor differences in flipper style can indeed change things. Also, when dealing with older tables with the fatter flippers, sometimes those are the toughest to properly tweak & play like the real thing, & can use quite different settings to achieve it compared to modern tables.

JP does a great job above of explaining VP's flipper settings & what they do. Though even though we understand how the settings work, that still doesn't make it easy to find the best settings sometimes. I put a lot of work into coming up with the settings that I do lately & am pretty happy with them but there always seems to be some room for improvement on certain tables. People still have their own preferences on how they want games to play. & even in real life the same table can play differently depending on how it is sloped or which rubbers it is using. I do still think there is a small-ish window for how a table should play, but there is always a little flexibility there for some personal preference on these things.

There are a lot of settings to mess with, & so I recommend that people who just want to do basic & quick tweaking to only focus on a few of the ones that are effective, but also aren't likely to break anything with the game. Oblique correction is safe to mess with, speed or strength is safe to an extent (but be careful because like JP said, if things get too out of balance there the flippers will play like crap).
Small changes in slope can be safe usually, like if the change is only say .5 then you probably don't have to worry about breaking anything. Rubber elasticity is safe to mess with.

I love VP9 for all its tweak-ability. It is definitely now an art-form to get tables to play like you want. & it isn't always very easy, but it is very rewarding & you get a very enjoyable game when you come close to what you were trying to do. & I'm pretty anal with this stuff, & I try very hard to make all shots & techniques in real life possible in VP. This is a very tricky thing to do though, VERY tricky in some cases, & you never get "perfect" results but can get close enough to be satisfied I guess. VP isn't perfect.
Sometimes I guess I'm tempted to start a thread like this & sharing my own settings, but yeah there is just too many variables to come up with a concrete list, IMHO.

Some settings are universally good though (like white rubber elasticity, things like that), & some are semi-universally good if that makes any sense (such as a certain Williams flipper that uses a certain coil could probably keep using the same setting). The VP9 editor is open, so if somebody likes how a certain table plays, then obviously they can go in & look at the settings used & figure out what they like. Ideally though, the authors continue to do good jobs with this to where most people don't see a need to tweak most tables very much.
I still think this thread can be helpful to some ppl though if they are just starting out with tweaking. Maybe even more important, before getting into advanced tweaking, is to be sure what all the different settings do. Understanding them is half the battle, maybe even more than half. Then once they are understood, & you understand some of the do's & dont's... you are off to a great start. & luckily since VP9 has been out a while now, most or all of the answers are already out there for people.

[Aaron James]

Rob,
Great discussion man.
Im happy we could have a calm and informative discussion about such an important area of vp!
Sometimes these threads get stupid.
I really enjoy these responses, because I feel most people are scared to play around with vp settings out of fear of failure.

[chas]

Hello VP community,

Before I go any further, I want to preface that I mean NO disrespect to any of the authors of the games/recreations. I sincerely appreciate all you do...all the time and effort put into this hobby.
My gift in the pinball community is not design or building pins, but "tweeking" them to simply play better.
I know everyone has their own ideas & ideals when it comes to what makes a realistic playing emulation.
I have come up with a "template" if you will , that will work on MOST FS pinballs.
Hopefully this will help some people out there who maybe don't play a certain game to often because they cringe at the settings, and just don't know
how or what to touch/change for fear they may mess it up.
Truthfully, visual pinball CAN be very tedious and frustrating at times...but also VERY rewarding and satisfying.
Here is what i have been changing most of my tables to :

=============================================================================================

Options + Backdrop

Gravity Constant = 1.6774
Contact Friction = .0025
Contact Scatter Angle = .5
Dampening Speed = Between MOST of the time 45 through 75.
Dampening Friction = .95

Options

Table Slope Min Difficulty = 6
Table Slope Max Difficulty = 6
Global Difficulty Level = .5

Flipper Settings

Speed = .25 (if you are changing an upper playfield flipper to hit a ramp, change to .45. If not, leave as is.)
Strength = .5 (if you are changing an upper playfield flipper to hit a ramp, change also to .45. If not, leave as is.)
Elasticity = .5
Scatter Angle = 0
Return Strength = .07
Recoil Velocity = 25
Power Law = 2
Oblique Correction = 4.5

Plunger Settings --> Tricky sometimes. Start with the following settings, then decrease from stroke length 180 down to 90 til you get the desired outcome.

Pull Speed = 1
Release Speed = 110
Stroke Length = 180

=============================================================================================

When you have tables that have the same settings, each table on your cab will feel like the next.
You'll feel like when you aim for a shot properly, you'll make it. Plus, you can "backhand" alot of shots now as well...or do a flipper pass.
Instead of always trying to change flipper settings for each game, now all you have to do is :

1) Play with dampening speed (usually between 45-75).
The lower the number, the slower the ball goes. The higher a number, the faster the ball with go around ramps and loops.
2) Per game, you may have to adjust the starting/ending position of each flipper if shot does not line up correctly, but you never have to touch the actual flipper physics!
Most games, the flippers start/end positions are already "OK".

*I hope the above template maybe helps some pinball enthusiasts out there.
Also, if any of you need help with cabinet magna save buttons to work correctly (especially for "Virtual Pin" cabinets from Noah Fentz), i can help you with correct scripting to get them to work for ya.
I will never distribute my unofficial work, but this way some of you might learn how to understand Visual Pinball a little bit better, and make playing pinball a more pleasant experience!!!

Long live VP !!!

Aaron James

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Flipper Settings

Speed = .25 (if you are changing an upper playfield flipper to hit a ramp, change to .45. If not, leave as is.)
Strength = .5 (if you are changing an upper playfield flipper to hit a ramp, change also to .45. If not, leave as is.)
Elasticity = .5
Scatter Angle = 0
Return Strength = .07
Recoil Velocity = 25
Power Law = 2
Oblique Correction = 4.5

chas>>>>>>there are several ways to do the flippers physics......it also depends on your scaling of the flippers......i do the flippers like this for FS...
iif you want try strength on 5, speed 0.08, Plaw 2, OBlique on 0 and recoil velocity on 0.
recoil velocity is similar to OBlique....wind it up and play.....shut it down back to editor to make changes.
sometimes strength 4, and 0.08....
my OB settings are around -2 to 2..... sometimes more less.....recoil velocity on 0
strength 5 speed will be 0.08, 0.09, 0.1, 0.11 and 0.16 sometimes higher.


Plunger Settings --> Tricky sometimes. Start with the following settings, then decrease from stroke length 180 down to 90 til you get the desired outcome.

Pull Speed = 1
Release Speed = 110
Stroke Length = 180

chas>>>>>for FS.....pull 5-7 and release 200 sometimes more to jet the ball up the plunger launch.....
general play of the table, flippers, slings and bumpers should play at or a little below a speed the eye can see.
just my opinion with the real PB i did play and VP for 4yrs.

Edited by chas, 26 October 2012 - 04:58 AM.

[Harakiri]

I hate technicalities but i feel there's something wrong when i play Whitewater. I find LOTR flipper settings much better (if not accurate) for aiming purposes.
I want to be as close as the real thing as possible, should i tweak whitewater flippers?

[chas]

I hate technicalities but i feel there's something wrong when i play Whitewater. I find LOTR flipper settings much better (if not accurate) for aiming purposes.
I want to be as close as the real thing as possible, should i tweak whitewater flippers?

chas>>>>>i dunno H...if you want to make changes you need to learn how to use the editor....read the user guide....thats how i started.

[zany]

An import/export option of these settings would be awesome.

[DJRobX]

I hate technicalities but i feel there's something wrong when i play Whitewater. I find LOTR flipper settings much better (if not accurate) for aiming purposes.
I want to be as close as the real thing as possible, should i tweak whitewater flippers?

 

I find Whitewater's lower flippers to be pretty darn similar to the real Whitewater I played at CAX this year.    It's slightly harder than it should be to hit the lock shot, but I hit it often enough not to be frustrated.    The upper flipper area seems like it's too "bouncy" - on the real machines I played, if you miss the shot, it usually rolls out.   You can't play "pong" until you hit one of the two ramps.    TPA's version does the same thing though, LOL.

[fuzzel]

An import/export option of these settings would be awesome.

great discussion! and a nice idea let's see how this can be added into the editor One fast idea I have for import/export of physical settings is: I could add two menu items to the context menu for each element. Clicking on them would export/import the complete element or just the physics?

[toxie]

just a reminder: i also added the global physics settings lately, just for this kind of stuff..

so set the physics up once (or for each hardware generation, etc), then simply select the physics set you want on a per flipper and/or playfield basis..

 

maybe you could add something that copies the settings of a table element to one of these sets in this global physics dialog?

(and also the other way round as a bonus?)

[StevOz]

Truly I feel a gravity setting of Gravity Constant = 1.6774 is unrealistic and find 1.55 to be more realistic of course this means you need to up the slope a bit to from 6 to 6.67 - 6.75.